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Hello, I am struggel on this in the bible Jes:14

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ucj

Is it refer to the king of Babylon or Lucifer?

Quot KJV:
"Jes 14:4 That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!

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es 14:9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.

Jes 14:10 All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?

Jes 14:11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.

Jes 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

Jes 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

Jes 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

Jes 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

Jes 14:16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms"
 
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Lucifer is the Latin name for the planet Venus, the Morning Star.

In chapter 14, Isaiah likens the King of Babylon to the star which shines brighter than any other, then falls to the ground.
 
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Isaiah 14: 12 is where the passage starts "How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground. You who weakened the nations!

vs 13 For you have said in your heart; I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will be like the Most High."

In this particular case -- Lucifer is Not the planet Venus.

The passage Is referring to Lucifer / satan
 
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That passage Can be confusing -- but it's referring to the fall of Lucifer from heaven down to earth. From vs 12 - 15 -- all those "I Will's" of Lucifer as a person.
 
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Is it refer to the king of Babylon or Lucifer?

Quot KJV:
"Jes 14:4 That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!

.

.

es 14:9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.

Jes 14:10 All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?

Jes 14:11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.

Jes 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

Jes 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

Jes 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

Jes 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

Jes 14:16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms"
The answer to you question is in verse four "...you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon, and say, “How the oppressor has ceased, And how fury has ceased!" Everything else that follows in this text is symbolism directed at Nebuchadnezzar.
 
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Could it be that at the same time this is directed at both Nebuchadnezzar and Lucifer the angelic power behind Babylon.

Personally I like taking the scripture literal unless it is made clear that it is symbolic. I believe this is for the moat part discussing Satan's rebellion against God.
 
Loyal
A similar parallel allegory is in Ezekiel 28.

Ezek 28:11; Again the word of the LORD came to me saying,
Ezek 28:12; "Son of man, take up a lamentation over the king of Tyre and say to him, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "You had the seal of perfection, Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
Ezek 28:13; "You were in Eden, the garden of God; Every precious stone was your covering: The ruby, the topaz and the diamond; The beryl, the onyx and the jasper; The lapis lazuli, the turquoise and the emerald; And the gold, the workmanship of your settings and sockets, Was in you. On the day that you were created They were prepared.
Ezek 28:14; "You were the anointed cherub who covers, And I placed you there. You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked in the midst of the stones of fire.
Ezek 28:15; "You were blameless in your ways From the day you were created Until unrighteousness was found in you.
Ezek 28:16; "By the abundance of your trade You were internally filled with violence, And you sinned; Therefore I have cast you as profane From the mountain of God. And I have destroyed you, O covering cherub, From the midst of the stones of fire.
Ezek 28:17; "Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty; You corrupted your wisdom by reason of your splendor. I cast you to the ground; I put you before kings, That they may see you.
Ezek 28:18; "By the multitude of your iniquities, In the unrighteousness of your trade You profaned your sanctuaries. Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you; It has consumed you, And I have turned you to ashes on the earth In the eyes of all who see you.
Ezek 28:19 "All who know you among the peoples Are appalled at you; You have become terrified And you will cease to be forever."'"

This seems to be about the king or Tyre (a real person) but also about the cherub (angel) who was in the garden of Eden. Who was cast out of heaven. (Luke 10:18; )
 
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Could it be that at the same time this is directed at both Nebuchadnezzar and Lucifer the angelic power behind Babylon.

Personally I like taking the scripture literal unless it is made clear that it is symbolic. I believe this is for the moat part discussing Satan's rebellion against God.
There is no mention or even any illusion to either Satan or angels anywhere in this text. The language is characteristically apocalyptic and not to be understood as literal. We may not understand all of the applications represented by some of this imagery, but it is clear that the king of Babylon is the one to whom they are directed. It is Nebuchadnezzar who God calls "star of the morning" (Lucifer) and "son of the dawn." The language is meant to illustrate the greatness God had given Nebuchadnezzar, the arrogance of the man as he began to exalt himself above God, and how far he had fallen from God's favor. The end result of all of this was that God took his power from him and gave his kingdom to another.

What does this text tell us?
It tells us who is speaking - God.
It tells us to whom he is speaking - Isaiah.
It tells us to whom the message was directed - the king of Babylon (Nebuchadnezzar)
Everything else that follows, is what Isaiah was directed by God to say to Nebuchadnezzar. All of this is what the text literally tells us in so many words. So, if you want to approach it literally, here is where we must begin.
 
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There is no mention or even any illusion to either Satan or angels anywhere in this text. The language is characteristically apocalyptic and not to be understood as literal. We may not understand all of the applications represented by some of this imagery, but it is clear that the king of Babylon is the one to whom they are directed. It is Nebuchadnezzar who God calls "star of the morning" (Lucifer) and "son of the dawn." The language is meant to illustrate the greatness God had given Nebuchadnezzar, the arrogance of the man as he began to exalt himself above God, and how far he had fallen from God's favor. The end result of all of this was that God took his power from him and gave his kingdom to another.

What does this text tell us?
It tells us who is speaking - God.
It tells us to whom he is speaking - Isaiah.
It tells us to whom the message was directed - the king of Babylon (Nebuchadnezzar)
Everything else that follows, is what Isaiah was directed by God to say to Nebuchadnezzar. All of this is what the text literally tells us in so many words. So, if you want to approach it literally, here is where we must begin.
Could be. But its not really clear enough for us to be certain one way or the other. But if we take this and apply it to the rebellion and fall of satan will it give us a picture that is unbiblical and goes against the rest of scripture?
 
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Could be. But its not really clear enough for us to be certain one way or the other. But if we take this and apply it to the rebellion and fall of satan will it give us a picture that is unbiblical and goes against the rest of scripture?
If we do that, we are assigning our own meaning to the text rather than allowing the language of the text to supply the meaning. Man is NEVER permitted to assign meaning to revealed symbols. God alone assigns meaning to revealed symbols.
 
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But what you have already done is chosen to apply those symbols to Nebuchadnezzar. How is that different when scripture would collaborate applying them to Satan also?
 
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But what you have already done is chosen to apply those symbols to Nebuchadnezzar. How is that different when scripture would collaborate applying them to Satan also?
I did not apply those symbols to Nebuchadnezzar, the text did.

4"...take up this taunt against the king of Babylon, and say,…8“Even the cypress trees rejoice over you, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying, ‘Since YOU were laid low, no tree cutter comes up against us.’ 9“Sheol from beneath is excited over you to meet YOU when you come; It arouses for YOU the spirits of the dead,... 10“They will all respond and say to YOU, ‘Even YOU have been made weak as we. YOU have become like us. 11YOUR pomp and the music of YOUR harps Have been brought down to Sheol; Maggots are spread out as YOUR bed beneath YOU, and worms are YOUR covering.’ 12“How YOU have fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the dawn! YOU have been cut down to the earth, YOU who have weakened the nations! 13“But YOU said in YOU heart, ‘I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God, And I will sit on the mount of assembly In the recesses of the north. 14‘I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.’ 15“Nevertheless YOU will be thrust down to Sheol, To the recesses of the pit. 16“Those who see YOU will gaze at YOU.... 19“But YOU have been cast out of YOUR tomb.... 20YOU will not be united with them in burial, because YOU have ruined YOUR country, YOU have slain YOUR people."

The only antecedent of you and your is Nebuchadnezzar in verse 4. This entire segment is a taunt against Nebuchadnezzar from the Lord who is voicing his displeasure at HIM because of HIS arrogance. I am not saying this, the text is saying this.
 
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One thing that is somewhat misleading is the translation of, "How you have fallen from heaven..." in verse 12. The Hebrew word is miš-šā-ma-yim which is a masculine plural noun - "from the heavens." Young's literal translation Bible renders it correctly. God likens Nebuchadnezzar to a star that has fallen from it place in the heavens.
 
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I did not apply those symbols to Nebuchadnezzar, the text did.

4"...take up this taunt against the king of Babylon, and say,…8“Even the cypress trees rejoice over you, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying, ‘Since YOU were laid low, no tree cutter comes up against us.’ 9“Sheol from beneath is excited over you to meet YOU when you come; It arouses for YOU the spirits of the dead,... 10“They will all respond and say to YOU, ‘Even YOU have been made weak as we. YOU have become like us. 11YOUR pomp and the music of YOUR harps Have been brought down to Sheol; Maggots are spread out as YOUR bed beneath YOU, and worms are YOUR covering.’ 12“How YOU have fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the dawn! YOU have been cut down to the earth, YOU who have weakened the nations! 13“But YOU said in YOU heart, ‘I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God, And I will sit on the mount of assembly In the recesses of the north. 14‘I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.’ 15“Nevertheless YOU will be thrust down to Sheol, To the recesses of the pit. 16“Those who see YOU will gaze at YOU.... 19“But YOU have been cast out of YOUR tomb.... 20YOU will not be united with them in burial, because YOU have ruined YOUR country, YOU have slain YOUR people."

The only antecedent of you and your is Nebuchadnezzar in verse 4. This entire segment is a taunt against Nebuchadnezzar from the Lord who is voicing his displeasure at HIM because of HIS arrogance. I am not saying this, the text is saying this.
I can see all of that. But your only tie to Nebuchadnezzar is that it says king of babylon. But we can see from Daniel that an angel can hold a title like prince of persia and prince of greece so it is completely within reason to see that king of babylon could also be used to describe Satan Babylon's spiritual king. Im not saying that it does or doesn't apply to Nebuchadnezzar. I'm saying that there is plenty of evidence that it could just as likely be one as the other or both. God's word is living and it is capable of feats like this.
 
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I can see all of that. But your only tie to Nebuchadnezzar is that it says king of babylon. But we can see from Daniel that an angel can hold a title like prince of persia and prince of greece so it is completely within reason to see that king of babylon could also be used to describe Satan Babylon's spiritual king. Im not saying that it does or doesn't apply to Nebuchadnezzar. I'm saying that there is plenty of evidence that it could just as likely be one as the other or both. God's word is living and it is capable of feats like this.
We know that scripture uses the term "Prince" repeatedly to refer to earthly kings. We also know that this same word is used to refer to Michael the Ark angel. It is also used to refer to Messiah. Prince is just a word that typically identifies a ruler or a king. In this text, both the king of Persia and Michael are fittingly referred to as "Prince." The king of Persia is Prince over the Persian empire. Michael is called the chief Prince over the angels. I suspect this probably identifies Michael as an Ark angel, of which we are told there are four. This is one of only two places in scripture where the word Prince is used with respect to an angel, The text in Daniel is very explicit because here, Michael is called by name. The other is Eph 2:2 and does seem to imply Satan. But in Isaiah, it is speaking of the king of Babylon whom we all know was Nebuchadnezzar
 
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We know that scripture uses the term "Prince" repeatedly to refer to earthly kings. We also know that this same word is used to refer to Michael the Ark angel. It is also used to refer to Messiah. Prince is just a word that typically identifies a ruler or a king. In this text, both the king of Persia and Michael are fittingly referred to as "Prince." The king of Persia is Prince over the Persian empire. Michael is called the chief Prince over the angels. I suspect this probably identifies Michael as an Ark angel, of which we are told there are four. This is one of only two places in scripture where the word Prince is used with respect to an angel, The text in Daniel is very explicit because here, Michael is called by name. The other is Eph 2:2 and does seem to imply Satan. But in Isaiah, it is speaking of the king of Babylon whom we all know was Nebuchadnezzar
Ok
 
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This is talking about the king of babylon. There is no Lucifer as a satan. That is a Roman mistranslation in the KJV.
Hasatan the Hebrew term for satan means adversary. It mainly refers to human hasatans.
 
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