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heaven for the sinner and hell for the saint?

Member
consider this scenario..

there is one guy who sins through his life (drinks, gambles, womanizes, etc.) and when he is on his death bed (70 years old) he truly repents and asks for forgiveness. he is forgiven and enters heaven.

there is this other guy who lives a life that could well be regarded as saintly but never believes in God. will he be doomed to hell??
 
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RJ

consider this scenario..

there is one guy who sins through his life (drinks, gambles, womanizes, etc.) and when he is on his death bed (70 years old) he truly repents and asks for forgiveness. he is forgiven and enters heaven.

there is this other guy who lives a life that could well be regarded as saintly but never believes in God. will he be doomed to hell??
Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me John 14:6
 
Member
consider this scenario..
OK considering.

there is one guy who sins through his life (drinks, gambles, womanizes, etc.) and when he is on his death bed (70 years old) he truly repents and asks for forgiveness. he is forgiven and enters heaven.
So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

there is this other guy who lives a life that could well be regarded as saintly but never believes in God. will he be doomed to hell??
I don't care how he lived his life he deserves to go to Hell. God has not left himself without witness. The things of him can clearly be seen by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead. So this man is without excuse before God. He has denied his own creator which is his sin that he will die for.

Nice exercise, thanks for the post,

Gary
 
Member
I don't care how he lived his life he deserves to go to Hell. God has not left himself without witness. The things of him can clearly be seen by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead. So this man is without excuse before God. He has denied his own creator which is his sin that he will die for.
To condemn a person to eternal pain and suffering, regardless of his deeds but especially someone who does not warrant any sort of punishment, is not only immoral, but capricious and evil.

To be created imperfect with the stain of sin then expected to heal ourselves under the threat of eternal torture is preposterous. It is especially evil to be convicted for the infringement of thought crime, where your only recourse is to submit as a slave by showing proper contrition to your master. It is the definition of masochism. How can one say that is not capricious and evil?
 
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Member
I will leave that one up to God. Only he knows what he will do.

But consider this. Jesus was in a town and the righteous leaders came to him with a woman who had sinned. They wished to stone her.

Jesus told them all you who are without sin, cast the first stone. In his presence they all realized they were just a bad as she was.

So Jesus told her to go and sin no more. Now this was before the age of grace, it was during the time of the law and blood sacrifice. But Jesus who is God, was very merciful to her.

I think God demands our obedience, and enjoys us when we accept him, but I also realize he is very intelligent, compassionate , although he will destroy for sin and some such as those who choose not to believer will be destroyed also, on a case by case basis, what will he do? Will he do like man and condemn out of righteous indignation or will he smile and say.......now do you believe , here I am, what do you say now??

In the world of man, where all is of man, and we cannot trust man and we go on books and words and many things, is it not easy for some to come to a conclusion and feel it is the right one, does God not understand this and look at a good man who lives a good life a bit different than one like Charles Manson or the one who just set fire to a woman in an elevator. Is God like us full of self imposed thoughts that this is the only way and I am better than you?? Or does he smile and say.....see you what do you say now??

So I will leave that one up to God, and not put words in his mouth. I do not consider God evil, or unjust, but do consider many things written by man, listened to by man, and done by old laws to be evil and really not of God, as Jesus many times shows us. That those were the laws of man. For that time, just the same not the real will of God.

So that is up to God. But he is not evil. He understands the world and the heart, and I bet he takes all this into consideration.

Kit
 
Member
To condemn a person to eternal pain and suffering, regardless of his deeds but especially someone who does not warrant any sort of punishment, is not only immoral, but capricious and evil.
You are so right! Of course the said person above rejected the very God that created them and therefor subject to eternal pain and suffering. You too can have this very same fate if you wish to reject the light that has come into the world.

To be created imperfect with the stain of sin then expected to heal ourselves under the threat of eternal torture is preposterous.
Amen! The truth speaks again. If, God had created us imperfect then that would be horrible to expect us to behave properly. But we were all created perfect, on day six with Adam and Eve. We fell when Adam fell.

It is especially evil to be convicted for the infringement of thought crime, where your only recourse is to submit as a slave by showing proper contrition to your master. It is the definition of masochism. How can one say that is not capricious and evil?
You were doing great. But here your intellect has got me. You speak over my head. You'll have to dumb it down for me if you want me to understand.
 
Member
You are so right! Of course the said person above rejected the very God that created them and therefor subject to eternal pain and suffering. You too can have this very same fate if you wish to reject the light that has come into the world.
I've heard the threats before, they do not scare me. Nor would I bend my knee and show obedience to a master who demands my love on pain of eternal suffering.

Amen! The truth speaks again. If, God had created us imperfect then that would be horrible to expect us to behave properly. But we were all created perfect, on day six with Adam and Eve. We fell when Adam fell.
But in your first reply, did you not say that the honorable man was condemned to eternal torture for not knowing Jesus? At birth, was he not already condemned until he found and accepted Jesus? If you're implying here that the 'sins' of Adam (another mythical character) condemned the honorable man for the crime of not knowing he was condemned already, that is capricious and evil.

You were doing great. But here your intellect has got me. You speak over my head. You'll have to dumb it down for me if you want me to understand.
I'll try to put it another way. The thought crime of which I speak is to not love or accept Jesus. You are talking about a god that reads your thoughts; requiring that you love him, or else. To employ this type of evil is sadism. For someone to want to engage in this behavior is masochism.
 
Member
Amen! The truth speaks again. If, God had created us imperfect then that would be horrible to expect us to behave properly. But we were all created perfect, on day six with Adam and Eve. We fell when Adam fell.
More accurately we are fallen because Adam fell. :wink:
 
Member
I've heard the threats before, they do not scare me. Nor would I bend my knee and show obedience to a master who demands my love on pain of eternal suffering.



But in your first reply, did you not say that the honorable man was condemned to eternal torture for not knowing Jesus? At birth, was he not already condemned until he found and accepted Jesus? If you're implying here that the 'sins' of Adam (another mythical character) condemned the honorable man for the crime of not knowing he was condemned already, that is capricious and evil.



I'll try to put it another way. The thought crime of which I speak is to not love or accept Jesus. You are talking about a god that reads your thoughts; requiring that you love him, or else. To employ this type of evil is sadism. For someone to want to engage in this behavior is masochism.
You are drawing conclusions from a caricature of who God is and what is He about.

The God who reveal Himself in the Christian Bible is infinitely more complex than that.

Your saying that you won't bend your knee to such God maybe valid if you are in the position of not guilty. Which is contrary to what the Scriptures teach.

But by sacrificing His own and only begotten Son, that is Jesus Christ, this God paved a way for you and I to be reconciled with Him. This concept is called Grace which is the opposite of what some evil and capricious being would ever do. But it will only work if you and I realize that we need it.

So you are free to believe or not what He said in the Bible. However I urge you to at least try to get to know Him (by studying the Bible, not waiting for some mystical experience) first before making your decision.

Welcome to the forum, by the way!
 
Member
I've heard the threats before, they do not scare me. Nor would I bend my knee and show obedience to a master who demands my love on pain of eternal suffering.



But in your first reply, did you not say that the honorable man was condemned to eternal torture for not knowing Jesus? At birth, was he not already condemned until he found and accepted Jesus? If you're implying here that the 'sins' of Adam (another mythical character) condemned the honorable man for the crime of not knowing he was condemned already, that is capricious and evil.



I'll try to put it another way. The thought crime of which I speak is to not love or accept Jesus. You are talking about a god that reads your thoughts; requiring that you love him, or else. To employ this type of evil is sadism. For someone to want to engage in this behavior is masochism.
What seek ye?
 
Member
OK considering.



So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.



I don't care how he lived his life he deserves to go to Hell. God has not left himself without witness. The things of him can clearly be seen by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead. So this man is without excuse before God. He has denied his own creator which is his sin that he will die for.

Nice exercise, thanks for the post,

Gary
What about people who do great things, but never once hear about God or Christianity? They do exist, you know.

To condemn a person to eternal pain and suffering, regardless of his deeds but especially someone who does not warrant any sort of punishment, is not only immoral, but capricious and evil.

To be created imperfect with the stain of sin then expected to heal ourselves under the threat of eternal torture is preposterous. It is especially evil to be convicted for the infringement of thought crime, where your only recourse is to submit as a slave by showing proper contrition to your master. It is the definition of masochism. How can one say that is not capricious and evil?
Doesn't make any sense does it? :)

You are so right! Of course the said person above rejected the very God that created them and therefor subject to eternal pain and suffering. You too can have this very same fate if you wish to reject the light that has come into the world.



Amen! The truth speaks again. If, God had created us imperfect then that would be horrible to expect us to behave properly. But we were all created perfect, on day six with Adam and Eve. We fell when Adam fell.



You were doing great. But here your intellect has got me. You speak over my head. You'll have to dumb it down for me if you want me to understand.
I neglect to understand the view of "we were created perfect, but fell". If we were perfect, we wouldn't be able to fall. If that's the case, then God can fall too. Feel free to provide scripture.

That would be "Merry Christmas"! :wink:
Not everyone celebrates Christmas. Sorry, not every Christian celebrates Christmas.
 
Member
What about people who do great things, but never once hear about God or Christianity? They do exist, you know.
They did hear about God. He spoke to them through creation. If they reject what he has said, which being "I exist", they too shall go to Hell.


I neglect to understand the view of "we were created perfect, but fell". If we were perfect, we wouldn't be able to fall. If that's the case, then God can fall too. Feel free to provide scripture.
That is perfect in the sense that you are understanding the term. I use the term to mean complete as scripture does. Not perfect as in unable to become flawed. There is a difference. Both types of perfect are spoken of in scripture. Jesus was made perfect after his death, burial and resurrection. Paul claimed to not have been made perfect, yet he claimed to be perfect all in the same chapter of Philippians. It is the best example of both uses of the terms that I have found in scripture.

Have a great night.

Gary
 
Member
What about people who do great things, but never once hear about God or Christianity? They do exist, you know.



Doesn't make any sense does it? :)



I neglect to understand the view of "we were created perfect, but fell". If we were perfect, we wouldn't be able to fall. If that's the case, then God can fall too. Feel free to provide scripture.



Not everyone celebrates Christmas. Sorry, not every Christian celebrates Christmas.

hahahaha, thank you kindly for the pretty sensible/detailed answering
 
Member
They did hear about God. He spoke to them through creation. If they reject what he has said, which being "I exist", they too shall go to Hell.




That is perfect in the sense that you are understanding the term. I use the term to mean complete as scripture does. Not perfect as in unable to become flawed. There is a difference. Both types of perfect are spoken of in scripture. Jesus was made perfect after his death, burial and resurrection. Paul claimed to not have been made perfect, yet he claimed to be perfect all in the same chapter of Philippians. It is the best example of both uses of the terms that I have found in scripture.

Have a great night.

Gary
I can see where you're going with the proof of God through existence. It reminds me of atheists views that describe religion as early ways of explaining our existence without science. (Not that I am an atheist or comparing you to one or anything) I just don't follow the belief that someone of complete ignorance of the Christian faith is not saved or will be punished severely for not accepting what they do not know or never even heard of. What about mentally handicapped people who simply cannot comprehend Christianity? Newborns that also simply cannot understand Christianity? This is of course off topic a little, but feel free to respond if you wish.

I only took it in that sense, because that is what it was applied in. "We were created perfect, but we fell". I understand that we were created perfect in a sense that we are designed to be the dominant species, and be able to do what other species cannot. It makes much more sense now that you have clarified it, thank you.

hahahaha, thank you kindly for the pretty sensible/detailed answering
To actually answer your original question, according to the bible, this person you happen to be talking about will be punished. I am sure you know this already, but no man can earn their own salvation because Jesus Christ has earned it for man as a whole. However, we must accept this gift and believe in it or we will be punished, no matter how good or bad we are. This would be a biblical answer to your scenario/question.

I understand that it doesn't seem "fair". Even blindly following Christians somewhere in them can see that it doesn't seem fair at times. We must understand that there is a small picture (our views and our actions) then a large picture (Gods views and actions). What we think is best for the smaller picture, might not be what is best for the larger picture. The bigger picture is what obviously matters most, and the way of humankind supports that fact (how humanity always wants it bigger a better, more and more, etc etc). I guess my point would be is that, God knows what is best for humanity as a whole, He knows the path that we should take.

Hope that isn't too jumbled/random/crazy. lol
 
Member
I can see where you're going with the proof of God through existence. It reminds me of atheists views that describe religion as early ways of explaining our existence without science. (Not that I am an atheist or comparing you to one or anything) I just don't follow the belief that someone of complete ignorance of the Christian faith is not saved or will be punished severely for not accepting what they do not know or never even heard of.
Me either. To whom much is given, much is expected. To whom little is given, little. Everyone has creation. Romans Chapter one details that.

What about mentally handicapped people who simply cannot comprehend Christianity?
God is righteous. I am sure his judgment will be true. They will be judged according to their capacity to comprehend.

Newborns that also simply cannot understand Christianity?
Same as above. The example of Davids son who was put to death, for David's sin, when he was an infant. David said, he won't come to me but I shall go to him. He seemed sure God would be righteous. I guess a more proper answer is simply that all will be judged according to their level of revelation and capacity to understand that revelation. When I spoke previously, I was simply thinking of those who are able.

This is of course off topic a little, but feel free to respond if you wish.
I wish

Have an awesome day serving the Lord,

Gary
 
Member
I can see where you're going with the proof of God through existence. It reminds me of atheists views that describe religion as early ways of explaining our existence without science. (Not that I am an atheist or comparing you to one or anything) I just don't follow the belief that someone of complete ignorance of the Christian faith is not saved or will be punished severely for not accepting what they do not know or never even heard of. What about mentally handicapped people who simply cannot comprehend Christianity? Newborns that also simply cannot understand Christianity? This is of course off topic a little, but feel free to respond if you wish.

I only took it in that sense, because that is what it was applied in. "We were created perfect, but we fell". I understand that we were created perfect in a sense that we are designed to be the dominant species, and be able to do what other species cannot. It makes much more sense now that you have clarified it, thank you.



To actually answer your original question, according to the bible, this person you happen to be talking about will be punished. I am sure you know this already, but no man can earn their own salvation because Jesus Christ has earned it for man as a whole. However, we must accept this gift and believe in it or we will be punished, no matter how good or bad we are. This would be a biblical answer to your scenario/question.

I understand that it doesn't seem "fair". Even blindly following Christians somewhere in them can see that it doesn't seem fair at times. We must understand that there is a small picture (our views and our actions) then a large picture (Gods views and actions). What we think is best for the smaller picture, might not be what is best for the larger picture. The bigger picture is what obviously matters most, and the way of humankind supports that fact (how humanity always wants it bigger a better, more and more, etc etc). I guess my point would be is that, God knows what is best for humanity as a whole, He knows the path that we should take.

Hope that isn't too jumbled/random/crazy. lol
nope, no jumbleness/randomness/craziness. cheers, and happy holidays
 
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