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Hard Questions on Baptism With the Holy Spirit

Discussion in 'Bible Chat' started by JesusIs4Me, Dec 3, 2017.

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  1. Luke 11:9-13 in context was Jesus talking about salvation by seeking the truth and knocking at the door Whom is Jesus. Indeed, there is a warning hidden in there that if any one testify that they had not received the Holy Spirit the first time; it would make the Father look evil if they had to ask again for Whom was promised at their salvation.

    Luke 11:9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. 10 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. 11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? 12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? 13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

    So in regards to the statement in bold in that quote from Chad above, how can a believer apply this warning below?

    2 Corinthians 11:1Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me. 2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. 3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

    So is it wrong to continually seek a supernatural filling of the Holy Spirit apart from salvation or not? I am not sure how any believer can apply that warning when seeing to receive Jesus or the Holy Spirit again.

    Then you have this verse that says we are filled as a testimony that we are saved.

    Matthew 9:17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.

    To suggest that we need a continual filling is to deny we are a new creature and thus new wine bottle able to hold the new wine hence the Holy Spirit.

    A verse often misused for rebuttal;

    Ephesians 5:18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;

    Ephesians 5:18 is just a call to be sober; to remain in the fruit of the Spirit which is temperance also known as self control. We are accountable by what we sow towards; the works of the flesh or the fruits of the Spirit. So it stands to reason why we are always filled with the Spirit because we are still in this sinful flesh as being always filled goes to our testimony that we are saved so we can tell others the Good News of Jesus Christ to a sinful world.

    Since scripture cannot go against scripture, then applying Ephesians 5:18 as meaning a continual supernatural refilling of the Holy Spirit would oppose the plain truth in 2 Corinthians 11:3-4 warning to not preach such a thing.

    Here at TalkJesus, it should be about Jesus Christ, the Son of God, but to take our eyes off of Him to the "Spirit" in opening oneself up to receive "more" of the Holy Spirit is after the rudiment of the world in how they seek continually in receiving spirits, is it not? It is hardly keeping our eyes on the Son as filled and thus saved believers in Jesus Christ.

    Does any one see my concern here?

    If we are to not believe every spirit but test them ( 1 John 4:1-6 ), and it has been prophesied that some shall depart from faith in giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils ( 1 Timothy 4:1-2 ) and that test of our faith that Jesus Christ is in us ( 2 Corinthians 13:5 ), then seeking to receive Him again even in a continually filling sense, cannot be of the gospel, but of the spirit of the antichrist which is in the world.

    John 7:7 The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil.

    I do not see how there can be any impartiality in that, but if any one can make all those scriptures align without opposing the truth in one another, be my guest, but I doubt that any one can ease my concern for that kind of preaching when it clearly appears to me as going against the traditions taught of us as Paul reminded believers when they had received the Holy Spirit which was at the calling of the gospel when they had believed in Him and no other time. 2 Thessalonians 2:13-15

    That is why there can be no other calling: Ephesians 4:4-6 God in us fully is the testimony as saved; Ephesians 1st chapter at that link below; do note the last verse 23, please.

    Bible Gateway passage: Ephesians 1 - King James Version
     
  2. Luke 11:9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. 10 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. 11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? 12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? 13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

    In context of Luke 11:9-13 which is really about the gospel message of receiving salvation since it parallels Matthew's below:

    Matthew 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. 9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

    There is no asking for the Holy Spirit again because that would be the same as asking for salvation again.

    As it is, being always filled since our salvation goes to show we can ask the Lord Jesus Christ for help so we can follow Him while being witnesses of Him along with the Holy Spirit in us as Spirit-filled that we are saved as promised by the Father.

    John 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

    John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you....20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.....25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.:

    Romans 815 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.........31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

    May the Lord help us not to steer away from such a testimony of our salvation in Christ Jesus so that we are not preaching another receiving or a continual receiving of the Holy Spirit that would only confuse the simplicity of the gospel we present.

    Psalm 27:7 Hear, O Lord, when I cry with my voice: have mercy also upon me, and answer me.8 When thou saidst, Seek ye my face; my heart said unto thee, Thy face, Lord, will I seek.9 Hide not thy face far from me; put not thy servant away in anger: thou hast been my help; leave me not, neither forsake me, O God of my salvation.
     
  3. I don't have enough time to go over everything you asked, but I'll try the best I can with what I have quoted.

    I think of Romans 12 here, particularly verses 1 and 2, where it talks about renewing the mind. I don't believe this is just a one time thing. I believe it is a daily process of engaging in prayer and time reading the Word. Kind of like the parable of the virgins in Matthew 25, which some of them waited till the last minute to get more oil, but by then it was too late. Keep the lamp burning!

    I also liken it to the manna during Israel's journey from Egypt to Canaan. The Israelites, no matter how many of them tried, were not able to hoard their manna over to the next day (with the exception of the Sabbath, but that's a rabbit trail to discuss at another time). They had to get their manna every day.

    Hope this helps.
     
    amadeus2 and B-A-C like this.
  4. The Bible makes it clear there is a difference between the initial indwelling of the holy Spirit and the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. There are at least 5 instances where people had been believers for a while and then received the Holy Spirit sometime afterward.

    (The Upper room - Acts 2)
    Saul/Paul conversion on the road to Damascus - Acts 9
    Simon the Sorceror - Acts 8.
    Cornelius, the first Gentiles to received the baptism of the Holy Spirit - Acts 10
    The disciples at Ephesus - Acts 19.

    Gabriel Kinson already mentioned the (5 out of 10) virgins.

    There are others...

    Heb 6:4; For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
    Heb 6:5; and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
    Heb 6:6; and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

    In the old testament....
    (David)
    Psa 51:11; Do not cast me away from Your presence And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.
    (Samson)
    Jdg 16:20; She said, "The Philistines are upon you, Samson!" And he awoke from his sleep and said, "I will go out as at other times and shake myself free." But he did not know that the LORD had departed from him.
    (Saul)
    1 Sam 16:14; But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.

    In the new testament
    Matt 12:43; When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.
    Matt 12:44; Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.
    Matt 12:45; Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.

    Rom 12:2; And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

    It doesn't say (already renewed - past tense).. it says renewing (present tense)..
     
  5. Matt 25:8; "The foolish said to the prudent, 'Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.'
    Matt 25:9; "But the prudent answered, 'No, there will not be enough for us and you too; go instead to the dealers and buy some for yourselves.'
    Matt 25:10; "And while they were going away to make the purchase, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding feast; and the door was shut.
    Matt 25:11; "Later the other virgins also came, saying, 'Lord, lord, open up for us.'
    Matt 25:12; "But he answered, 'Truly I say to you, I do not know you.'

    Can a person's lamp go out? Can salt lose it's saltiness?

    Matt 5:13; "You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt has become tasteless, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled under foot by men.
    Matt 5:14; "You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden;

    Rev 2:5; 'Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and will remove your lampstand out of its place—unless you repent.

    Paul speaking of the Israelites in the desert...
    1 Cor 10:4; and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ.
    1 Cor 10:5; Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were laid low in the wilderness.
    1 Cor 10:8; Nor let us act immorally, as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in one day.
     
  6. Thanks for what you have shared by the way.

    Actually, the parable of the virgin didn't have the prudent ones seeking to be filled continuously with the Holy Spirit ( the oil ) whereas those foolish virgins that seek to be continuously filled are out to the market for why they were not ready to go.

    So I do not see Romans 12:1-2 as inferring a continuous supernatural filling of the Holy Spirit in relations to the parable of the virgins in Matthew 25 when the focus in Romans 12:1-2 is on the word in renewing one's mind in not conforming to the world.

    Well, Jesus made reference to the manna from Heaven that had fed the Israelites in John 6th chapter, but He was testifying indirectly to how to receive the bread of life, which is by believing in Him; not as their forefathers had done by physically eating the manna and are dead. He also promised that once any one had believed in Him, they shall not hunger nor thirst any more; therefore Jesus was not referring to communion or even a continuous supernatural filling of the Holy Spirit, but how we are saved and thus filled by believing in Him is how one receives the bread of life.

    John 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

    So for a saved believer to seek a continuous supernatural filling of the Holy Spirit, is to deny the promise of being filled at their salvation to not hunger nor thirst any more.

    We are to renew our minds by the word in not confirming to this world, and we are to look to Jesus for help in sowing to the fruits of the Spirit which temperance is self control, rather than the works of the flesh which also includes heresy & drunkenness.

    Hopefully, the Lord will show you why my concern on this issue is legit since so far, 2 Corinthians 11:3-4 opposes such teachings and such an encounter with what believers assumed was the Holy Spirit later on in life as a saved believer, thus failing to test the spirits as John told them to do in 1 John 4:1-6
     
  7. Thank you for sharing, by the way.

    This thread is about when His disciples were officially saved which was at Pentecost; and not before. I am sharing this to understand how I am dealing with those references below.

    When the Disciples Were Saved By Faith in Jesus Christ?

    That was when His disciples were officially saved per that thread at the link shared above..

    Not sure why you shared that unless you had believed he had received the Holy Spirit then which he had not. He had to be led by the hand because he was blind and a disciple named Ananias had to come for Saul, then Paul to receive his sight and the promise of the Holy Spirit. Paul's born again experience happened at that time and not during his trip along the road to Damascus.

    Don't forget, the Samaritans of the area had not received the promise of the Holy Spirit yet either for why Peter & John had to come down to lay hands on them. Acts 8:14-17

    Why the delay? Simon's heart was not quite right with the Lord as his mentality was on Philip whom was taking his infamy away as he seemingly appear to be undoing all his sorcery on the people of the area as well as bringing about healing for which Philip developed a fanfare because of it and now Peter & John in how Simon was seeking to buy the ability to give the Holy Ghost. So if Simon's heart was not quite right with the Lord, then neither was the people as it is obvious to me fanfare was keeping their eyes off of coming to and believing in Jesus Christ to just believing in the things Philip preached about.

    We can see another example of misdirected fanfare in how Paul & Apollo were taken as gods.in Acts 14:11-14

    So the born again of the Spirit was delayed until their sights were lifted higher in coming to and believing in Jesus Christ. That had to be why Peter & John to come down for them to receive the promise because the people were being fans of Philip.

    Not sure why you referred to Cornelius when that was when he was saved. He had no "refilling" event.

    Those disciples were not believers in Jesus Christ but disciples of John the Baptist. Paul found that out when he had asked them of what water baptism they were under which was John the Baptist's. Then Paul told them about Jesus Whom John the Baptist was preaching about in coming and then they believed in Him because that was when they got water baptized in His name when afterwards, they had received the promise of the Holy Ghost at their salvation. Acts 19:1-7

    Which the foolish virgins are the ones still in the market seeking to be filled continuously whereas the prudent ones has been filled and had been ready to go when the Bridegroom had come. The prudent ones can never be seen as those that seek to be continuously filled with the Spirit.

    That does not mean loss of salvation nor that one needs to continuously fill themselves up with the Holy Spirit. Indeed, that should testify that it is impossible to fill yourself up with the Holy Ghost again because He has never left and can never leave for why we are warned not to grieve the Holy Spirit. Ephesians 4:10

    Those who err from the truth and had their faith overthrown where they no longer believe in Him, He still abides; 2 Timothy 2:13 but that is why even former believers are called to depart from iniquity ( 2 Timothy 2:18-21 ) so that they may be received as vessel unto honor in His House at the pre trib rapture event which is the eternal glory that comes with our salvation in Christ Jesus ( 2 Timothy 2:10 )

    The difference between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant is that the Holy Spirit dwelling in us is forever; John 14:16-17 & Ephesians 4:30

    I hope by now you can see how the Holy Spirit is way different than unclean spirits in how they operate.

    But that is not done by seeking a continuous supernatural infilling of the Holy Spirit. It does not testify to that at all. We can prove all things by what? The scripture.

    2 Timothy 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. 14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; 15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

    That is the only way to expose the works of darkness which is by the scripture in order to not conform to the way of the world in their way of thinking..
     
  8. Any work of iniquity... denies Him. Titus 1:15-16 That means one does not have to verbally deny Him in denying Him. This is why He denies them ( 2 Timothy 2:12 ) because they were workers of iniquities ( Matthew 7:21-23 & Luke 13:24-30 ), but even former believers are still saved because He still abides in them ( 2 Timothy 2:13 ); That is why all believers having His seal are called to depart from iniquity or risk becoming castaways ( 1 Corinthians 9:24-27 ) to be received later on after the great tribulation as vessels unto dishonor in His House for not departing from iniquity ( 2 timothy 2:19-21 & 1 Peter 4:17-19 )

    God will judge His House first at the pre great trib rapture event. That is when and where the vessels unto dishonor comes from which are those unrepentant saints that shall be left behind to be received later on of their glorified terrestrial inheritance after the great tribulation whereas the firstfruits of the resurrection will receive the celestial inheritance of being vessels unto honor in His House which is the eternal glory that comes with our salvation in Christ Jesus at the pre great trib rapture event.
     
  9. They were out on the market.. because their lamps were "going out".
    Matt 25:8; "The foolish said to the prudent, 'Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.'

    I agree, but verbally or not... the results are the same. They are denied.
     
  10. But I believe the analogy is towards seeking to be filled "again" whereas why the foolish were still out at the market whereas the prudent had never gone out to the market because they knew they were filled.

    So denying one has received the Holy Spirit by faith in Jesus Christ at their salvation to seek to receive Him again after a sign of tongues apart from salvation is denying Him.
     

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