Free-will, Molinism, and Predestination

[B-A-C]

Every Christian, whether he knows it or not, falls into one of the categories above.

How do you know which category you fall into? Before I give the classic definitions of each category,
I would ask you to read the following text.

1 Sam 23:6; Now it came about, when Abiathar the son of Ahimelech fled to David at Keilah, that he came down with an ephod in his hand.
1 Sam 23:7; When it was told Saul that David had come to Keilah, Saul said, “God has delivered him into my hand, for he shut himself in by entering a city with double gates and bars.”
1 sam 23:8; So Saul summoned all the people for war, to go down to Keilah to besiege David and his men.
1 Sam 23:9; Now David knew that Saul was plotting evil against him; so he said to Abiathar the priest, “Bring the ephod here.”
1 Sam 23:10; Then David said, “O Lord God of Israel, Your servant has heard for certain that Saul is seeking to come to Keilah to destroy the city on my account.
1 Sam 23:11; Will the men of Keilah surrender me into his hand? Will Saul come down just as Your servant has heard? O Lord God of Israel, I pray, tell Your servant.” And the Lord said, “He will come down.”
1 Sam 23:12; Then David said, “Will the men of Keilah surrender me and my men into the hand of Saul?” And the Lord said, “They will surrender you.”
1 Sam 23:13; Then David and his men, about six hundred, arose and departed from Keilah, and they went wherever they could go. When it was told Saul that David had escaped from Keilah, he gave up the pursuit.
1 Sam 23:14; David stayed in the wilderness in the strongholds, and remained in the hill country in the wilderness of Ziph. And Saul sought him every day, but God did not deliver him into his hand.

There are a few other places like this in the Bible. They will be forth-coming.
We see where people thought to themselves... "God did.." or "God said..."
For example in verse 7 above... Saul says "God has delivered David into my hands".
Now Saul may have thought that... but it doesn't say God actually said that. As it turns out,
David was not delivered into Saul's hands.

However then... David prays to God. He asks God to let him know what will happen in certain future
events. "Will Saul come down" (after me) (verse 11)
God answers... "Yes, he will come" (verse 11)
Then David asks if the men of Keilah will turn him over to Saul when he comes (verse 12)
God answers... "Yes they turn you over to Saul".
So David takes his men, and they run away.... (verse 13)
As it turns out, when Saul finds out that David has left Keilah, Saul quits chasing after him (for a while).
But then Saul continues to pursue him out in the wilderness "every day"... but God never lets
Saul find David.

So the question becomes... Why did God say the men of Keilah will deliver David to Saul?
Was it to cause David to run away? Perhaps God knew in advance David would run away.
Or was it to see if David would run away or not?
God cannot lie, so why didn't the events happen as God answered David?
Do we as humans have the ability to change what happens?

We puny humans are not more powerful than God. But it may be that He lets us make our own decisions
and choices. The argument becomes if God is in control of everything, he has to control us also.
The other side says, If God is really in control of everything, it doesn't matter what we do or decide,
He is still God even when we disobey Him.

God told Adam not to eat of the fruit of a certain tree. Yet Adam did it anyway.
Did God cause this to happen? Was God lying when He told Adam He didn't want him to eat of the tree?
Or Did Adam make the choice in his own free-will?

... to be continued ...

 

[Bendito]

Where does the bible say that God is in control...And in control of us? Or should I let you finish your post first?

 

[B-A-C]

I think k this comes from the different ways certain verses are interpreted. But for me personally.. I believe God controls our circumstances but not our decisions.

 

[Bendito]

I think k this comes from the different ways certain verses are interpreted. But for me personally.. I believe God controls our circumstances but not our decisions.

I understand that...but how does that line up with Genesis 1:28?
Genesis 1:27-29 (KJV)
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

 

[Bendito]

I understand that...but how does that line up with Genesis 1:28?
Genesis 1:27-29 (KJV)
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

This puts US in charge in the Earth don't you think? Subdue the Earth...rule over the animals etc......

 

[B-A-C]

Hmmm.... well, again it depends on how take certain verses.

Some take Psalms 37:23; to mean... you can't even take a step without God's permission.
Other's take it to mean, there is a certain place God wants a man to walk... (but He doesn't force us
to walk in that place)

There are other similar verses.

So even if man is "in charge" of the earth... Is God in charge of man? (Is God is charge of the man who is in charge of the earth?)
Ultimately God is in charge. But what does that mean? In charge of what? In control of what?

Of us... of you. of me.

But how much in charge?
Does He force His will on our every single action? Is there no such thing as free will?

Does He let us do whatever we want and He doesn't really care what we do?

Does He control only the circumstances we are in, or does He control our decisions also?

I have no doubt He guides us, He persuades us, He leads us... He probably even puts
us in certain circumstances in order for us to see something, or learn something, or perhaps
even to try to get us to do something.... but even after all of that... does He force us to do it?

 

[B-A-C]

Molinism.. is much like the old role playing books that were popular in the 1960's.

I had several of these books. I was a cowboy fighting Indians. I was a space ranger fighting aliens.
I was a World War II soldier fighting Nazi's. I was a castaway fighting Pirates.

Of course I was barely a teenager at the time... but in my mind... I saved the world so many times you
wouldn't believe it.

The books usually worked like this...

You read to page 8 or so... then you have to make a decision...
Do you sneak into the pirate camp and save the girl (there's always a girl).. or do you run away?

Usually if you ran away, you died a couple of pages later. Needless to say, I died quite a few times
while working through the story. Too bad real life isn't like those books. Too bad we don't
always get a "do over" when we mess up. In some ways we do. God never gives up on us, but
on the other hand, sometimes once a decision is made, we can't change it.

But in the books, I could always go back and save the girl, and then read for 6 or 7 more pages,
then make another decision. I could die or save the world again.

Some people view God a writing our book. There is only one beginning and there is only one ending.

Others view God as writing our book with multiple endings, He knows all of our decisions and all of our
possible ending, nothing takes Him by surprise... but yet we still have free choice.

 

[Bendito]

Molinism.. is much like the old role playing books that were popular in the 1960's.

I had several of these books. I was a cowboy fighting Indians. I was a space ranger fighting aliens.
I was a World War II soldier fighting Nazi's. I was a castaway fighting Pirates.

Of course I was barely a teenager at the time... but in my mind... I saved the world so many times you
wouldn't believe it.

The books usually worked like this...

You read to page 8 or so... then you have to make a decision...
Do you sneak into the pirate camp and save the girl (there's always a girl).. or do you run away?

Usually if you ran away, you died a couple of pages later. Needless to say, I died quite a few times
while working through the story. Too bad real life isn't like those books. Too bad we don't
always get a "do over" when we mess up. In some ways we do. God never gives up on us, but
on the other hand, sometimes once a decision is made, we can't change it.

But in the books, I could always go back and save the girl, and then read for 6 or 7 more pages,
then make another decision. I could die or save the world again.

Some people view God a writing our book. There is only one beginning and there is only one ending.

Others view God as writing our book with multiple endings, He knows all of our decisions and all of our
possible ending, nothing takes Him by surprise... but yet we still have free choice.

Let me step aside here for a bit and ask...Why look at religious philosophy and not at God alone?
Molinism is a strange philosophy that does not consider the Love of God...Its thinking is totally nonlinear but rather it's circular and ends up nowhere...
If we concentrate only on God's Word we can see the Love of our Father toward His children, and His desire to train us and educate us. To grow us up to be healthy and wise and well adjusted like He is...Free to do wonderful things and to glorify our Father.

While you consider this I'm going to go get some brekky...