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If the trinity is not true

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Active
I was thinking today how sad it is for those who don't believe in the trinity. One-day when they grasp this / are completely sold on the idea, I doubt they will stay Christians.

If the trinity is not true:

1. John 3:16 'For God so loved the world'. Should read 'For God found someone to love the world'.

2. 1 John 14:8 'God is love'. Should read 'God is not love'. As true love is John 15:13.

3. Worshipping Jesus would be breaking the first commandment.

4. We would doubt the truthfulness of what the Holy Spirit teaches us.

5. We would not feel very special / care much for serving God. He can't be bothered to die for us. He gets some random unlucky fella to die for us and then demands we die to self? He sends a random spirit to teach us? Can't be bothered to teach us?

I don't believe there is a need to post more. These 5 points alone show how we can take so many scriptures and just throw them out if the trinity is not true. Every scripture on God being good, just and loving will be doubted for starters. Exactly what the devil would want.
 
Loyal
"I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.

So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase." I Cor 3:6-7

Many years ago (at the age of 32 years in 1976) when I received the Holy Ghost, it was in a Oneness, Jesus Only assembly [specifically, UPC or United Pentecostal Church). I began to speak in unknown tongues while I was there. I read the Bible for the first time in my life while I was there. I danced in the Spirit for the first time while I was there. The family that won us to God set an example of living for God before my wife and I and everyone else like none we had ever seen any where before.

We haven't belonged one of those groups for nearly 30 years now, but I always hesitate to talk to strongly against something that does have something good in it and they do have some "good" in them. Jesus put it this way:

"...Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God." Mark 10:18

Does that mean there is no "good" in anyone on planet Earth? On the contrary, it simply means to me that anyone who has any real "good" in them has something of God in them, be they atheist, Muslim, Catholic or Pentecostal:

"And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us.

And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us." Luke 9:49-50

I am not saying that any or all of those places is where we should be, but each of us needs to learn where it is God wants us to be. Each of us needs to learn when it is "time to speak" and when it is "time to be silent" [see Ecc 3:7].

I am not saying that the OP has nothing good in it, [although I cannot say that I fully support what it seems to state], but let us get on top of the mountain before we begin to look down on others whose hearts we cannot see:

"But when thou art bidden, go and sit down in the lowest room; that when he that bade thee cometh, he may say unto thee, Friend, go up higher: then shalt thou have worship in the presence of them that sit at meat with thee." Luke 14:10

Who is on the top of the mountain with Jesus at every moment in every respect? Not me! Not yet!
 
Loyal
Does that mean there is no "good" in anyone on planet Earth? On the contrary, it simply means to me that anyone who has any real "good" in them has something of God in them, be they atheist, Muslim, Catholic or Pentecostal:
They may have "some" good in them. But are they saved just because they have "some" good?
(I do NOT include all Pentecostals in that question, only the Muslim's, Catholic's, and Atheist's).
Everyone one of us was created by God. We are all created in His image. In Him we have our
life, and breath and our being. But does that mean we are all good? ..and even if we are all
"good"... are we saved, if we don't follow Jesus and His teachings?

BTW.. many Pentecostals such as the FourSquare, Vineyard, and Assemblies of God...
do believe in the Trinity.
 
Active
Does that mean there is no "good" in anyone on planet Earth? On the contrary, it simply means to me that anyone who has any real "good" in them has something of God in them, be they atheist, Muslim, Catholic or Pentecostal:

"And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us.

And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us." Luke 9:49-50
I fully agree with this Amadeus. I teach this all the time ;).

I am jumping on a doctrine that is of the devil. Forgive me if it appears I am jumping on Christians. I used to be 50/50 on the trinity until I grasped the full implications.
 
Active
They may have "some" good in them. But are they saved just because they have "some" good?
(I do NOT include all Pentecostals in that question, only the Muslim's, Catholic's, and Atheist's).
Everyone one of us was created by God. We are all created in His image. In Him we have our
life, and breath and our being. But does that mean we are all good? ..and even if we are all
"good"... are we saved, if we don't follow Jesus and His teachings?

BTW.. many Pentecostals such as the FourSquare, Vineyard, and Assemblies of God...
do believe in the Trinity.
We can only judge by fruits. Good people are only judged by us as good as we discern good fruits. I guess the better a judge we are the less we may agree with others on who exactly is good.

But lets make no mistake anyone doing anything like James 1:27 is either a Christian or very close to being one. You cannot be selfless for long without running into Jesus.
 
Loyal
They may have "some" good in them. But are they saved just because they have "some" good?
(I do NOT include all Pentecostals in that question, only the Muslim's, Catholic's, and Atheist's).
Everyone one of us was created by God. We are all created in His image. In Him we have our
life, and breath and our being. But does that mean we are all good? ..and even if we are all
"good"... are we saved, if we don't follow Jesus and His teachings?

BTW.. many Pentecostals such as the FourSquare, Vineyard, and Assemblies of God...
do believe in the Trinity.
I know this well. I have visited all of the ones that had local assemblies where I lived. Years ago, on the Internet, I spent a lot of time discussing or debating this issue but my purpose was wrong.

As to the good, I have seen it people of persuasions where I have never been and am not likely to be. Are they saved? Most of them probably not, but that finally judgment is not mine in any case. What God has shown me is sometime something else again and unless He wants me to open my mouth I really work hard to keep it shut.

If people live Jesus' teachings without knowing his physical name ([Jesus] where are they? Does not the apostle Paul mention these?
 
Loyal
I fully agree with this Amadeus. I teach this all the time ;).

I am jumping on a doctrine that is of the devil. Forgive me if it appears I am jumping on Christians. I used to be 50/50 on the trinity until I grasped the full implications.
I was a Trinitarian as I was Oneness Jesus Only, but now I am neither. I hope that I am of God and growing.
 
Loyal
We can only judge by fruits. Good people are only judged by us as good as we discern good fruits. I guess the better a judge we are the less we may agree with others on who exactly is good.

But lets make no mistake anyone doing anything like James 1:27 is either a Christian or very close to being one. You cannot be selfless for long without running into Jesus.
Amen!
 
Administrator
Staff Member
It always baffled me that people deny the Trinity (1 GOD = 3 persons together).

The big one is about the Holy Spirit. They say it's the Spirit of GOD, but not an actual person. Yet, all over Scripture the Holy Spirit is referred to as a person: He not "it".

Who is the Holy Spirit And What Does He Do?
 
Loyal
It always baffled me that people deny the Trinity (1 GOD = 3 persons together).

The big one is about the Holy Spirit. They say it's the Spirit of GOD, but not an actual person. Yet, all over Scripture the Holy Spirit is referred to as a person: He not "it".

Who is the Holy Spirit And What Does He Do?
Is this not because of the English language in which inanimate objects are always called "it" rather than "he" or "she" in the pronoun form? In most European languages the pronoun always agrees with the gender of the noun and many nouns referring to inanimate objects are masculine or feminine rather than neuter.

In Latin there are masculine, feminine and neuter nouns with pronouns that always agree in gender, but many inanimate objects are masculine or feminine rather than neuter.

Biblical Hebrew and Koine Greek also have three genders for nouns with some inanimate objects being masculine or feminine rather than neuter.

The distinction between "he", "she" and "it", if English were the only language involved, might support your point but the earliest written Bibles were not in English.

My point is that an English pronoun is not really evidence one way or the other... A lot would depend upon the translators.
 
Active
When I was first made aware of the Trinity I didn't or couldn't rather wrap my brain or mind around it til my brother explained it like this: Water, ice, steam it's all the same but in different forms. Once I got it understanding the Trinity is simple.
 
Loyal
Is this not because of the English language in which inanimate objects are always called "it" rather than "he" or "she" in the pronoun form? In most European languages the pronoun always agrees with the gender of the noun and many nouns referring to inanimate objects are masculine or feminine rather than neuter.
The word "it". Is commonly used in the Bible. However in the case of the Holy Spirit.. "He" can be insulted. He can also be greived. Inanimate objects cannot be insulted or grieved.
 
Loyal
The word "it". Is commonly used in the Bible. However in the case of the Holy Spirit.. "He" can be insulted. He can also be greived. Inanimate objects cannot be insulted or grieved.
I am not arguing against the Trinity. My last post was only intended to help people realize that we do live by faith rather than by knowledge. We do know things that God has given us to know, but when it comes to transferring that knowledge to another person we cannot. We can share things that we know or that we believe, but...

Only God gives the increase.

I can post what people consider evidence to both sides of the Trinity question or I could even try to play the devil's advocate on behalf of atheists, but really I cannot do what God does not direct me to do without getting myself into trouble. Everyone is not in the same place in their walk with God. God knows that better than any of us.

We will never win a soul for God... unless God is really on both sides, the one to be won and the one to do the winning. One heart is being used by God because it is available while the other is being filled by God because it is open.

I could say some things about the Trinity but on this open forum I do not believe that they would edify anyone. But, anyone who is really interested may contact me on it PM, but that invitation is not an invitation to argue...
 
Loyal
There are verses like Eph 4:30; and Heb 10:29; that indicate the Holy Spirit has emotions.

Sometimes you see phrases like "the" Holy Spirit. ( Matt 1:18; Matt 1:20; etc.. )
People seem to think this means it could be inanimate... like "the" table.
However the word "the" is also used as a title for people. "The" Christ. "The" Messiah.
and "The" God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob" are not inanimate objects.

Neither is "the" Holy Spirit.
 
Member
1 John 5:6,7
This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. You cannot bear record or bear witness unless you are a living being.
 
Member
Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness....

The trinitarians take this verse as three persons sitting on three thrones in heaven talking one towards another about making man in their image.

To the natural thinking of man, that thinking brings death.

Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Why did the next verse say: So God created man in his own image?
 
Active
When I was first made aware of the Trinity I didn't or couldn't rather wrap my brain or mind around it til my brother explained it like this: Water, ice, steam it's all the same but in different forms. Once I got it understanding the Trinity is simple.
There is also the 'oneness' theory. I may get it a bit wrong but here is my best stab at it.

You are a sister to your brother, a mother to your children and a daughter to your parents. There is no Jesus, God and Holy Spirit in heaven. It is only Jesus. Others (angels) see God differently. We see Jesus. As Jesus says if you have seen me you have seen the Father. Jesus says He will be seated next to the Father / on His right side. This is not a separate seat but rather the same seat. When Jesus prayed to His Father He was teaching us to pray + showing / proving to us that He was dealing with a very real flesh that needed to fast and pray to be put in its place.

It actually doesn't matter how we explain or understand it. The only real fact that is not negotiable is that only the Holy Spirit can reveal Jesus to us and He reveals Jesus to us as Lord. As divinity.

1 Cor 12:3 Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.
 
Member
T
Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness....

The trinitarians take this verse as three persons sitting on three thrones in heaven talking one towards another about making man in their image.

To the natural thinking of man, that thinking brings death.

Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Why did the next verse say: So God created man in his own image?
The oneness belief system is based on a ton of speculation and not on sound scripture. And yes I only read the King James Bible. I simply can't read a bible version that has scripture removed. But that's my conviction even though it may not be for others.
 
Member
Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness....

The trinitarians take this verse as three persons sitting on three thrones in heaven talking one towards another about making man in their image.

To the natural thinking of man, that thinking brings death.

Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Why did the next verse say: So God created man in his own image?
Gregory Boyd has a good book on the subject. He was a oneness believer.
 
Loyal
T

The oneness belief system is based on a ton of speculation and not on sound scripture. And yes I only read the King James Bible. I simply can't read a bible version that has scripture removed. But that's my conviction even though it may not be for others.
Actually what you say also could be applied to the Trinity if a person were able to read the scripture without a pro-trinity bias at the start. I grew up as a Catholic Trinitarian and went into Oneness at age 32. I left Oneness in 1987. Now I am a follower of God.
 

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