Free will

[KingJ]

It seems many do not believe in true free will and many who do, have a hard time defending it.

It is actually a very simple topic with a very simple answer and one that has irrefutable evidence.

Anti free will argument = God is omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent. One who can create from a lump of clay a vessel unto honor or dishonor Rom 9:21. True free will is an illusion as He is omniscient (all knowing). He can't but help the fact that He is an all knowing and all powerful God. Knowing from day one who is en-route to hell and who is en-route to heaven.

Free will argument:

1. God does what pleases Him Psalm 135:6. It pleases God to be impartial Acts 10:34 & 1 Tim 2:4, righteous in all His ways Psalm 145:17 and light with no darkness at all 1 John 1:5. It pleases God to become flesh Isa 9:6 and be a lamb to the slaughter for the sins of all mankind John 3:16.

IE God can be evil, but He ''CHOOSES'' to not be. He ''CHOOSES'' to do what is good and right. Just and perfect. I love the verse from Job, Job 34:12 'It is unthinkable that God would do what is evil or pervert justice''.

Now, just in case it is not obvious, cherry picking some for heaven and hell is partiality. Partiality is evil. Pure evil. If you don't think it is, try interviewing a Muslim woman forced into an arranged marriage. Or a black guy sent to prison for being a black guy.

2. Evil exists. Think on that. An 'omnipotent' (all powerful) God allows something He utterly hates to exist. To uphold free will. To uphold being good. As no 'free will' is evil.

Just as God limits His omnipotence to uphold free will. Likewise He will surely limit His omniscience to uphold free will. IE If knowing something can be proven to be evil. As is most certainly the case with partiality / applying Rom 9:21, He chooses to not know it. God limits His omniscience to uphold being good.

God is as good as He is great. The entirety of scripture outside of Rom 9 is the irrefutable evidence of true free will.

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If we teach anyone that God is partial / true free will does not exist, we would be presenting God to the lost as an evil God. Imagine being that person standing before God of the universe on judgement day, guilty of misrepresenting Him to the lost He loves and died for. Imagine thinking that one word (omniscient) defined the A-Z of his character.

 

[ABlessedMan]

It seems many do not believe in true free will and many who do, have a hard time defending it.

It is actually a very simple topic with a very simple answer and one that has irrefutable evidence.

I like this post while at the same time not completely liking this post (or moreso, agreeing word for word)

Anti free will argument = God is omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent. One who can create from a lump of clay a vessel unto honor or dishonor Rom 9:21. True free will is an illusion as He is omniscient (all knowing). He can't but help the fact that He is an all knowing and all powerful God. Knowing from day one who is en-route to hell and who is en-route to heaven.

The omni-'s do not make God evil or against free will (mostly as you explain later).
What I dislike about the people who would argue as such, is that they have usurped themselves above God -- making God have to play by their rules instead of realizing that God's thoughts are higher and more complex than we could ever imagine or be able to think.

Free will argument:

1. God does what pleases Him Psalm 135:6. It pleases God to be impartial Acts 10:34 & 1 Tim 2:4, righteous in all His ways Psalm 145:17 and light with no darkness at all 1 John 1:5. It pleases God to become flesh Isa 9:6 and be a lamb to the slaughter for the sins of all mankind John 3:16.

IE God can be evil, but He ''CHOOSES'' to not be. He ''CHOOSES'' to do what is good and right. Just and perfect. I love the verse from Job, Job 34:12 'It is unthinkable that God would do what is evil or pervert justice''.

Fair enough, although I'm not 100% on board. God cannot choose to NOT be God, for he IS God. Therefore there are attributes that he simply IS -- just, perfect, loving (his definition, not our Valentine's definition) -- and there are attributes/things that he simply IS NOT.

We like to live in a human mind-thought that God can do anything. No, he can't. He said so. God simply cannot be tempted by evil:

James 1:13
Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.

Now, just in case it is not obvious, cherry picking some for heaven and hell is partiality. Partiality is evil. Pure evil. If you don't think it is, try interviewing a Muslim woman forced into an arranged marriage. Or a black guy sent to prison for being a black guy.

I've talked with two Hindu woman (at the same time!) who were given arranged husbands and both of them loved the idea. They were afraid of the thought of "a non-arranged, gotta go dating and find someone to love" concept. So, to each their own, I guess.

2. Evil exists. Think on that. An 'omnipotent' (all powerful) God allows something He utterly hates to exist. To uphold free will. To uphold being good. As no 'free will' is evil.

This is a powerful thought to anyone who dismisses free will.

Just as God limits His omnipotence to uphold free will. Likewise He will surely limit His omniscience to uphold free will. IE If knowing something can be proven to be evil. As is most certainly the case with partiality / applying Rom 9:21, He chooses to not know it. God limits His omniscience to uphold being good.

This is where I have the most issue. God does not "limit" his omnipotence. His omnipotence exists side by side with his decision to allow man to have free will. Simply because God "knows all things future" does not mean that he forced them or predetermined them. He certainly, because he is God, can allow a free will determiniation to occur and know what the occurrances are (beforehand, duringhand, and afterhand). He's God. And because the mind of man can't wrap itself around this does not make God any less God.

God is as good as He is great. The entirety of scripture outside of Rom 9 is the irrefutable evidence of true free will.

Nothing in Romans 9 removes free will. But then, I suspect you know that as well -- you're just playing to the uneducated.

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If we teach anyone that God is partial / true free will does not exist, we would be presenting God to the lost as an evil God. Imagine being that person standing before God of the universe on judgement day, guilty of misrepresenting Him to the lost He loves and died for. Imagine thinking that one word (omniscient) defined the A-Z of his character.

Amen.

 

[KingJ]

This is where I have the most issue. God does not "limit" his omnipotence. His omnipotence exists side by side with his decision to allow man to have free will.

I can agree with that. He is as good as He is great.

Simply because God "knows all things future" does not mean that he forced them or predetermined them. He certainly, because he is God, can allow a free will determiniation to occur and know what the occurrances are (beforehand, duringhand, and afterhand). He's God. And because the mind of man can't wrap itself around this does not make God any less God.

Agreed, the mind can't wrap around it.

I will just say that since God created us and an eternal hell. If He created any with foreknowledge of their choices to accept or reject Him. It would be evil of Him. If perhaps there was no hell, only an annihilation, He can then pass as a good God.

This is why the only way to state that God is good when an eternal hell exists, is to state that He limits His omniscience.

It is like a wife having a diary in the room. The husband can read it, but he chooses not to. He respects her privacy.

Just because God can know and or do something, does not mean He does.

 

[KingJ]

@Rhema, let's not derail the other thread.

So you're a tesla bot? That's what is making the posts under KingJ ?

Or is it that you cannot help what you write because you're just biological coding?

Please try understand that typing a reply does not prove free will. That is like saying Groc AI has free will. It replies to you every time you ask it something.

Remember, I asked who is making the free will choice to write what you post.

In the case of humans that is irrelevant. We have true free will. The point I am making that you are missing is that replying to a post or choosing to reply to a post can be simple coding. I can make a Christian Tesla bot who only responds to heresy on Christian forums.

Repeating a thing ad nauseam doesn't make it true.

I should not have to repeatedly type 1 + 1 = 2, it should be obvious. Why is not obvious to you?

But your bot comment seems to imply that God made creation as some cosmic wind up clock that ticks away on its coding, and you're just a cog in that cosmic wheel of creation.

My bot comment is a reply to your statement that 'us typing is evidence of free will'. You are now creating a rabbit trail

A human is a lot more than a tesla bot.

This is a presumption if God is the creator of free will.

Does God have free will? And are you not made in the image of God? (Here even you ought to be able to put 2 and 2 together.)

Being made in the image of God is an interesting thought for sure. But you are digressing.

We are created beings, whether in the image of God or not, if God does not limit His omniscience, we have no true free will.

No, KingJ, cosmology is not as simple as addition. It's reductio ad absurdum.

It's not. The term is not tripping me up. The idea that God blew out part of his brain so that he cannot know all that is knowable in order for humans to have the illusion of free will... well, that's absurd.

Well I would not use the example of Him blowing half His brain up. Rather, I would imagine Him simply choosing to 'look away'. Just like you and I should when our wives write in their diary.

There ARE other views,

Share!

but you reject any view that is not your own so it's not worth the time to explain.

You said me typing = free will...

A "tesla post" ??

Whatever you mean by "tesla bot," NO, it doesn't think anything.

Yes, and yet it can type a reply to you using Groc ai.

It is not me, but you, who sees that as evidence of free will.

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Please do explain how an all knowing God can give us true free will. Try focus on that. You are all over the show.

There is no need for this to be a heated exchange. We both defending free will, we are for once in agreement.