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Grace VS Law!

Member
Some people accept that we are saved by grace, but they still want to follow the Commandments to be right with God. These cannot mix. Let’s see why.

“And He [Jesus] was also telling them a parable: “No one tears a piece of cloth from a new garment and puts it on an old garment; otherwise, he will both tear the new, and the piece from the new will not match the old. And no one puts new wine into old wineskins; otherwise, the new wine will burst the skins and it will be spilled out, and the skins will be ruined. But new wine must be put into fresh wineskins” (Luke 5:36-38, NASB).

By this parable, Jesus hinted at the New Covenant of Grace coming that would replace the Old Covenant from Moses and the Law, and illustrated it by showing two pairs of completely incompatible things:

1) Old cloth (already shrunk through washing) versus new cloth (which would yet shrink and, thereby tear the garment being fixed, as it shrunk and pulled at the surrounding old cloth).

2) Old wineskin (which had already expanded when grape juice was fermented in it, making wine, thereby making the old wineskin unable to expand any further) versus new wineskin (which could expand with new wine as it fermented, whereas new wine in an old wineskin would expand and burst the old wineskin, which cannot expand any further).

So, too, that Old Testament Covenant and the New Testament Covenant are incompatible. Once a person is saved and has the new cloth and new wine of God’s Grace, the old cloth and old wine of the Law cannot work with that Grace — the old cloth will rip and the old wineskin will burst. The Old Testament Law cannot fit in with New Testament Grace. Believers covered under Grace are no longer under Law. It is one versus the other — not both Law AND Grace, but rather Law OR Grace! New Testament believers are under Grace.

“For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace” (Rom. 6:14, KJV).

Paul contrasted ‘grace through faith’ versus ‘Law through works’ this way:

“And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace; otherwise, work is no more work” (Rom. 11:6, KJV).

And still people want to obey the commandments to be right with God. When they do this, they are actually trading the superior (Grace) for the inferior (Law). The righteousness in the Law is based entirely on human performance, and none of us — repeat, none of us — can meet the standard the Law requires, which is perfect obedience.

What so many people do not realize is that the Law with all its commandments is a package deal — in other words, it’s all or nothing.

“For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all” (James 2:10, KJV).

The Law brought only a curse for disobedience, and ultimately, death.

“For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them” (Gal. 3:10, KJV).

“For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth” (Rom. 10:4, KJV).

So, for those who want Grace AND Law, the word is: STOP! Yes, stop, as in stop trading the superior (grace through faith in Christ) for the inferior (Law through obedience to the Commandments).

They cannot mix. They are mutually exclusive. Learn to do as Peter the Apostle wrote:

“But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen” (2 Peter 3;18, KJV).

Grow in God’s grace! Grow in the knowledge of what Jesus did for us on the cross!
 
Active
New wineskins for all! Yes.
The thing is Jesus gave us only two commandments that encapsulated everything that was under the old.
And these two commandments are to be written on our hearts, not in stone.

What the new testment letters were really getting at was circumcision which was required by the law of Moses. So the Jewish people thought because they practiced this plus all the other 365 odd commandments they were superior to those that didnt.
 
Loyal
The Law requires something. Grace is a gift and if it is a gift, it is free!
Free but it cost Jesus a great deal and really it costs anyone who wants to take hold of it a great deal as well:

"I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God." Rom 12:1-2

Jesus paid the price to make a Way where there was no way. What the apostle Paul wrote in the those two verses are impossible things. Jesus came that they might be possible through the Word and the Holy Ghost, but do them we must.
 
Active
Free but it cost Jesus a great deal and really it costs anyone who wants to take hold of it a great deal as well:

"I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God." Rom 12:1-2

Jesus paid the price to make a Way where there was no way. What the apostle Paul wrote in the those two verses are impossible things. Jesus came that they might be possible through the Word and the Holy Ghost, but do them we must.
The free gift is him inside you....of course we must strive, among others, to do these things as you say but, no where does it say we must be perfect at it...it is a heart thing not a deed thing, just like genuine repentance!
 
Loyal
1 Jn 2:3; By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.
1 Jn 2:4; The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;

1 Jn 3:24; The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

John 15:10' "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.

John 14:21; "He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will reveal Myself to him."

Matt 19:16; And someone came to Him and said, "Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?"
Matt 19:17; And He said to him, "Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments."
 
Loyal
Gal 5:18; But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.
Gal 5:19; Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,
Gal 5:20; idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,
Gal 5:21; envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

1 Cor 6:9; Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
1 Cor 6:10; nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

Jude 1:4; For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.
Jude 1:10; But these men revile the things which they do not understand; and the things which they know by instinct, like unreasoning animals, by these things they are destroyed.
Jude 1:11; Woe to them! For they have gone the way of Cain, and for pay they have rushed headlong into the error of Balaam, and perished in the rebellion of Korah.

2 Pet 2:1; But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.
2 Pet 2:2; Many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned;
2 Pet 2:3; and in their greed they will exploit you with false words; their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.

2 Pet 2:14; having eyes full of adultery that never cease from sin, enticing unstable souls, having a heart trained in greed, accursed children;
2 Pet 2:15; forsaking the right way, they have gone astray, having followed the way of Balaam, the son of Beor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;
2 Pet 2:16; but he received a rebuke for his own transgression, for a mute donkey, speaking with a voice of a man, restrained the madness of the prophet.
2 Pet 2:17; These are springs without water and mists driven by a storm, for whom the black darkness has been reserved.
2 Pet 2:18; For speaking out arrogant words of vanity they entice by fleshly desires, by sensuality, those who barely escape from the ones who live in error,
2 Pet 2:19; promising them freedom while they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by what a man is overcome, by this he is enslaved.

2 Pet 2:21; For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.
 
Loyal
no where does it say we must be perfect at it...it is a heart thing not a deed thing
The Bible doesn't say we will be judged by our "heart" (good intentions). It says we will be judged by our "deeds". We won't be judged by what we say, we will be judged by what we do.

Matt 16:27; "For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and WILL THEN REPAY EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS.

John 5:28; "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
John 5:29; and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Rom 2:4; Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?
Rom 2:5; But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
Rom 2:6; who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:
Rom 2:7; to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
Rom 2:8; but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.

Tit 1:16; They profess to know God, but by their deeds they deny Him, being detestable and disobedient and worthless for any good deed.

Rev 20:12; And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.
Rev 20:13; And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.

2 Cor 5:10; For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.
 
Active
Only Jews need to discuss / debate Grace vs Law. As only Jews were ever under Mosaic law.

When one says it is faith vs works. It is always interesting to hear what works and what faith they are referring to. We are saved by Jesus only after we are judged Jer 17:9-12. We are given faith in Jesus being Lord by the Holy Spirit 1 Cor 12:3, Matt 16:16-17. It is God given faith. Without works we cannot please Him to receive this faith James 4:8, Psalm 51:17, Matt 16:24. So they kind of go hand in hand.

We have to be so careful not to bring false teaching on this. Our self mustered faith is simply another word for positive thinking. Insanely false teaching that has crept into the church.
 
Active
The Bible doesn't say we will be judged by our "heart" (good intentions). It says we will be judged by our "deeds". We won't be judged by what we say, we will be judged by what we do.
I never said anything about "Good Intentions"...hell is paved with good intentions! I said a "Heart Thing"!
  • Romans 10:8-13....its what is in your heart, not intentions, but Jesus Christ!
  • Ephesians 2:8-9....Even God says we are saved by Grace, not works, so no man can boast!
Matt 16:27; "For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and WILL THEN REPAY EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS.
Our physical world is much different than God's spiritual realm. In God's realm, everything has already occurred, even before the foundation. When we die, every Man will be raised incorruptible or corruptible according to the deeds of having accepted or not-accepted Jesus Christ as a personal savior....simply put, is Jesus in you or is he not!
 
Active
1 Jn 2:3; By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.ne of us would make it to
1 Jn 2:4; The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;
Yes, we are to keep his commandments....I do my best to strive to keep his commandments but, I find myself falling short but, there is nothing in the Bible about keeping them perfectly, because , as much as we want to, we can not, we are human and not perfect, accept for one. Romans 8:1 If God relied on our perfection, no one could make it to heaven. God, being perfect, devised a perfect plan to defeat the devil and save us. That plan did not require our works...God's grace and nothing else!
Isaiah 64:6 ..... Romans 3:10
 
Loyal
The free gift is him inside you....of course we must strive, among others, to do these things as you say but, no where does it say we must be perfect at it...it is a heart thing not a deed thing, just like genuine repentance!
What the scripture does say clearly is what a person will or will not receive as a result of overcoming or not overcoming:

"He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat of the Tree of Life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God." Rev 2:7
If we do not eat of the Tree of Life, we will be dead.

"He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death." Rev 2:11
If we do not overcome we will be affected by the second death.

"He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give to him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knows except he who receives it ." Rev 2:17
Not overcoming equals no hidden manna to ear, no white stone and no new name.

"And he who overcomes and keeps My works to the end, to him I will give power over the nations." Rev 2:26
Not power over the nations given.

"The one who overcomes, this one will be clothed in white clothing. And I will not blot out his name out of the Book of Life, but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels." Rev 3:5
Not overcoming means no white clothing received and no assurance that our name would be in the Book of Life and no confession of our names by Jesus before the Father.

"Him who overcomes I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will go out no more. And I will write upon him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of Heaven from My God, and My new name." Rev 3:12
Not overcoming means we'll not be a pillar in the temple of God.

"To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me in My throne, even as I also overcame and have sat down with My Father in His throne." Rev 3:21
Not overcoming means no sitting with Jesus in His throne.


Because Jesus came and overcame the Door was open and the means to enter into it was provided. If we fail to use the means provided [Word of God and Holy Ghost] to overcome whatever stands between us and God, we will be dead with no power with no white clothing no new name written in Book of Life, not a pillar in the Temple of God, not sitting with Jesus on His throne. What pray tell would or could we have if we fail to use what He has given us to do what He expects us to do?

"And he who had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew that you were a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you did not scatter.
And I was afraid and went and hid your talent in the earth. Lo, you have yours.
His lord answered and said to him, Evil and slothful servant! You knew that I reaped where I did not sow, and gathered where I did not scatter,
then you should have put my money to the exchangers, and coming I would have received my own with interest.
Therefore take the talent from him and give it to him who has ten talents.
For to everyone who has, more shall be given, and he will abound. But from him who has not, even that which he has shall be taken away from him.
And throw the unprofitable servant into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." Matt 25:24-30


Jesus overcame the world of His own temptations, not planet Earth as we can see by looking around us today. We must do the same for He did provide what we need, our talent. What happens if we simply bury it until the Lord comes to us?
 
Loyal
On one hand Paul says we are under grace, and not the law. Rom 6:14-15;

But on the other hand he says.

Rom 2:13; for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

1 Cor 7:19; Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.

So which is it? Is Paul contradicting himself?

Paul quotes the commandments in several places.

Eph 6:1-3; Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. 2 Honor your father and mother (which is the first commandment with a promise), 3 so that it may be well with you, and that you may live long on the earth.

Rom 13:8-10; 8 Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. 9 For this, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

Gal 5:14; For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

So is love the entire law? It seems to be in the NT. But it was just a small part of the law in the OT.
The law was also circumcision, priests, animal sacrificing, stoning people and the mercy seat.

We still have a high priest (not an earthly man), there still was a lamb that was sacrificed, and there is still a mercy seat.
Jesus never "abolished" the law. he fulfilled it. All of the verses above are written to Gentiles.

Grace "only" theology loves Pauls writings, but only the grace part, not the commandments and law part.
They don't even seem to read James, Peter or 1st, 2nd and 3rd John. But even Paul says to keep the commandments.
There is no verse that says "Grace alone", in fact those two words aren't in the same verse anywhere in the Bible.
 
Active
Some people dont read the bible properly.

It is grace THROUGH faith, not grace alone.
Faith is doing the good works God has prepared you to do. It is not of yourselves lest anyone boast but of God.

In Hebrews the work Abraham did was by faith and it was counted by righteousness this work was what God had called him to do. Abraham was given grace by God but it was his faith to obey!!! Reading hebrews 11 of all the heroes of faith, they all obeyed God when He called them to do something. Read this chapter!!!

Hebrews 12 verse 15 warns us about people who fail of the grace of God! Like Esau. Hebrews 13:21 tells us may we be perfect in every good work to do His will working in you that is well pleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ, to whome glory be for ever and ever. Amen.

Grace is working IN us through faith. Some people have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin. These people need chastening. If it was grace alone, Jesus would still be here in flesh on earth and never been crucified, and therefore, never resurrected. Think about it.
 
Active
What the scripture does say clearly is what a person will or will not receive as a result of overcoming or not overcoming:
Sure, maybe we are agreeing to the same thing, Jesus is Lord and Savior, right! You want to use overcoming and not overcoming. The penalty for sin is death. How do you overcome that? By receiving Jesus inside you as personal savior, a grace and a gift of God! Romans 8:1
 
Active
Some people dont read the bible properly.

It is grace THROUGH faith, not grace alone.
Faith is doing the good works God has prepared you to do. It is not of yourselves lest anyone boast but of God.

In Hebrews the work Abraham did was by faith and it was counted by righteousness this work was what God had called him to do. Abraham was given grace by God but it was his faith to obey!!! Reading hebrews 11 of all the heroes of faith, they all obeyed God when He called them to do something. Read this chapter!!!

Hebrews 12 verse 15 warns us about people who fail of the grace of God! Like Esau. Hebrews 13:21 tells us may we be perfect in every good work to do His will working in you that is well pleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ, to whome glory be for ever and ever. Amen.

Grace is working IN us through faith. Some people have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin. These people need chastening. If it was grace alone, Jesus would still be here in flesh on earth and never been crucified, and therefore, never resurrected. Think about it.
Where does faith come from? If it were left up to us, surely we would mess that up too! Faith is another gift of God! Romans 12:3 3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
 
Loyal
Where does faith come from? If it were left up to us, surely we would mess that up too! Faith is another gift of God! Romans 12:3 3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith
Some of us do mess it up. That's where grace comes in. Grace doesn't take the place of obedience and repentance. Grace isn't so you WILL sin, Grace is for when you make a mistake.
Gifts can given away. Gifts can be refused. Also how you get saved, isn't how you "stay" saved. There is a before and after.

I can't do anything to "get" saved (but believe). But there are a lot of things I have to do to "stay" saved.

Rom 12:3; For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.

God gives "a measure of faith" to everyone.. Some choose to exercise it or believe in Him, but that isn't because He with-holds faith from them. It's His will that ALL men be saved.

Some have faith "for a while".

Luke 8:13; "Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.
 
Active
Some of us do mess it up. That's where grace comes in.
All of us mess up and grace coming in is what I believe!
Grace doesn't take the place of obedience and repentance
Never said it did!
Grace isn't so you WILL sin
So grace is a free gift and not a license to sin.....O.K., I agree to that!
Grace is for when you make a mistake.
It works for me!
I can't do anything to "get" saved (but believe). But there are a lot of things I have to do to "stay" saved.
You can't do anything to get saved and there is nothing you can do to say saved.....God calls those actions as filthy rags!
Some have faith "for a while".
Faith is a gift from God and more grace, maybe some never had it in the first place!
 
Loyal
Sure, maybe we are agreeing to the same thing, Jesus is Lord and Savior, right! You want to use overcoming and not overcoming. The penalty for sin is death. How do you overcome that? By receiving Jesus inside you as personal savior, a grace and a gift of God! Romans 8:1
I only ask that you read carefully what are the results of overcoming or the lack thereof. One of them is being allowed to eat of the Tree of Life. Without that what do we have more than Adam and Eve when they ate of the wrong tree?
 
Active
. That plan did not require our works...God's grace and nothing else!
Isaiah 64:6 ..... Romans 3:10
God's grace comes on those who ''worked''.

If Jesus never died / grace did not exist would all people be in hell? I don't believe so. There would still be a divide as there was with Abraham's bosom.

So the real question is: What was the difference between those on either side of the divide in Hades in the OT?
 

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