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God hardens hearts?

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Loyal
This is a different take on evil spirits from God, because I don't believe this is exactly the same thing.

In the OT we have verses like....

Exod 4:21; The LORD said to Moses, "When you go back to Egypt see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders which I have put in your power; but I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.
Exod 7:3; "But I will harden Pharaoh's heart that I may multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt.
Exod 14:4; "Thus I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and he will chase after them; and I will be honored through Pharaoh and all his army, and the Egyptians will know that I am the LORD." And they did so.

Now I don't believe randomly did this, or just goes around hardening peoples hearts. I believe God wants everyone to be saved. ( 2 Pet 3:9; 1 Tim 2:3-4; )
I also notice Pharaoh hardened his own heart several times before God hardened it. Exod 7:13; Exod 7:14; Exod 7:22; Exod 8:15; Exod 8:32;

Isaiah asks God why He hardens our hearts.

Isa 63:17; Why, O LORD, do You cause us to stray from Your ways And harden our heart from fearing You? Return for the sake of Your servants, the tribes of Your heritage.

In the NT we have verses like...

Rom 1:21; For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:24; Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them.
Rom 1:26; For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural,
Rom 1:28; And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper,

There may be a fine line between God hardening someone heart and just "giving them over" to a depraved mind. In any case, it seems God is done with them for a while.
You sometimes hear, God never gives up on us. You can always come back to God until your last breath. I have actually seen a death bed salvation prayer, so I know it can happen just a few minutes before you die.
But for others, maybe God just gets tired of fighting with them and closes that window.

2 Thes 2:11; For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false,

It seems that if you keep rejecting God, He will eventually just give you over to what you want.

Rom 11:8; just as it is written, "GOD GAVE THEM A SPIRIT OF STUPOR, EYES TO SEE NOT AND EARS TO HEAR NOT, DOWN TO THIS VERY DAY."

Mark 4:12; so that WHILE SEEING, THEY MAY SEE AND NOT PERCEIVE, AND WHILE HEARING, THEY MAY HEAR AND NOT UNDERSTAND, OTHERWISE THEY MIGHT RETURN AND BE FORGIVEN."

The end of that verse "otherwise they might return and be forgiven" is certainly a stumbling block for some people.

Luke says almost the same thing in Acts

Acts 28:25; And when they did not agree with one another, they began leaving after Paul had spoken one parting word, "The Holy Spirit rightly spoke through Isaiah the prophet to your fathers,
Acts 28:26; saying, 'GO TO THIS PEOPLE AND SAY, "YOU WILL KEEP ON HEARING, BUT WILL NOT UNDERSTAND; AND YOU WILL KEEP ON SEEING, BUT WILL NOT PERCEIVE;
Acts 28:27; FOR THE HEART OF THIS PEOPLE HAS BECOME DULL, AND WITH THEIR EARS THEY SCARCELY HEAR, AND THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES; OTHERWISE THEY MIGHT SEE WITH THEIR EYES, AND HEAR WITH THEIR EARS, AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART AND RETURN, AND I WOULD HEAL THEM."'

...otherwise, they might see, and hear, and understand, and return (to God) and He would heal them.

First of all none of us are guaranteed tomorrow. Any of us could die 10 minutes after reading this. But even if we don't die today, it seems God can harden some peoples hearts and make it so "they can not see, and can not hear, and cannot understand".
It seems He gives some a strong spirit of delusion, and others a spirit of stupor. Is it possible, that even if we don't die soon... God won't let us come back to Him?
 
Loyal
Rev 2:21; 'I gave her time to repent, and she does not want to repent of her immorality.
Rev 2:22; 'Behold, I will throw her on a bed of sickness, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of her deeds.

Could be that God gives some of us "time to repent". But after that time is up... there are consequences to pay.

Luke 12:20; "But God said to him, 'You fool! This very night your soul is required of you; and now who will own what you have prepared?'
 
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Member
The hardening of Pharaohs heart by God is something to take note of since God has given everyone free will EXCEPT, the ELECT. And He will not violate that free will for any reason, There are two classes, so to speak, of Gods children here upon this earth, those with free will and those that do not have free will. The Elect and those who truly ask God to come into their lives and use them as He see fit, are the only children that God will intervene in their lives. All others have total free will to do as they please and God will allow it.

Not all of Gods ELECT know or realize they are one of the ELECT. Some of the ELECT may not know the ELECT even exists. Many Christians have no idea who the Elect are. God will wake them up when He is ready to use them. Pharaoh had no idea he was one of the ELECT. And I can guarantee Pharaoh wasn’t interested in becoming an ELECT in his role of Pharaoh. He had his own god he prayed to. Knowing God’s law of free will, and God intervening and hardening Pharaohs heart, tags Pharaoh as one of Gods ELECT. It’s just common sense in the reasoning out of Gods law of free will that Pharaoh had to be one of God’s ELECT or God would not have hardened his heart.

God hardening hearts and intervening in one’s free will is a good indication of one being of the ELECT.

Paul is another one of Gods ELECT. Paul was very zealous at whatever he put his mind to. Paul, at one time was zealous to hunt down Christians to beat and imprison them until God intervened in Paul’s free will and striking him down and getting his attention. Paul ended up writing/scribing most the New Testament.

Gods Elect play good and bad roles in Gods plan of salvation. It depends on what type of of person God needs at the time to have His plan progress in the right direction. I don’t believe that God has specific roles for His Elect to play. Most of the Elect will be those who are delivered up before anti christ in his last days. But what a great honor for them to be delivered up to make that stand for God.

I’ve mentioned it before in some of my post.. Those of you that are well read in the Bible and have come across the term, MINE ELECT, but may not realize who this group of children are. This is a very special group in that these children have already overcame. They overcame during Satan’s rebellion. They are that one third that have already proven their faith unto God by their actions, when they sided with God to defeat Satan during that attempted take over, trying to over throw Gods command or plan. These children have already proved who they would follow by the act of valor, siding and fighting along side God during that rebellion.


Hope you see and understand why God has an ELECT? God performs a lot of His plan of salvation through men and women of the Elect. God always rewards loyalty and valor from his children. God just didn’t just pick anyone to be one of His ELECT. Only that one third that fought along side Him during Satan rebellion, have gained the title of the ELECT. The other two thirds of Gods children have total free will, unless they truly ask God to take hold of their life and use them as He sees fit.
 
Loyal
Everyone is the elect.

2 Pet 3:9; The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

1 Tim 2:3; This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1 Tim 2:4; who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

God doesn't want any to be unsaved, yet because of free-will, many will be.
 
Loyal
So the bible does not contradict itself.....God does not contradict himself.....God puts people into a situation where they have to make a choice, and the people stubbornly make the wrong choice. We harden our hearts out of rebellion...Pharoah did that, ....
Exodus 8:15

But when Pharaoh saw that there was respite, he hardened his heart,andhearkenednot unto them; as the Lord had said.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

Exodus 8:32

And Pharaoh hardened hisheartatthis time also, neither would he let the people go.


Exodus 9:34

And when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunders were ceased, he sinned yet more, and hardened his heart, he and his servants.


Exodus 10:1

And the Lord said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh: for I have hardened his heart, and the heart of his servants, that I might shew these my signs before him:


When we teach something we need to get all of what the Word teaches, not only a part of it...That way we get the whole picture....
Exodus 8:19

Then the magicians said unto Pharaoh, This is the finger of God: and Pharaoh's heart was hardened, and he hearkened not unto them; as the Lord had said.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

Deuteronomy 2:30

But Sihon king of Heshbon would not let us pass by him: for the Lord thy God hardened his spirit, and made his heart obstinate, that he might deliver him into thy hand, as appeareth this day.
Then you look at the Hebrew word for hardened "chazaq " and you get this definition....
  1. to strengthen, prevail, harden, be strong, become strong, be courageous, be firm, grow firm, be resolute, be sore
    1. (Qal)
      1. to be strong, grow strong
        1. to prevail, prevail upon
        2. to be firm, be caught fast, be secure
        3. to press, be urgent
        4. to grow stout, grow rigid, grow hard (bad sense)
        5. to be severe, be grievous
      2. to strengthen
    2. (Piel)
      1. to make strong
      2. to restore to strength, give strength
      3. to strengthen, sustain, encourage
      4. to make strong, make bold, encourage
      5. to make firm
      6. to make rigid, make hard
    3. (Hiphil)
      1. to make strong, strengthen
      2. to make firm
      3. to display strength
      4. to make severe
      5. to support
      6. to repair
      7. to prevail, prevail upon
      8. to have or take or keep hold of, retain, hold up, sustain, support
      9. to hold, contain
    4. (Hithpael)
      1. to strengthen oneself
      2. to put forth strength, use one's strength
      3. to withstand
      4. to hold strongly with
 
Member
No Sir my friend. The Elect are only that one third that chose to stay with God to fight back that attempted overthrow by Satan. You remember the story. One third of Gods children were deceived by Satan. He had them believing he was God Almighty. Then there was that one third that were so biblically illiterate, they didn’t know who to follow. Then there was that one third that stayed true blue with our Father and fought along side Him to put Satan back in his place. We know God did most the fighting but that one third had Gods back.

Just think about it my friend. If you had three children, and one was a little devil of the worst kind. And you had one that was happy go lucky, wasn’t much trouble but had no back bone or drive. Then you had this child that was always there to help and always telling you, I love you dad. Which child would you have favor for? I know the love of parents for their children, even when they are bad, you still love them. It’s a very natural response from loving parents. Our Father, God Almighty, is no different.

God rewarded though children that stayed and fought with Him through that attempted coup/overthrow of Satan. And God judged that one third that stood with Him and found them justified. Their GREAT WHITE THORN JUDGMENT Took place then. Meaning they overcame at that time. They have already gained eternal life and will live with God in eternity after the millennium and THE GREAT WHITE THORN JUDGEMENT DAY coming up in the near future. UNTIL THEN, GOD HAS WORK FOR THEM TO DO. God will intervene in their lives and use them as needed. Very few of the Elect will ever realize that God is using them. Any time God or Christ mentions, My Elect, My Anointed, My First Friuts, First Fruit meaning they overcame first. All three of these titles are all one group known as the Elect.

You must realize God did reward that one third that stood with Him during Satan’s attempted coup. God didn’t just tell them, good job boys go about your business, thanks. NO WAY! For their loyalty and valor, God rewarded them with eternal life and will live with God in the eternity. Until then they have work to do. The other two thirds of Gods children are working out their salvation as we speak in this realm of the flesh.
 
Loyal
No Sir my friend. The Elect are only that one third that chose to stay with God to fight back that attempted overthrow by Satan. You remember the story. One third of Gods children were deceived by Satan. He had them believing he was God Almighty. Then there was that one third that were so biblically illiterate, they didn’t know who to follow. Then there was that one third that stayed true blue with our Father and fought along side Him to put Satan back in his place. We know God did most the fighting but that one third had Gods back.

Just think about it my friend. If you had three children, and one was a little devil of the worst kind. And you had one that was happy go lucky, wasn’t much trouble but had no back bone or drive. Then you had this child that was always there to help and always telling you, I love you dad. Which child would you have favor for? I know the love of parents for their children, even when they are bad, you still love them. It’s a very natural response from loving parents. Our Father, God Almighty, is no different.

God rewarded though children that stayed and fought with Him through that attempted coup/overthrow of Satan. And God judged that one third that stood with Him and found them justified. Their GREAT WHITE THORN JUDGMENT Took place then. Meaning they overcame at that time. They have already gained eternal life and will live with God in eternity after the millennium and THE GREAT WHITE THORN JUDGEMENT DAY coming up in the near future. UNTIL THEN, GOD HAS WORK FOR THEM TO DO. God will intervene in their lives and use them as needed. Very few of the Elect will ever realize that God is using them. Any time God or Christ mentions, My Elect, My Anointed, My First Friuts, First Fruit meaning they overcame first. All three of these titles are all one group known as the Elect.

You must realize God did reward that one third that stood with Him during Satan’s attempted coup. God didn’t just tell them, good job boys go about your business, thanks. NO WAY! For their loyalty and valor, God rewarded them with eternal life and will live with God in the eternity. Until then they have work to do. The other two thirds of Gods children are working out their salvation as we speak in this realm of the flesh.
This does not line up with the Bible. Not at all.
 
Member
The Bible doesn’t contradict itself. If it appears that way we just haven’t studied deep enough. God did deliberately harden Pharaohs heart cause he wanted to show Pharaoh these great signs in that Pharaoh would know that there was a all powerful God. When Mosses would tell Pharaoh this or that would happen and those thing did occur just like Mosses said. Pharaoh did take note.
 
Loyal
The Bible doesn’t contradict itself. If it appears that way we just haven’t studied deep enough. God did deliberately harden Pharaohs heart cause he wanted to show Pharaoh these great signs in that Pharaoh would know that there was a all powerful God. When Mosses would tell Pharaoh this or that would happen and those thing did occur just like Mosses said. Pharaoh did take note.
I think you totally missed the point of my post...
 
Member
I’m sorry Bendito but I see it perfectly clear that way. It really puzzles me that you are not able see it. All I can say is your eyes and ears have not been opened to it as of yet. And I’m not throwing a cheap shot at you my friend. Gods makes it clear that only He can open ones eyes and ears to the mysteries of His plan. Man can do his best to teach or explain these mysteries of Gods plan but only God can open ones eyes. And I know that but I keep trying.

Got to admit when I was first taught of these things I wasn’t able to see them neither. But as I studied more in depth things began to line up. I don’t think any man could change my thoughts on it now. Breaking key words back into the original languages and reading the what the definition of that word is, clears things up a lot.
 
Loyal
I’m sorry Bendito but I see it perfectly clear that way. It really puzzles me that you are not able see it. All I can say is your eyes and ears have not been opened to it as of yet. And I’m not throwing a cheap shot at you my friend. Gods makes it clear that only He can open ones eyes and ears to the mysteries of His plan. Man can do his best to teach or explain these mysteries of Gods plan but only God can open ones eyes. And I know that but I keep trying.

Got to admit when I was first taught of these things I wasn’t able to see them neither. But as I studied more in depth things began to line up. I don’t think any man could change my thoughts on it now. Breaking key words back into the original languages and reading the what the definition of that word is, clears things up a lot.
No problem....When I see it in the bible I'll believe it. The stuff you share though is not in the bible.
 
Member
Bendito my friend I’m with you, if it’s in the Bible I will believe it. So you must believe the story of Satan deceiving one third of Gods children, and there was another one third of the children that were so biblically illiterate that they didn’t know who to follow, and there was that faithful one third that stood with God to fight or spoil Satan’s attempted coup/rebellion.

God didn’t say anything about destroying any of these children after Satan’s failed coup/rebellion. No, He done something very noble, He set up a plan of salvation to save all of children that would honestly repent and come back to Him. God is long suffering, meaning He has lots of patience.

You know that God has told us all things in the volume of His book, the Bible. So if you are aware of Satan’s rebellion and how two thirds of Gods children disappointed Him during that time and one third of the children pleased God by standing with Him, what’s the rest of the story pertaining to these children. How does the story go from here? These children were not destroyed by God. They didn’t just disappear. The story must continue with what happened next with these children at this time. The story of these children didn’t just end here. After all, these were God’s children. He didn’t just forget about them. Please tell me the rest of the story so I’ll know.
 
Loyal
Bendito my friend I’m with you, if it’s in the Bible I will believe it. So you must believe the story of Satan deceiving one third of Gods children, and there was another one third of the children that were so biblically illiterate that they didn’t know who to follow, and there was that faithful one third that stood with God to fight or spoil Satan’s attempted coup/rebellion.

God didn’t say anything about destroying any of these children after Satan’s failed coup/rebellion. No, He done something very noble, He set up a plan of salvation to save all of children that would honestly repent and come back to Him. God is long suffering, meaning He has lots of patience.

You know that God has told us all things in the volume of His book, the Bible. So if you are aware of Satan’s rebellion and how two thirds of Gods children disappointed Him during that time and one third of the children pleased God by standing with Him, what’s the rest of the story pertaining to these children. How does the story go from here? These children were not destroyed by God. They didn’t just disappear. The story must continue with what happened next with these children at this time. The story of these children didn’t just end here. After all, these were God’s children. He didn’t just forget about them. Please tell me the rest of the story so I’ll know.
Salvation is Only for human beings.
Free Will is only for human beings .... That also includes FREE to choose our words.

Angels do not have that right nor do they have any right to salvation.

Blessings
 
Loyal
Bendito my friend I’m with you, if it’s in the Bible I will believe it. So you must believe the story of Satan deceiving one third of Gods children, and there was another one third of the children that were so biblically illiterate that they didn’t know who to follow, and there was that faithful one third that stood with God to fight or spoil Satan’s attempted coup/rebellion.

God didn’t say anything about destroying any of these children after Satan’s failed coup/rebellion. No, He done something very noble, He set up a plan of salvation to save all of children that would honestly repent and come back to Him. God is long suffering, meaning He has lots of patience.

You know that God has told us all things in the volume of His book, the Bible. So if you are aware of Satan’s rebellion and how two thirds of Gods children disappointed Him during that time and one third of the children pleased God by standing with Him, what’s the rest of the story pertaining to these children. How does the story go from here? These children were not destroyed by God. They didn’t just disappear. The story must continue with what happened next with these children at this time. The story of these children didn’t just end here. After all, these were God’s children. He didn’t just forget about them. Please tell me the rest of the story so I’ll know.
Yes Satan did deceive and lead a third of the angels into rebellion. You've been teaching though that those "Gods children"(the bible calls angels 'sons of God' in the Old Covenant) were humans. That being the case you and I cannot agree...Why? The bibledoes not say that the sons of God were human but angels. And too, there is no salvation possible for fallen angels.
 
Member
Bendito I guess I didn’t explain it well enough that you understood what I was trying to say. What I was trying to convey was the souls/spirits that were in the sons of God at that time are the same souls/spirits that are in the flesh bodies of this day. The sons of God at that time were considered angels. But the only difference between the sons of God and a flesh human is the make up of their body. Their souls/spirits are the same. Naturally the human body is flesh, but the bodies of the sons of God are a finer body/spiritual body, one that doesn’t age or get sick like a flesh body.

Christ tells us that in Matt 22:25-30. There was a woman that had been with seven husbands. She just out lived them all. The Sadducees asked Christ, when the woman dies which Husbsnd will she be with in heaven. Christ answers them and says, ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. There is no longer marriage or given in marriage after this flesh body dies, but everyone is as the angles of God in heaven.

We in the flesh have the same type soul/spirit as the angles in heaven. The only difference is the type of body we or they have. Angels have a finer or spiritual body and the flesh person has a earthy or fleshy body. The souls/spirits are of the same type when a flesh person dies.

Although the soul and spirits go together they have different rolls. The soul is the actual essences of live of a child of God and the spirit is the intellect of that soul. Kinda like the flesh body is the so called life of man but the brain in the intellect of the flesh body.
 
Loyal
Bendito I guess I didn’t explain it well enough that you understood what I was trying to say. What I was trying to convey was the souls/spirits that were in the sons of God at that time are the same souls/spirits that are in the flesh bodies of this day. The sons of God at that time were considered angels. But the only difference between the sons of God and a flesh human is the make up of their body. Their souls/spirits are the same. Naturally the human body is flesh, but the bodies of the sons of God are a finer body/spiritual body, one that doesn’t age or get sick like a flesh body.

Christ tells us that in Matt 22:25-30. There was a woman that had been with seven husbands. She just out lived them all. The Sadducees asked Christ, when the woman dies which Husbsnd will she be with in heaven. Christ answers them and says, ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. There is no longer marriage or given in marriage after this flesh body dies, but everyone is as the angles of God in heaven.

We in the flesh have the same type soul/spirit as the angles in heaven. The only difference is the type of body we or they have. Angels have a finer or spiritual body and the flesh person has a earthy or fleshy body. The souls/spirits are of the same type when a flesh person dies.

Although the soul and spirits go together they have different rolls. The soul is the actual essences of live of a child of God and the spirit is the intellect of that soul. Kinda like the flesh body is the so called life of man but the brain in the intellect of the flesh body.
So you're saying thatthesons of God are angels and not humans? You're saying that we did not exist in heaven before we were born on Earth? You have said that before and that's what I disageeed with you on.
 
Member
The sons of God were angles and not humans or flesh beings. But those souls that were in the sons of God at that time are the same souls that are in these flesh bodies on earth of today. We all existed in the heavens as the sons of God before we became flesh men or women. You and I and all of the rest of Gods children have or will pass through this age of the flesh being born on earth through the womb of woman. And upon dying in these flesh bodies, return to the Father in that angel like body.

If I ask you where did your soul come from, being a Christian I’d hope you would say, I came from God. You would be right. But upon the death of this flesh body our soul returns the the one who gave it, the Father.

I’m not a skilled writer and I know I fall short on explaining in detail these things of God.
 
Loyal
The sons of God were angles and not humans or flesh beings. But those souls that were in the sons of God at that time are the same souls that are in these flesh bodies on earth of today. We all existed in the heavens as the sons of God before we became flesh men or women. You and I and all of the rest of Gods children have or will pass through this age of the flesh being born on earth through the womb of woman. And upon dying in these flesh bodies, return to the Father in that angel like body.

If I ask you where did your soul come from, being a Christian I’d hope you would say, I came from God. You would be right. But upon the death of this flesh body our soul returns the the one who gave it, the Father.

I’m not a skilled writer and I know I fall short on explaining in detail these things of God.
I was born body soul and spirit at conception....just like you were.
 
Loyal
1 Cor 15:44; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
1 Cor 15:45; So also it is written, "The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
1 Cor 15:46; However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual.
1 Cor 15:47; The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven.

The natural body always comes first. Our spirit doesn't exist until our body does,

Only God existed before creation came into being, there are no "spirit children" from before the world existed.
 
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