F I R M A M E N T U M

[Daniel L.]

-The firmament is so "firm" it can support the waters above the firmament:

Genesis 1:7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

-The sun and moon move relative to the earth, but the earth does not move:

Isaiah 38:8 Behold, I will bring again the shadow of the degrees, which is gone down in the sun dial of Ahaz, ten degrees backward. So the sun returned ten degrees, by which degrees it was gone down.

Joshua 10:12 Then spake Joshua to the Lord in the day when the Lord delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon; and thou, Moon, in the valley of Ajalon.
13 And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.

-The earth is a circle on the face of the deep:

Proverbs 8:27 When He prepared the heavens, I was there, When He drew a circle on the face of the deep,

So, "outer space" is not void, it is water. The sun and moon move relative to the earth, but the earth does not move. And the earth is a circle on the "face" of the deep, which makes it flat in terms of geometry. Let the Word speak:

Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

 

[complete]

-The firmament is so "firm" it can support the waters above the firmament:

Genesis 1:7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

-The sun and moon move relative to the earth, but the earth does not move:

Isaiah 38:8 Behold, I will bring again the shadow of the degrees, which is gone down in the sun dial of Ahaz, ten degrees backward. So the sun returned ten degrees, by which degrees it was gone down.

Joshua 10:12 Then spake Joshua to the Lord in the day when the Lord delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon; and thou, Moon, in the valley of Ajalon.
13 And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.

-The earth is a circle on the face of the deep:

Proverbs 8:27 When He prepared the heavens, I was there, When He drew a circle on the face of the deep,

So, "outer space" is not void, it is water. The sun and moon move relative to the earth, but the earth does not move. And the earth is a circle on the "face" of the deep, which makes it flat in terms of geometry. Let the Word speak:

Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

'And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters,
and let it divide the waters from the waters.
And God made the firmament,
and divided the waters which were under the firmament
from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
And God called the firmament Heaven.'
(Gen.1:6-8)

'And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven
to divide the day from the night;
and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven
to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
And God made two great lights;
the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night:
he made the stars also.
And God set them in the firmament of the heaven
to give light upon the earth,
And to rule over the day and over the night,
and to divide the light from the darkness:
and God saw that it was good.'
(Gen 1:14-18)

'And God said,
Let the waters bring forth abundantly
the moving creature that hath life,
and fowl that may fly above the earth
in the open firmament of heaven.'
(Gen 1:20)

Hi @Daniel L,

Yes, let the word of God speak.

The FIRMAMENT is the word given for the Heavens, and these verses tell us what is in the firmament, don't they? The sun, moon and stars, to give light upon the earth, to divide darkness from light, and for signs, seasons days and years, all the measurements of time. So the firmament includes the greater atmosphere surrounding the earth and beyond into the universe which surrounds the earth. It also contains the fowls of the air, which fly in the open firmament of heaven. Yet there are 'waters' above it, as well as below it on the surface of the earth itself.

Praise God!

'The heavens declare the glory of God;
and the firmament sheweth His handywork.
Day unto day uttereth speech,
and night unto night sheweth knowledge.
There is no speech nor language,
where their voice is not heard.'
(Psalm 19:1-3)

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Daniel L.]

'The heavens declare the glory of God;
and the firmament sheweth His handywork.

Right but I want to talk about the solid firmament, because there are seven Heavens. When I say firmament, I mean the solid firmament, not the open firmament. I could call it heavens, but because there are seven Heavens, it is best to specify, and talk about the solid firmament:

Job 37:18 Hast thou with him spread out the sky, which is strong, and as a molten looking glass?

-In Job it isn't the atmosphere they are refering to, but the solid Heaven, or the solid firmament, which is strong like solid glass.

 

[complete]

Right but I want to talk about the solid firmament, because there are seven Heavens. When I say firmament, I mean the solid firmament, not the open firmament. I could call it heavens, but because there are seven Heavens, it is best to specify, and talk about the solid firmament:

Job 37:18 Hast thou with him spread out the sky, which is strong, and as a molten looking glass?

-In Job it isn't the atmosphere they are referring to, but the solid Heaven, or the solid firmament, which is strong like solid glass.

Hello @Daniel L.

It is only the heavens which are called the FIRMAMENT surely, the solid substance is called the 'Earth' consisting of solid ground and the waters of the earth (Genesis 1:10). In Job 37:18 Elihu, one of Job's friends said:- 'Wast thou with Him (when) He spread out the sky (skies); and made it like a molten mirror (firm)?

* In Genesis 2:4-6, we are given an idea of what the earth consisted of:-

'These are the generations of the heavens
and of the earth when they were created,
in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,
And every plant of the field before it was in the earth,
and every herb of the field before it grew:
for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth,
and there was not a man to till the ground.
But there went up a mist from the earth,
and watered the whole face of the ground.'

* Following the flood of judgment, we are told:-

And God remembered Noah, and every living thing,
and all the cattle that was with him in the ark:
and God made a wind to pass over the earth,
and the waters assuaged;
The fountains also of the deep
and the windows of heaven were stopped,
and the rain from heaven was restrained;
And the waters returned from off the earth continually:
and after the end of the hundred and fifty days
the waters were abated.'

* I quote these verses in order to establish the nature of the earth and the heavens (firmament) as God created it.
* What is it you wish to discuss, Daniel L, regarding the firmament as described in Job 37:18?

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Daniel L.]

the firmament as described in Job 37:18?

I don't know why you brought up the earth, when the verse says, the skies, or heavens, the solid firmament which is strong. Not the earth, not the atmosphere, the SOLID firmament of the skies, that divides the waters from the waters, this firmament is strong:

e. firm, hard, of face, פנים

firm1
/fəːm/
adjective

1. having a solid, almost unyielding surface or structure.

hard
/hɑːd/
adjective


1. solid, firm, and rigid; not easily broken, bent, or pierced.

solid
/ˈsɒlɪd/
adjective

1. firm and stable in shape; not liquid or fluid.

 

[complete]

I don't know why you brought up the earth, when the verse says, the skies, or heavens, the solid firmament which is strong. Not the earth, not the atmosphere, the SOLID firmament of the skies, that divides the waters from the waters, this firmament is strong:

e. firm, hard, of face, פנים

firm1
/fəːm/
adjective

1. having a solid, almost unyielding surface or structure.

hard
/hɑːd/
adjective


1. solid, firm, and rigid; not easily broken, bent, or pierced.

solid
/ˈsɒlɪd/
adjective

1. firm and stable in shape; not liquid or fluid.

Hello @daniel L,

So, why have you raised this as a subject? Why are you not taking it forward?

 

[Daniel L.]

So, why have you raised this as a subject? Why are you not taking it forward?

Because many think they live on a spinning ball, and so they get dizzy because of it. I'm here to stabilize your world, in a fixed and sure foundation, that it shall not be moved.

And we took it forward, the firmament is solid, not the atmosphere, not the earth. It is a solid firmament in the skies. And the earth is a circle.

 

[complete]

Because many think they live on a spinning ball, and so they get dizzy because of it. I'm here to stabilize your world, in a fixed and sure foundation, that it shall not be moved.

And we took it forward, the firmament is solid, not the atmosphere, not the earth. It is a solid firmament in the skies. And the earth is a circle.

'Hast thou with Him spread out the sky,
which is strong, and as a molten looking glass?'
(Job 37:18)

Hello @Daniel L,

We do live on what is essentially a spinning ball: but God has so balanced it that it does not make our head spin. The whole of His creation is a wonder to us, it is incredibly wonderful.

What do you make of the verse from Job, yourself? In chapter 37 we are called upon to consider His wondrous works.
This is indeed an interesting verse. The danger as with all Scripture is to read into it what is not there, by using our own understanding. The firmament is indeed firm, yet birds fly in it, and aircraft travel through it, and today rockets soar upwards through it and beyond to the moon and beyond.

I do not understand the concept of it being as a looking glass, that reflective quality in relation to the firmament is not something I can understand, perhaps you can, Daniel.

Thank you for sharing.
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[complete]

'And many of them that sleep
in the dust of the earth
shall awake,
some to everlasting life,
and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
And they that be wise shall shine
as the brightness of the firmament;
and they that turn many to righteousness
as the stars for ever and ever.'
(Dan 12:2-3)

Hello again @daniel L,

Perhaps it is not the reflective quality of the 'molten mirror' that is being referred to in Job 37:18 but it's very brightness, as in the verse from Daniel 12:3 above.

The word 'molten', causes me to think of the one working in precious metal, who is satisfied when he can see his likeness shining back at him from the molten metal he is working on, for all dross will have been removed, and what is left is pure.

'But we all, with open face beholding
as in a glass the glory of the Lord,
are changed into the same image
from glory to glory,
even as by the Spirit of the Lord.'
(2Co 3:18)

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Admon Mikha'el]

-The firmament is so "firm" it can support the waters above the firmament:

Genesis 1:7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

-The sun and moon move relative to the earth, but the earth does not move:

Isaiah 38:8 Behold, I will bring again the shadow of the degrees, which is gone down in the sun dial of Ahaz, ten degrees backward. So the sun returned ten degrees, by which degrees it was gone down.

Joshua 10:12 Then spake Joshua to the Lord in the day when the Lord delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon; and thou, Moon, in the valley of Ajalon.
13 And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.

-The earth is a circle on the face of the deep:

Proverbs 8:27 When He prepared the heavens, I was there, When He drew a circle on the face of the deep,

So, "outer space" is not void, it is water. The sun and moon move relative to the earth, but the earth does not move. And the earth is a circle on the "face" of the deep, which makes it flat in terms of geometry. Let the Word speak:

Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

I thought this teaching passed with Galileo. The Earth moves around the sun...The moon moves around the Earth and it all works....Is the Earth flat too?

 

[Admon Mikha'el]

Right but I want to talk about the solid firmament, because there are seven Heavens. When I say firmament, I mean the solid firmament, not the open firmament. I could call it heavens, but because there are seven Heavens, it is best to specify, and talk about the solid firmament:

Job 37:18 Hast thou with him spread out the sky, which is strong, and as a molten looking glass?

-In Job it isn't the atmosphere they are refering to, but the solid Heaven, or the solid firmament, which is strong like solid glass.

The word 'firmament' means an expanse considered to be flat....the bible does not say that firmament was solid.... No more than the foundation of the Earth is solid...unless you mean its supported by four elephants standing on a turtles back....?

 

[complete]

The word 'firmament' means an expanse considered to be flat....the bible does not say that firmament was solid.... No more than the foundation of the Earth is solid...unless you mean its supported by four elephants standing on a turtles back....?

Hello @Admon Mikha'el,

If it were 'flat' then the rainbow would not be a bow in the Sky, but a straight line, yes? Or is that as stupid as it sounds?

 

[complete]

-The firmament is so "firm" it can support the waters above the firmament:

Genesis 1:7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

-The sun and moon move relative to the earth, but the earth does not move:

Isaiah 38:8 Behold, I will bring again the shadow of the degrees, which is gone down in the sun dial of Ahaz, ten degrees backward. So the sun returned ten degrees, by which degrees it was gone down.

Joshua 10:12 Then spake Joshua to the Lord in the day when the Lord delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon; and thou, Moon, in the valley of Ajalon.
13 And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.

-The earth is a circle on the face of the deep:

Proverbs 8:27 When He prepared the heavens, I was there, When He drew a circle on the face of the deep,

So, "outer space" is not void, it is water. The sun and moon move relative to the earth, but the earth does not move. And the earth is a circle on the "face" of the deep, which makes it flat in terms of geometry. Let the Word speak:

Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

'Which commandeth the sun, and it riseth not;
and sealeth up the stars.
Which alone spreadeth out the heavens,
and treadeth upon the waves of the sea.
Which maketh Arcturus, Orion, and Pleiades,
and the chambers of the south.
Which doeth great things past finding out;
yea, and wonders without number.'
(Job 9:7-10)

Hello @Daniel L,

Though I do not support your thoughts regarding this: I do love the Scriptures that you have presented in support of what you say. They remind me of what was said concerning the Lord Jesus Christ, during His earthly ministry, that the winds and the waves obey His voice; so we should not be surprised if that also includes the sun and the moon, and the stars that He set on their courses and named.

Thankfully as the Creator of all things, the Lord knows all about these things, and from His vantage point He can see the earth, and all that is therein; so I would prefer to leave the knowledge of these things in His hands. It isn't important, what matters is that God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself (2 Corinthians 5:19), and that He has made the way open for all who believe on His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, and the efficacy of His one sacrifice for sin, to receive His gift of resurrection life, through His Name.

Thank you.

With love
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Daniel L.]

We do live on what is essentially a spinning ball

That is just your own understanding, because Scripture testifies of a stable circle.

Proverbs 8:27 When He prepared the heavens, I was there, When He drew a circle on the face of the deep,

Joshua 10:12 Then spake Joshua to the Lord in the day when the Lord delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon; and thou, Moon, in the valley of Ajalon.
13 And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.

-A circle is two dimentional geometric figure drawn on a flat surface, or face. And when the sun stood still, it means the earth was already still, so they only had to stop the sun and moon.

The firmament is indeed firm, yet birds fly in it

Birds can't fly in a solid firmament, they fly in the open firmament. I'm talking about the solid firmament, in Job, which is strong. This is not the open firmament, where the birds fly, don't confuse the two.

 

[Daniel L.]

The Earth moves around the sun...

Chapter and verse? Or is this just your own understanding? -Because Scripture testifies of the sun moving around the earth.

Psalm 19:6 His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof.

Is the Earth flat too?

Yes.

Proverbs 8:27 When He prepared the heavens, I was there, When He drew a circle on the face of the deep,

the bible does not say that firmament was solid....

Yes, it does. There is a solid strong firmament.

Job 37:18 Hast thou with him spread out the sky, which is strong, and as a molten looking glass?

e. firm, hard, of face, פנים

firm1
/fəːm/
adjective

1. having a solid, almost unyielding surface or structure.

hard
/hɑːd/
adjective


1. solid, firm, and rigid; not easily broken, bent, or pierced.

solid
/ˈsɒlɪd/
adjective

1. firm and stable in shape; not liquid or fluid.

 

[Daniel L.]

The word 'firmament' means an expanse considered to be flat...

From Strong's

2 the vault of heaven, or 'firmament,' regarded by Hebrews as solid, and supporting 'waters' above it, Genesis 1:6

 

[Admon Mikha'el]

Hello @Admon Mikha'el,

If it were 'flat' then the rainbow would not be a bow in the Sky, but a straight line, yes? Or is that as stupid as it sounds?

Absolutelly right! The rainbow would be a rainline if the Earth and its foundation were flat. Draw a line from your home city to say...Melbourne Au and on a paper map it would be a straight line...On a globe it would curve like the bow.

 

[Admon Mikha'el]

From Strong's

2 the vault of heaven, or 'firmament,' regarded by Hebrews as solid, and supporting 'waters' above it, Genesis 1:6

Daniel you're not using intelligence to come to these conclusions...You're misusing Word. If you look at a ball from a distance, even a very small distance, it looks like a circle...Look at a picture of the solar system and Earth is a circle...
You're talking a two dimensional world when we live in a five dimensional world....actually its a twelve dimensional world but the last seven are purely mathematical, so I don't count them. YOU are a three dimensional being, possibly four living on a two dimensional world? Explain that. Not to put you down but your reasoning is, to say the least, flawed.

 

[Daniel L.]

The rainbow would be a rainline if the Earth and its foundation were flat.

No, the rainbow is a bow because the firmament is a bow, the light in the rainbow reflects in the skies, not from the earth. And because the firmament is like a bow, you see the reflection of light accordingly.

it looks like a circle...

You shall not add unto the Word.. It says He drew a circle, not "what looks like a circle but really isn't." That would be deception and a lie, to call a sphere a circle. So, because the Word is Truth, the earth is a circle, as it is written. Not that it is true because it is written, but it is written because it is True.

actually its a twelve dimensional world but the last seven are purely mathematical

Cahpter and verse? Or just your own understanding?

living on a two dimensional world?

Yes, just like a three dimentional laptop on top of the two dimentional surface of the table. There is no flaw.

 

[Admon Mikha'el]

No, the rainbow is a bow because the firmament is a bow, the light in the rainbow reflects in the skies, not from the earth. And because the firmament is like a bow, you see the reflection of light accordingly.

You shall not add unto the Word.. It says He drew a circle, not "what looks like a circle but really isn't." That would be deception and a lie, to call a sphere a circle. So, because the Word is Truth, the earth is a circle, as it is written. Not that it is true because it is written, but it is written because it is True.

Cahpter and verse? Or just your own understanding?

Yes, just like a three dimentional laptop on top of the two dimentional surface of the table. There is no flaw.

Daniel God gave you intelligence and eyes to observe and SEE....He also gave us the Word.....God expects you to think...since you don't want to think and see the obvious, I won't talk to you again