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If you had evidence

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But because my faith manifests works to me that is evidence.
Let's not be conceited, faith is useless after testing and proving a concept. I'll go as far as saying that faith and evidence is mutually exclusive, and works are not limited in scope or depth by anyone with a belief system.
 
Loyal
Let's not be conceited, faith is useless after testing and proving a concept. I'll go as far as saying that faith and evidence is mutually exclusive, and works are not limited in scope or depth by anyone with a belief system.
Is it conceit to stand on what has been proven to oneself? No, I cannot prove God and the pathway of faith to you while you abide in your delusions, but I really do know someone who can. Is it your job to teach or preach man's way as the best way? If so perhaps you should look more closely at what it is you are preaching... and what man has really done for himself.

Many people on a daily basis, Christian or not, get into their motor vehicles without really understanding how the thing works and go through the steps they have believed will result in ignition and successful transportation. Presumption or knowledge or faith?

Science has always presumed that certain things will work in a certain way and have built on that which they have described as the scientific method. That is really faith, and sometimes they have proven wrong that which they believed to be tried and true. To me the whole thing is the fiction of man's which appears to be substantial. That which is substantial is that which we have found in the Hope which God has placed before the eyes and ears of some.

What does a blind man see? What does a deaf man hear?
 
Active
If we understand what the fullness of what faith means then the substance and evidence is made clear. By the Word of God we know that faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God: But hearing is much more than mere listening, rather it is to accept and submit to and rely upon the Word of God, and no we need not to have a scholastically achieving explanation as to what the word "hear" means; such is needed only for those which have not received the Holy Ghost. But if we behold faith as we know it comes only by submitting to and relying upon the Word of God; therefore it is submitting to and relying upon the Word of God which is the actual "substance of things hoped for"; likewise submitting to and relying upon the Word of God is the "evidence of things not seen": and yes we need faith, because faith comes only by submitting to and relying upon the Word of God; and that "whatsoever is not of faith is sin".
 
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Staff Member
Let's not be conceited, faith is useless after testing and proving a concept. I'll go as far as saying that faith and evidence is mutually exclusive, and works are not limited in scope or depth by anyone with a belief system.
Hello @floor7

It's kind of like saying. I've finished nailing on this project, so I'll throw away the hammer because the task is accomplished. Don't use a hammer for a while and one who has fatten a thumb (me :smile: ) takes a greater care in any future uses and frequency as well! Faith is very similar, yet could have even greater consequences to the one who has been granted it if not used or misused/misdirected.

So a couple of verses to show that faith was necessary for the evidence to be observable. You will see that that faith preceded the evidence.

Then Jesus said to her, "O woman, your faith is great; it shall be done for you as you wish." And her daughter was healed at once. Matthew 15:28

And when Jesus entered Capernaum, a centurion came to Him, imploring Him, 6 and saying, "Lord, my servant is lying paralyzed at home, fearfully tormented." 7 Jesus said to him, "I will come and heal him." 8 But the centurion said, "Lord, I am not worthy for You to come under my roof, but just say the word, and my servant will be healed. 9 "For I also am a man under authority, with soldiers under me; and I say to this one, 'Go!' and he goes, and to another, 'Come!' and he comes, and to my slave, 'Do this!' and he does it." 10 Now when Jesus heard this, He marveled and said to those who were following, "Truly I say to you, I have not found such great faith with anyone in Israel. ... 13 And Jesus said to the centurion, "Go; it shall be done for you as you have believed." And the servant was healed that very moment. Matthew 8:5-10,13

"And on the basis of faith in His name, it is the name of Jesus which has strengthened this man whom you see and know; and the faith which comes through Him has given him this perfect health in the presence of you all. Acts 3:16

The following verse shows that the lack of faith can also inhibit and at times prevent the evidence from occurring.

And He did not do many miracles there because of their unbelief. Matthew 13:58

If you notice with the following verses there is direct correlation between belief, faith and observable evidence.

When He entered the house, the blind men came up to Him, and Jesus said to them, "Do you believe that I am able to do this?" They said to Him, "Yes, Lord." 29 Then He touched their eyes, saying, "It shall be done to you according to your faith." Matthew 9:28-29

"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. John 3:16

And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him. Hebrews 11:6

Of cause just the topic of faith, belief within Scriptures can provide more than what I have provided. I am not as learned as many here who could expound upon these areas quite expertly. I hope this helps see if at times not so clearly :smile: the relationship between faith, belief and the evidence found to be true by many.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.

Nick
<><
 
Administrator
Staff Member
Let's not be conceited, faith is useless after testing and proving a concept. I'll go as far as saying that faith and evidence is mutually exclusive, and works are not limited in scope or depth by anyone with a belief system.
Lets not be rude and assume someone is conceited just because you cannot comprehend or relate to his experience. That's not your call to make.

God, through apostle Paul explains what faith is, in Hebrews 11 entirely.


Faith in Action

1Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see. 2This is what the ancients were commended for.

3By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.

4By faith Abel brought God a better offering than Cain did. By faith he was commended as righteous, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by faith Abel still speaks, even though he is dead.

5By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death: “He could not be found, because God had taken him away.”a For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God. 6And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

7By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that is in keeping with faith.

8By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. 9By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise. 10For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God. 11And by faith even Sarah, who was past childbearing age, was enabled to bear children because sheb considered him faithful who had made the promise. 12And so from this one man, and he as good as dead, came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore.

13All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance, admitting that they were foreigners and strangers on earth. 14People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. 15If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. 16Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.

17By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. He who had embraced the promises was about to sacrifice his one and only son, 18even though God had said to him, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.”c 19Abraham reasoned that God could even raise the dead, and so in a manner of speaking he did receive Isaac back from death.

20By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau in regard to their future.

21By faith Jacob, when he was dying, blessed each of Joseph’s sons, and worshiped as he leaned on the top of his staff.

22By faith Joseph, when his end was near, spoke about the exodus of the Israelites from Egypt and gave instructions concerning the burial of his bones.

23By faith Moses’ parents hid him for three months after he was born, because they saw he was no ordinary child, and they were not afraid of the king’s edict.

24By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be known as the son of Pharaoh’s daughter. 25He chose to be mistreated along with the people of God rather than to enjoy the fleeting pleasures of sin. 26He regarded disgrace for the sake of Christ as of greater value than the treasures of Egypt, because he was looking ahead to his reward. 27By faith he left Egypt, not fearing the king’s anger; he persevered because he saw him who is invisible. 28By faith he kept the Passover and the application of blood, so that the destroyer of the firstborn would not touch the firstborn of Israel.

29By faith the people passed through the Red Sea as on dry land; but when the Egyptians tried to do so, they were drowned.

30By faith the walls of Jericho fell, after the army had marched around them for seven days.

31By faith the prostitute Rahab, because she welcomed the spies, was not killed with those who were disobedient.d

32And what more shall I say? I do not have time to tell about Gideon, Barak, Samson and Jephthah, about David and Samuel and the prophets, 33who through faith conquered kingdoms, administered justice, and gained what was promised; who shut the mouths of lions, 34quenched the fury of the flames, and escaped the edge of the sword; whose weakness was turned to strength; and who became powerful in battle and routed foreign armies. 35Women received back their dead, raised to life again. There were others who were tortured, refusing to be released so that they might gain an even better resurrection. 36Some faced jeers and flogging, and even chains and imprisonment. 37They were put to death by stoning;e they were sawed in two; they were killed by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated— 38the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, living in caves and in holes in the ground.

39These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised, 40since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.


Evidence is everywhere and the Holy Spirit reveals that to believers. However, if you have a stubborn attitude and a hardened heart what will you expect to be revealed to you or for you to even understand? Faith is trusting what God says in the bible, entirely and believing who He is.
 
Loyal
It is never smart to believe in something without having any "evidence" or "proof" to if's reality. Faith is the "evidence" of things not seen. Just because one can not see the evidence with their physical eyes, does not mean it can not be seen!!! Faith always see's the evidence not seen with the human eyes. How else is a Christian to see the things not seen in which we are commanded to see? ( 2 Cor 4:18 ) Faith simply does not use the physical "senses" as a means of believing, it uses the "senses" of rebirth human spirit to see invisible things. There is no such a thing as "blind" faith!!!
 
Member
Is it conceit to stand on what has been proven to oneself? No, I cannot prove God and the pathway of faith to you while you abide in your delusions, but I really do know someone who can. Is it your job to teach or preach man's way as the best way? If so perhaps you should look more closely at what it is you are preaching... and what man has really done for himself.

Many people on a daily basis, Christian or not, get into their motor vehicles without really understanding how the thing works and go through the steps they have believed will result in ignition and successful transportation. Presumption or knowledge or faith?

Science has always presumed that certain things will work in a certain way and have built on that which they have described as the scientific method. That is really faith, and sometimes they have proven wrong that which they believed to be tried and true. To me the whole thing is the fiction of man's which appears to be substantial. That which is substantial is that which we have found in the Hope which God has placed before the eyes and ears of some.

What does a blind man see? What does a deaf man hear?
You're speaking of faith acting on a persons emergence of unknown forces, an observable behaviour in our species. Religious faith on the other hand is something different.
 
Loyal
You're speaking of faith acting on a persons emergence of unknown forces, an observable behaviour in our species. Religious faith on the other hand is something different.
Oh, I do know what the forces are even if I am at the moment unable to perceive them clearly:

"For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." I Cor 13:12

What I see is likely to be somewhat different than what other believers see because where we are and what we are and are or are to be in the Body of Christ.
 
Member
Oh, I do know what the forces are even if I am at the moment unable to perceive them clearly:

"For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." I Cor 13:12

What I see is likely to be somewhat different than what other believers see because where we are and what we are and are or are to be in the Body of Christ.
You see Amadeus, people use the term (Faith) to identify their particular belief system.

Faith is hope acting on unforeseeable circumstances.
 
Loyal
You see Amadeus, people use the term (Faith) to identify their particular belief system.

Faith is hope acting on unforeseeable circumstances.
I do try to use the word faith as a synonym of the word belief, but I understand that other Christian believers may not do that so and as a result communication can be and is a problem. Of course more than communication is needed to accomplish God's purpose
 
Member
I do try to use the word faith as a synonym of the word belief, but I understand that other Christian believers may not do that so and as a result communication can be and is a problem. Of course more than communication is needed to accomplish God's purpose
What do these people want Amadeus, busy busy busy.

You know why there's no rest for the wicked?

It's because their so good.
 
Member
As Jesus said, "...There's none good but one, that is, God" Mark 10:18
I know what Jesus taught Amadeus and I've followed such teachings to my own detriment. In practical terms his stuff doesn't work. (It only keeps you safe) That's all it does. People assume it must work on that basis, but that's just presumption.
 
Loyal
I know what Jesus taught Amadeus and I've followed such teachings to my own detriment. In practical terms his stuff doesn't work. (It only keeps you safe) That's all it does. People assume it must work on that basis, but that's just presumption.
His "stuff" is not supposed to work in what people usually call "practical terms". Dead people cannot really see and really hear. Without the Life which Jesus is, in them, people are really dead even though they continue to walk around and talk. Makes you wonder who the "real zombies are.
 
Member
His "stuff" is not supposed to work in what people usually call "practical terms". Dead people cannot really see and really hear. Without the Life which Jesus is, in them, people are really dead even though they continue to walk around and talk. Makes you wonder who the "real zombies are.
Energy can neither be created nor destroyed Amadeus, so to say anything dies is a misinterpretation of the function of matter. Matter is recyclable, where as energy is changeable.
 
Loyal
Energy can neither be created nor destroyed Amadeus, so to say anything dies is a misinterpretation of the function of matter. Matter is recyclable, where as energy is changeable.
You are standing on man's presumptions and the presumptions of science my friend. If a man has lost the five natural senses [vision, hearing, smell, touch and taste], does he still exist and can he still have hope?

What if imaginary world is the one which men have built based on the perceptions of those five named natural senses, but the real world is the one which God allows men to perceive only by the Holy Spirit?
 
Member
You are standing on man's presumptions and the presumptions of science my friend. If a man has lost the five natural senses [vision, hearing, smell, touch and taste], does he still exist and can he still have hope?

What if imaginary world is the one which men have built based on the perceptions of those five named natural senses, but the real world is the one which God allows men to perceive only by the Holy Spirit?
There are six sense's (Emotions are a sense)
 
Loyal
There are six sense's (Emotions are a sense)
Are there? Does that seriously change anything I have said?

You seem to be wrapped up in your take on things, so why are you bothering people here? I could give you more details and explanations, but do you really care or are you interested in winning something?

Just because a person is unable to answer your questions doesn't mean that his faith in God is wrong. We are all frail human beings and all of us sometimes miss a point.

When we say it right, God's is speaking through us. When we say it wrong it could simply mean we haven't been paying attention as well as we should. But, you said you had been a believer, so your should already know that part... or did you fall short in your understanding of what it was you thought that you had?
 
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