Hyper Grace

[B-A-C]

There is a movement in "Christianity" today. It says we are not saved by works. ...and of course we aren't.
No one is saved without the cross, without Jesus. No one is saved on their own.

However.... a lot of the hyper grace theology isn't in the Bible.
Phrases like saved by "grace alone" and "unconditional love" aren't in the Bible anywhere.
Yet whole theologies are built on them.

There are verses like Matt 7:21; that are controversial to some.
These aren't people who didn't know who Jesus was.
Matt 7:13 says most will go to destruction, and only a few will find the path to life.
This includes those who think they are Christians. (Matt 7:22; Luke 13:25-27; )

Some say OK... most people aren't going to heaven. But that's because God chooses who is and who isn't.
Well, even if that was true... it throws unconditional love out the window. Why does God choose not to give these people grace? Especially if it's His will that everyone goes to heaven. 2 Thess 2:10; 2 Pet 3:9; 1 Tim 2:3-4;

There are some who teach that nothing we do has any value at all. They are partly right.
Our works won't save us. However the absence of some works will keep us out of heaven.
In Matt 25. Why did Jesus seprate the sheep from the goats? What makes you a sheep or a goat?
Grace? Or the deeds you did while on earth?
Again in Matt 25 we see three of the masters servants given some talents. Two of the servants
invested their talents in the masters work. One didn't. He thought he was saved by doing nothing.
But he was thrown out of the masters house into a place with the unbelievers.

In Matt 3:9-10; we see that the trees ("Christians") who do bear good fruit, are cut down and thrown into the fire.
In Luke 13, we see that the master might even fertilize the tree and give it some time to bear fruit, but if it doesn't bear fruit eventually. It is cut down and thrown into the fire.

There are verses like Heb 11:17; 1 Pet 1:7; and Rev 2:10; that say our faith will be tested.
The Bible says without faith it is impossible to please Him.
Some Christians have already been tested (2 Cor 8:22; 1 Tim 3:10; )

2 Cor 2:9; talks about being tested by obedience.
2 Cor 13:5-7; talks about passing the test.
All of the verses above throw "grace alone" (which isn't in the Bible anyway) out the window.
The fact is, the way you live is what determines your salvation just as much as your faith does.

The kingdom of God has weeds (tares) in it along with the wheat ( Matt 13:25-30; )
It has both good fish and bad fish in it (matt 13:47-50; )
But eventually the weeds and the bad fish will be separated (like the goats) and thrown into the fire.

Remember, no where in the Bible does it say we will be judged by what we believe.
However in several places it does say we will be judged by our deeds.
Matt 16:27; Jon 3:19-21; John 5:28-29; Rom 2:5-10; 2 Cor 5:10; Titus 1:6; Rev 20:12-13;

It is not merely people who believe in Jesus and hear His words who will be saved, but those who do His words.
Rom 2:13; James 1:22;
Faith alone doesn't save us. James 2:20; James 2:24;

Hyper grace is a false doctrine. Grace alone is a false doctrine.

 

[RJ]

There is a movement in "Christianity" today. It says we are not saved by works

I wouldn't call it a movement, it is a truth!

 

[RJ]

Grace alone is a false doctrine.

Ephesians 2:8-9..... Please explain this away!

 

[RJ]

Phrases like saved by "grace alone" and "unconditional love" aren't in the Bible anywhere.

Wow, you are amazing!
Explain these:
Romans 5:8 - But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
John 3:16 - For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Ephesians 2:8 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God
John 15:13 13 Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends.
1 Corinthians 13: 4-5 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

Wow, you are amazing!
Explain these:
Romans 5:8 - But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
John 3:16 - For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Ephesians 2:8 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God
John 15:13 13 Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends.
1 Corinthians 13: 4-5 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.

You go RJ !

 

[TaylorDonBarret]

I agree with you B-A-C, on nearly every single point you make.

The one thing i will say is that there is a difference between living saved (very few do it), and being saved on your death bed (i think many more than we realize).

I think when Jesus says "the way is wide that leads to destruction, and many enter through it", it would be wise to see exactly what he says, and what he doesnt say. He does say that many enter through the gate that leads to destruction, but He does not say that they all continue on that path and actually get destroyed.

Likewise, when Jesus says "the way is narrow that leads to life, and few find it", what does he say exactly? few FIND the narrow way. and certainly, very few do find it.

But, at the end of everyone's life, does God make a final push for their salvation? in the final moments of every human beings life, does Jesus enter their consciousness and reveal His glory to them and give them a chance to repent? If so, (and I think so), then there would be MANY who entered through the broad gate, but are eventually saved before they reach destruction. and while few actually FIND the narrow gate, many more would be guided to it by through the grace of God.

So, many enter through the broad gate.. and few find the narrow.. but on the death bed, if God makes an appeal to all those headed to destruction, many of them might be saved.. even though the passed through the broad gate and did not find the narrow, God would have saved them anyways.


i think Jesus alludes to this in one of his parables about the man who hires some workers at the beginning of the day. then he goes out at the middle of the day and hires some more. then, right before the day is over, goes out and rounds up the rest of the workers and hires them to. at the end of the day he pays all of them the same wage. the workers who worked all day are angry, because the man payed them the same thing as the workers who only worked for one hour. but the man replies "are you evil because I am good? i gave you what we agreed on. I can do with my money what I want"

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

i think Jesus alludes to this in one of his parables about the man who hires some workers at the beginning of the day. then he goes out at the middle of the day and hires some more. then, right before the day is over, goes out and rounds up the rest of the workers and hires them to. at the end of the day he pays all of them the same wage. the workers who worked all day are angry, because the man payed them the same thing as the workers who only worked for one hour. but the man replies "are you evil because I am good? i gave you what we agreed on. I can do with my money what I want"

Very thought provoking
Your looking through bloodshot eyes.

Let me explain:
Your contemplating the matter through the blood of the Lamb who's will it is/was to save the world.
Why should I assume through human eyes he will fail.
It's not his will that any should perish.
Whether you are right or wrong I cannot tell,but you prove there may be answers that we may not yet have considered.
We pray that his will be done but some times we don't talk like it or walk like we believe him.

Thy will be done,amen

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

Some say OK... most people aren't going to heaven. But that's because God chooses who is and who isn't.
Well, even if that was true... it throws unconditional love out the window. Why does God choose not to give these people grace? Especially if it's His will that everyone goes to heaven. 2 Thess 2:10; 2 Pet 3:9; 1 Tim 2:3-4;

Brother we know that all things are possible with God.

1 Corinthians 13: 4-5 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.

In addition to keeping no record of wrongs Love is not self seeking.
Some translations have it 'love does not demand it's own way.
I have no clue how God is going to get these people to see that they are forgiven and he just wants his wayward children to share his joy and safety and provision and to escape the slavery of a dark mind and heart.
If a parent was missing a child I would help look for them not just say "gee this is a really bad part of town".
Maybe if he let us kill him and he reappeared and told us he still loved us we would believe.
Oh wait,he did that.
A father mind bend a rule or two to get his child back but he might not reveal to everyone how he's going to pull it off.

 

[TaylorDonBarret]

Very thought provoking
Your looking through bloodshot eyes.

Let me explain:
Your contemplating the matter through the blood of the Lamb who's will it is/was to save the world.
Why should I assume through human eyes he will fail.
It's not his will that any should perish.
Whether you are right or wrong I cannot tell,but you prove there may be answers that we may not yet have considered.
We pray that his will be done but some times we don't talk like it or walk like we believe him.

Thy will be done,amen

one thing is for certain, God cannot tell a lie.

so when he speaks of many burning in hell for eternity, you can be sure that there is a very real eternal hell and there will really be many human beings there burning forever.

yes, i did say that i think it is possible that Jesus will convert many people on their death beds and save them.

however, you are making the argument that 1) because God wants everyone to be saved, that 2) everyone will be saved.

but this is flawed logic, my friend. God wants many things, and we are always disobeying Him. God did not want me to be a steroid addicted, crystal meth addicted, gay prostitute... but guess what? I became one. God did not want me to drive without a valid drivers license, but guess what? I did. God did not want me to steal over 10,000 dollars from my parents when i was a teenager... but I did.

God does not always get what He wants. He did not want Adam to sin. He did not want Solomon to make altars to demons, etc

God wants all men to be saved... but whether they choose to repent of their sins and trust in the cross of Christ; that is a decision that only men can make for themselves.

And the bible clearly tells us that many men are going to die in their sins, and burn in hell forever.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

however, you are making the argument that 1) because God wants everyone to be saved, that 2) everyone will be saved.

I was very careful not to even imply that.
You showed yourself that there can be explanations that we may not have considered.
I did not come to any judgements or conclusions.
I left God in charge.
I don't want to tell a Father that most of his children will be tortured for eternity.
I'm referring to God as Father not a human but I would not tell a human he can't save his child either.
I do pray that his will be done and he tells me to believe that I have received
what I ask but I am not telling God how he must or can't do anything.

Saying anyone will go to hell is divining the future for evil.
Let's let Father be in charge.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

but this is flawed logic, my friend. God wants many things, and we are always disobeying Him. God did not want me to be a steroid addicted, crystal meth addicted, gay prostitute... but guess what? I became one. God did not want me to drive without a valid drivers license, but guess what? I did. God did not want me to steal over 10,000 dollars from my parents when i was a teenager... but I did.

I hope there was someone in your parents life who told them God can do anything.
Just keep praying and believing all things work together for good.
I hope they didn't suffer for nothing.

 

[TaylorDonBarret]

I was very careful not to even imply that.
You showed yourself that there can be explanations that we may not have considered.
I did not come to any judgements or conclusions.
I left God in charge.
I don't want to tell a Father that most of his children will be tortured for eternity.
I'm referring to God as Father not a human but I would not tell a human he can't save his child either.
I do pray that his will be done and he tells me to believe that I have received
what I ask but I am not telling God how he must or can't do anything.

Saying anyone will go to hell is divining the future for evil.
Let's let Father be in charge.

We cannot ask for God to do things that He has already told us He will not do.
For example, if we pray for God to save Satan from Hell... we already know that God has promised that Satan will be sent to Hell.
So we cannot pray for that.

Now, God does wish that all men would be saved. But not all men wish to be saved. Men hate God, and reject salvation, preferring their sins over the Lord Jesus.
And for that reason, because men love darkness more than light, they will be condemned to the outer darkness where they will burn forever.

Here is what Jesus says..

"Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' 23"And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you who practice lawlessness.'"

So, Jesus makes it absolutely clear, undeniably obvious: There WILL be people that He WILL send to Hell. This is guaranteed, Jesus promised it will happen. No ifs ands or buts about it.

"..They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever" (Revelation 20:10)

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

one thing is for certain, God cannot tell a lie.

so when he speaks of many burning in hell for eternity, you can be sure that there is a very real eternal hell and there will really be many human beings there burning forever.

yes, i did say that i think it is possible that Jesus will convert many people on their death beds and save them.

however, you are making the argument that 1) because God wants everyone to be saved, that 2) everyone will be saved.

but this is flawed logic, my friend. God wants many things, and we are always disobeying Him. God did not want me to be a steroid addicted, crystal meth addicted, gay prostitute... but guess what? I became one. God did not want me to drive without a valid drivers license, but guess what? I did. God did not want me to steal over 10,000 dollars from my parents when i was a teenager... but I did.

God does not always get what He wants. He did not want Adam to sin. He did not want Solomon to make altars to demons, etc

God wants all men to be saved... but whether they choose to repent of their sins and trust in the cross of Christ; that is a decision that only men can make for themselves.

And the bible clearly tells us that many men are going to die in their sins, and burn in hell forever.

The number of those who get saved is a million dollar question.............Lets see here what does God have to work with to get this done ? Oh yea that would be us...........Now then look around and see what and who God has to work with or through.

Simple solution would be for us to start doing what God is counting on us to do. Share the Love of God and get the lost and God together. Remember we all were LOST at one time or another and therte was some one praying for us.

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

I was very careful not to even imply that.
You showed yourself that there can be explanations that we may not have considered.
I did not come to any judgements or conclusions.
I left God in charge.
I don't want to tell a Father that most of his children will be tortured for eternity.
I'm referring to God as Father not a human but I would not tell a human he can't save his child either.
I do pray that his will be done and he tells me to believe that I have received
what I ask but I am not telling God how he must or can't do anything.

Saying anyone will go to hell is divining the future for evil.
Let's let Father be in charge.

Both you and Taylor seem to already have this out come figured out. Lots and lots and lotys of peoploe rejcting Christi and burning in Hell. Truth be told you both should be praying and speaking and doing all you can do to get these numbers down and stop speaking big numbers weill burn.....Phoooey on that stinken thinken and do not tell me that it is Gods word.
EDIT,,,,,,,,,,, Just trying to change the way you speak thus will change the way you think and see things.
Even if the numbers were high.........Out of OUR LOVE for God the Father we need to see these numbers low and get out and harvest these souls for God......KNow what I mean me brothers ?

 

[TaylorDonBarret]

I do pray for the lost, every day, multiple times (hundreds of times, if you count silent prayers in my head).
And I do evangelize, quite often actually.
My friends actually know me as the guy who loves to evangelize. That's the guy I am known as in my church small group.
It is not a matter of loving and praying for the lost.. it is a matter of believing God's word.
How many people will go to hell? I do not know. But some people will go there, I do know, because God says so.
And thats about where I draw the line.
Except if you ask my opinion, then I will say that the bible seems to indicate that most people will go to hell, but it does leave some room for interpretation on the issue.

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

I do pray for the lost, every day, multiple times (hundreds of times, if you count silent prayers in my head).
And I do evangelize, quite often actually.
My friends actually know me as the guy who loves to evangelize. That's the guy I am known as in my church small group.
It is not a matter of loving and praying for the lost.. it is a matter of believing God's word.
How many people will go to hell? I do not know. But some people will go there, I do know, because God says so.
And thats about where I draw the line.
Except if you ask my opinion, then I will say that the bible seems to indicate that most people will go to hell, but it does leave some room for interpretation on the issue.

Taylor Hello,
First of all did you see the edit I added to the reply ? It slipped through before I was done.
That is awesom and I am very proud of you in the way that you are not only seen but living. I pray more people would become like that as well.

I had not ever really gotten from His word that lots will go to hell but in all truth if one person does then that is one too many. However it is not always going to be our doing or choice but like you I would rather concentrate on the lost and doing all that I can do to bring as many of those in our part of the world to Christ.

Again Taylor thank you for loving God and doing all that you are
God Bless
jim

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

We cannot ask for God to do things that He has already told us He will not do.

John 17:24 "Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.

I don't have to,someone already did.
Dad always hears him
And I love him,he told me to pray for everyone.
He told me to believe I have received what I have prayed for.

I never came to any conclusion as to how this works out but I'm just sayin maybe dad's a little craftier than your giving him credit for.
I think I would find a way to get my babies back I'm not claiming anything
Ya know love never fails,but I don't know how that works either but so far in my life it has(worked out).
Let's just call it a hunch if my admiration for my Father's power and creative abilities gets your knickers in a bunch.

 

[TaylorDonBarret]

look at the rest of the text

"I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you. For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me. I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours."


Over and over and over again the Bible makes it very clear that there will be people burning in hell forever.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

Both you and Taylor seem to already have this out come figured out.

Brother please thoughtfully reread where I started.Take your time
I never claim any conclusion just that I don't condemn those I pray for and believe.
I pray God's will be done in everyone's life and the father knows each of their names just like he knew yours.
It is my hope that God has a way,he's clever you know.

Give me names-each and every one that is going,what are their names.
They are not a thing called sinners or people,each one has a name and God Knows every name.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

"I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word.

Ya,he spoke that in faith, if they believed him they wouldn't have been so surprised by his resurrection.

Ok,just the ones who's names you know who is going