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Moderator
Staff Member
Greetings,

a short question which is open for long answers!

Does eternal life mean there must be eternal death? (like the fire that burns forever).
If we die to sin, then surely we die to it permanently, or else it is not dead and dead is dead, which is forever., otherwise it is not really dead.


and may I add one more thought?
...the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. from Revelation 21:8
is the second death that lake? (please read, study and pray before replying)-(that is, be prayerful in reading and studying!)


What shall we say then?
Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
God forbid.
How shall we,
  • that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
  • Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death?
  • Therefore we are buried with Him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
  • For if we have been planted together in the likeness of His death, we shall be also in the likeness of His resurrection:
  • Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
  • For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him: Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over Him. For in that He died, He died unto sin once: but in that He liveth, He liveth unto God. Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Romans 6:1-11


Bless you ....><>
 
Loyal
If we die to sin, then surely we die to it permanently, or else it is not dead and dead is dead
Dead people were raised from the dead. There are many testimonies that this even happens in this day
and time. In Matt 10:8; Jesus tells his followers... "raise the dead".

James 1:15; Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.

Sin can be "birthed" and "rebirthed".

seven verses later it says... be doers of the word, not just hearers who delude themselves.

Paul said that he had to die to his sin "daily". 1 Cor 15:31; it wasn't a "once and done" thing.

Jesus said we had to take up our cross daily. Luke 9:23; it wasn't a "one time" thing.
What does our cross signify? Our death to the old sinful self.
 
Loyal
Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him: Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over Him. For in that He died, He died unto sin once: but in that He liveth, He liveth unto God. Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Romans 6:1-11
Hmmm.... I'm not really sure if that's an accurate quote of those verses. What translation are you using?

Just for sake of clarity... I would like to include what I would say is a "more complete" translation.

Rom 6:1; What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?
Rom 6:2; May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?

Even though we may be dead to sin, we are certainly still capable of "continuing in sin".

Rom 6:3; Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?
Rom 6:4; Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5; For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,
Rom 6:6; knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;
Rom 6:7; for he who has died is freed from sin.
Rom 6:8; Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,
Rom 6:9; knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him.
Rom 6:10; For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.
Rom 6:11; Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
Rom 6:12; Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts,

It seems Paul believes we are still capable of letting sin reign in us.

Rom 6:13; and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.

It appears that Paul believes we are are capable of being "instruments of unrighteousness".
.
Rom 6:14; For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
 
Active
Does eternal life mean there must be eternal death? (like the fire that burns forever).
If we die to sin, then surely we die to it permanently, or else it is not dead and dead is dead, which is forever., otherwise it is not really dead.
Eternal means no beginning and no end,always was and always will be.
Eternal death has no beginning and no end,always was and always will be.

If we try to think how this can apply in time and space it just does not make any sense whatsoever.
The past is not and the future is not,the only thing that is real is "now".
It has always been now and always will be.Now has no beginning and no end.

To know God is eternal life,to know "now" is eternal life or eternal death.
If your "now' is knowing God you "are" life and always have been.
If your now is waiting for God then you are eternally waiting and always have been.
If your now is dark you are in eternal darkness and always have been.

1 Corinthians 15:45 So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.
Adam being stuck in time and space could change and become.
In the spirit you cannot "become" because you are eternal.
Eternal can not change or it would not be eternal.

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
How can we interpret this verse in our understanding.Jesus says that he came from heaven but never left?
The only answer I can think of is that he came from something real and was till there.he came into time and space which is a dream.
The people and things in your dreams are not real and they are all just perspectives of the dreamer and if you had to explain that to them you might say"No one has woken up in bed except the one who came from bed and is still in bed".

Luke 11:7 And suppose the one inside answers, 'Don't bother me. The door is already locked, and my children and I are in bed. I can't get up and give you anything.'

What if we are already with God and we just need to wake up and find we never left?
When I read scripture with this mindset it actually makes sense,but not human sense.
1 Corinthians 15:20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.

Malachi 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.


Now=eternal
Now faith=faith in the eternal
Now faith "is"= the eternal is now,God called himself "I am".I am "is".
Now faith is substance= when you operate in "now faith" you experience eternal substance.
Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen

These things are beyond our puny timespace locked five senses and the brain that uses them to tell us the truth.
Jesus is the truth,the way,the life,the light and the resurrection.
The second coming is an eternal event not an event in linear time.
 
Moderator
Staff Member
Hmmm.... I'm not really sure if that's an accurate quote of those verses. What translation are you using?
I do believe that our Brother is using the KJV as you are using the NASB

Yet both in spirit are saying the same.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My small input here, to no one in particular. if I may.

Let's keep in mind that Paul guided by the Holy Spirit had a keen way of communicating the continued sinfulness of the flesh with the redeemed Spirit. For me the easiest way to say it is. "Flesh is sin/death" and "Spirit purity/life". For now the battle rages on, even though we know the victor in the end, because we have Christ in us.

Thank-you all for continuing in digging ever deeper into His Word. It truly brings me great joy in reading you alls word in this thread!
YBIC
C4E
<><
 
Loyal
Greetings,

a short question which is open for long answers!

Does eternal life mean there must be eternal death? (like the fire that burns forever).
If we die to sin, then surely we die to it permanently, or else it is not dead and dead is dead, which is forever., otherwise it is not really dead.
Indeed, to be dead is to be without life. What can a non-living thing do according to man's natural perceptions? What does Solomon write of the dead?

"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten." Ecc 9:5

Death can be an unending thing, but it is not always so, is it? Jesus showed us clearly by examples that natural death could be reversed by the power of God. But... he also spoke of reversing the spiritual death of sin into which every one of us was born when we exited out natural mother's womb.

Is there an unending death? If there is, why must we speak of such death being an existence of unending torment when the verse quoted above says "the dead know not anything"?

and may I add one more thought?
...the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. from Revelation 21:8
is the second death that lake? (please read, study and pray before replying)-(that is, be prayerful in reading and studying!)
Whatever the "lake of fire" is, it is seemingly a final end for some as mentioned in the verse you quoted. It speaks of "the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers", etc. Could we say this is all of the unbelievers or might it be only those who have believed and fallen into unbelief?

Why do people who never believed need an additional punishment? Is not every person born into the natural world we call planet Earth already in condemnation?

"He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." John 3:18

Those who are already condemned are dead already according to Jesus:

"Let the dead bury their dead" Matt 8:22

For them, unless they obtain the Life of Jesus, there is no second death. They are already dead and will remain so although burial may be required.

What shall we say then?
Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
God forbid.
How shall we,
  • that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
What does this verse mean to you?

"Quench not the Spirit." I Thess 5:19

Isn't the apostle writing about the Holy Spirit within us?

What does that Spirit do within us?

"Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life." II Cor 3:6

Doesn't this mean that the Body of Jesus [the scripture?] that we have eaten will die without the Spirit? When we quench it, when we put it out, is that not putting out the Light in us, the Life in us? When we sin after being "saved" is that not what we do? The power of God in us is just as strong as it is in the man Jesus in carnal flesh... but we have also the power to "limit" God. When we do, isn't it because we have chosen to sin?

Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death?
  • Therefore we are buried with Him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
  • For if we have been planted together in the likeness of His death, we shall be also in the likeness of His resurrection:
  • Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
  • For he that is dead is freed from sin.
To be baptized is to be immersed. We are to be immersed in water and we are to be immersed in the Word of God. We are to be immersed in the Spirit of God. We are to be immersed in Him. we are to be in Him.

Jesus overcame the world of "the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life" [I John 2:16] as our sacrifice and as our example. He paid the price for us, but he also showed us what we needed to do. All that is necessary for you and I to become overcomers like him has been provided. All we have to do is to become immersed and stay that way so that the work in us can be completed. Every time we quench the Spirit, we delay or stop the work. Every time we eat something (not material eating) other than Jesus, we hinder the process by giving the Holy Spirit the new work of cleaning up our new mess.

It's kind of like a person on very good healthy diet who pauses to go on another "fast food restaurant binge" and then rushes home to get back on the diet. If he does this daily, how likely is it that he will lose the desired weight?

Do we want to be saved and live however we want in this world of men too? "Ye cannot serve God and mammon."

Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him: Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over Him. For in that He died, He died unto sin once: but in that He liveth, He liveth unto God. Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Romans 6:1-11
Bless you ....><>
When we are fully dead and fully renewed, then we will fully resurrected. John the Baptist expressed it this way:

"He must increase, but I must decrease." John 3:30

While we continue to eat slop as well as the flesh and blood of Jesus, the "old man" of sin may well at times be increasing faster than the "new man" of Christ. One, one hour worship service per week, and five minutes of rushed prayer per day, with 15 minutes of Bible reading when it doesn't interfere with our favorite TV shows or our regular meetings with friends for fun type activities, may starve the "new man" [the one of Christ] to death. With that starving we push out... no, we kill any Life that we may have had!!![/quote]
 
Active
Death is simply a vehicle to transport the believer and the unbeliever into the next life. If we center our focus on death, and fire that consumes meaning annihilation, we will be arguing this forever. We should not view death of a person other than leaving this place of abode to the next one. I believe that if we believe that for the believer, our next life in the New Jerusalem will be eternal, then we must believe that the same wording for the lost in the Lake of Fire is the same, eternal.
 
Active
Death is simply a vehicle to transport the believer and the unbeliever into the next life. If we center our focus on death, and fire that consumes meaning annihilation, we will be arguing this forever. We should not view death of a person other than leaving this place of abode to the next one. I believe that if we believe that for the believer, our next life in the New Jerusalem will be eternal, then we must believe that the same wording for the lost in the Lake of Fire is the same, eternal.
Acts 17:28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

Since the word eternal means no beginning and no end,always was and always will be then there can be no change.
If someone were to be eternally tortured they would have to have always been being tortured and how would they even know that they are being tortured since there would be nothing else to judge torture by.The new Jerusalem is new so it does not really qualify as eternal.
If the end of all things results in God being all in all and God is eternal and does not change then we are already there now.

Living translation:
Ecclesiastes 3:15 What is happening now has happened before, and what will happen in the future has happened before, because God makes the same things happen over and over again.


The only eternal is God and God is a fire,an all consuming flame.
He makes his ministers a flame.of fire.
We are standing right in the middle of the eternal fire right now as temporary flames or flashing lights of his eternal fire.
The fire consumes everything that is not God until God is all in all.
 
Moderator
Staff Member
Greetings @Br. Bear

Something I read today.....may be useful to your post?
The miserable fate of the wicked in hell (Matt. 25:46; Mark 3:29; Hebrews 6:2; 2 Thess. 1:9; Matt. 18:8; 25:41; Jude 1:7).* The Scripture clearly teaches the unending duration of the penal sufferings of the lost and clearly teaches the“everlasting life,” the “eternal life” of the righteous*. The same Greek words in the New Testament (aion, aionios, aidios) are used to express…

the eternal existence of God (1 Tim. 1:17; Rom. 1:20; 16:26)

of Christ (Rev. 1:18)

of the Holy Ghost (Hebrews 9:14)

the eternal duration of the sufferings of the lost (Matt. 25:46; Jude 1:6).
Their condition after casting off the mortal body is spoken of in these expressive words: “Fire that shall not be quenched” (Mark 9:45, 46), “fire unquenchable” (Luke 3:17), “the worm that never dies,” the “bottomless pit” (Rev. 9:1), “the smoke of their torment ascending up for ever and ever” (Rev. 14:10, 11).

The idea that the “second death” (Rev. 20:14) is in the case of the wicked their absolute destruction, their annihilation, has not the slightest support from Scripture, which always represents their future as one of conscious suffering enduring for ever.

The supposition that God will ultimately secure the repentance and restoration of all sinners is equally unscriptural. There is not the slightest trace in all the Scriptures of any such restoration. Sufferings of themselves have no tendency to purify the soul from sin or impart spiritual life. The atoning death of Christ and the sanctifying power of the Holy Spirit are the only means of divine appointment for bringing men torepentance. Now in the case of them that perish these means have been rejected, and “there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins” (Hebrews 10:26-27).

Author: Matthew G.
http://christiananswers.net/dictionary/eternaldeath.html

* Sentence edited due to grammatical error in pasted texr
 
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Active
Your reply Thiscrosshurts, especially this...."If someone were to be eternally tortured they would have to have always been being tortured" makes no biblical sense. You will have to show me Scripture to back up that statement. The words eternal and everlasting do have a reference to past but IMO, not how you understand it. Here is Strong's definition....
αἰών
aiōn
ahee-ohn'
From the same as G104; properly an age; by extension perpetuity (also past); by implication the world; specifically (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future): - age, course, eternal, (for) ever (-more), [n-]ever, (beginning of the, while the) world (began, without end).

The general understanding and usage of the word eternal is always an extended time that doesn't stop.
 
Active
Greetings @Br. Bear

Something I read today.....may be useful to your thread?
The miserable fate of the wicked in hell (Matt. 25:46; Mark 3:29; Hebrews 6:2; 2 Thess. 1:9; Matt. 18:8; 25:41; Jude 1:7). The Scripture as clearly teaches the unending duration of the penal sufferings of the lost as the “everlasting life,” the “eternal life” of the righteous. The same Greek words in the New Testament (aion, aionios, aidios) are used to express…

the eternal existence of God (1 Tim. 1:17; Rom. 1:20; 16:26)

of Christ (Rev. 1:18)

of the Holy Ghost (Hebrews 9:14)

the eternal duration of the sufferings of the lost (Matt. 25:46; Jude 1:6).
Their condition after casting off the mortal body is spoken of in these expressive words: “Fire that shall not be quenched” (Mark 9:45, 46), “fire unquenchable” (Luke 3:17), “the worm that never dies,” the “bottomless pit” (Rev. 9:1), “the smoke of their torment ascending up for ever and ever” (Rev. 14:10, 11).

The idea that the “second death” (Rev. 20:14) is in the case of the wicked their absolute destruction, their annihilation, has not the slightest support from Scripture, which always represents their future as one of conscious suffering enduring for ever.

The supposition that God will ultimately secure the repentance and restoration of all sinners is equally unscriptural. There is not the slightest trace in all the Scriptures of any such restoration. Sufferings of themselves have no tendency to purify the soul from sin or impart spiritual life. The atoning death of Christ and the sanctifying power of the Holy Spirit are the only means of divine appointment for bringing men torepentance. Now in the case of them that perish these means have been rejected, and “there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins” (Hebrews 10:26-27).

Author: Matthew G.


http://christiananswers.net/dictionary/eternaldeath.html
Well hello there Fragrant Grace. Since I've returned to "Talk Jesus" from a short absence, I'm delighted to see a response from you. I wondered where you were. I say that because I have a deep respect for your wisdom in scriptural matters.

A few months ago, I along with about a dozen other theologians discussed at length the longevity of eternal. There were two men who tried to defend annihilation of the lost. We weren't able to change their minds, but what was discussed was very enlightening. Those who believe in annihilation are forced to use words like fire for their argument. Fire consumes to where nothing is left and that was their argument.

Thank you for the teaching of Matthew G. That was very good and biblical.

Hey, take care, and may our Lord and Savior bless you with Grace, Peace and the Joy of the Lord.
 
Active
Your reply Thiscrosshurts, especially this...."If someone were to be eternally tortured they would have to have always been being tortured" makes no biblical sense. You will have to show me Scripture to back up that statement. The words eternal and everlasting do have a reference to past but IMO, not how you understand it. Here is Strong's definition....
αἰών
aiōn
ahee-ohn'
From the same as G104; properly an age; by extension perpetuity (also past); by implication the world; specifically (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future): - age, course, eternal, (for) ever (-more), [n-]ever, (beginning of the, while the) world (began, without end)..
I am pointing out that eternal torture makes no sense,biblical or otherwise
The word eternal is not in the Hebrew language at all.

e·ter·nal
əˈtərn(ə)l/
adjective

  1. lasting or existing forever; without end or beginning.
    "the secret of eternal youth"
    synonyms: everlasting, never-ending, endless, perpetual, undying, immortal, abiding,permanent, enduring, infinite, boundless, timeless;
    amaranthine
    "eternal happiness"
Only God had no beginning and no end.
That's why he changes not.
Everything else has a beginning and an end.
Anything that has a beginning is not eternal.
God has no beginning and no end.
So any thing that has a beginning can't be eternal and must be age long.
It is often used as "from now on",but that would be an incorrect usage.
Eternal torture does not make sense because it would have always been.

It would be nice if we actually used the correct terms like "age long" but not many know the difference.
If you mean from now on then say from now on.


The general understanding and usage of the word eternal is always an extended time that doesn't stop.
Unfortunately the general usage of the word is incorrect and causes much confusion.
That is in fact what I have been pointing out in my posts.
Eternal is timeless and "from now on" requires time.
The word eternal was invented in about 1400 AD to describe the timeless.

The eternal can sort of bleed into time.
We do have slivers or shadows of eternity in time.
Certain words qualify as eternal and time bound descriptions.
The term "I am" works in time and out of time.
"I am" and "is" can be used in time or out of time.
The word "now" can also be used for time and the timeless.
We use "now" for a moment of time but since "now" has no beginning and no end it can also mean eternal.

I'm glad you decided to do some research on the matter.
How would you interpret this scripture?
John 5:25 "Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

This is actually a more accurate version. from the Aramaic Bible in Plain English
John 5:25 Timeless truth I speak to you: The hour is coming, it is even now, when the dead shall hear the voice of The Son of God, and they who hear shall live.

How can something be coming and now is at the same time?
 
Active
A thorough study of the original words that are to often translated eternity is really needed to avoid error.

There are time bound truths and there is timeless truth.
Jesus is "The truth" and is above his own creation including time and space.

King James Bible:
Ephesians 3:11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

Berean Literal Bible
Ephesians 3:11 according to the purpose of the ages, which He accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord,

After study I have to conclude that the Berean translation is more accurate.

Another example
KJV
Ecclesiastes 3:11 He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.
I like this translation because I like the "his time" idea.His time is different than mine because he is above time,so I try to understand how he sees.
New International Version
Ecclesiastes 3:11 He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the human heart; yet no one can fathom what God has done from beginning to end.
Most translations have "eternal" instead of world but the Hebrew word is olam which is closer to an age or a long duration.

NET Bible
Ecclesiastes 3:11 God has made everything fit beautifully in its appropriate time, but he has also placed ignorance in the human heart so that people cannot discover what God has ordained, from the beginning to the end of their lives.
This translation uses ignorance which is not altogether wrong because olam is an unknown duration.
We really need to be more vigilant in the way we input and output words.
How long is a "short" piece of rope? I think it's 6",what do you think?
Should I call you wrong if you think it's 4"?

How can we even begin to agree on anything unless we can agree how to use certain words?
How can I understand scripture if the words have changed and morphed meaning.

King James Bible
Jude 1:25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

Jude 1:25 All glory to him who alone is God, our Savior through Jesus Christ our Lord. All glory, majesty, power, and authority are his before all time, and in the present, and beyond all time! Amen.
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Before his glory in joy ( He alone is God our Savior by Yeshua The Messiah our Lord ); to him is the praise, dominion, honor and majesty, even now and unto all ages. Amen.

Before the internet I had to go to the library between a job and raising kids.
I was pretty much stuck believing whatever pastor told me because I did not have the time or resources to research myself.
I no longer have that for an excuse.
We must root out error or we will be speaking idle words that have no meaning or value and it will sound like babbling to others.

The word eternal was invented in about 1400 AD to describe something that has no beginning and no end,always was and always will be.
Even dictionaries disagree on this sometimes.

I use Websters 1828 and I think we all should so that our words have the same meaning.

Websters 1828:
ETER'NAL, adjective [Latin oeternus, composed of oevum and ternus, oeviternus, Varro. The origin of the last component part of the word is not obvious. It occurs in diuturnus, and seems to denote continuance.]

1. Without beginning or end of existence.

The eternal God is thy refuge. Deuteronomy 33:27.

2. Without beginning of existence.

To know whether there is any real being, whose duration has been eternal

3. Without end of existence or duration; everlasting; endless; immortal.

That they may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 2 Timothy 2:10.

What shall I do, that I may have eternal life? Matthew 19:16.

Suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. Jude 1:7.

4. Perpetual; ceaseless; continued without intermission.

And fires eternal in thy temple shine.

5. Unchangeable; existing at all times without change; as eternal truth.

ETER'NAL, noun An appellation of God.
 
Loyal
Death is simply a vehicle to transport the believer and the unbeliever into the next life. If we center our focus on death, and fire that consumes meaning annihilation, we will be arguing this forever. We should not view death of a person other than leaving this place of abode to the next one. I believe that if we believe that for the believer, our next life in the New Jerusalem will be eternal, then we must believe that the same wording for the lost in the Lake of Fire is the same, eternal.
I understood your meaning, but what you are saying doesn't line up with what I have seen in scripture. People have of course drawn conclusions which were based on scripture and then argued with others whose different conclusions were also based on scripture. I may listen to others, but who is responsible for what I decide to do, but me?

The fire that consumes is God, Himself, described in scripture as a "consuming fire". Yet, what does the fire of God consume? What was it that killed the soldiers who cast the three Hebrews into the furnace but only burned the binding ropes of the Hebrews? Why was the obvious [to me obvious] distinction made?

In the OT, according to the law, were the unacceptable parts burned continuously without being consumed or were they burned until there were only ashes left? Is this not a type or shadow of what we're discussing?

The bush that Moses saw was burning, but was not consumed, but was that done as a type of what happens to unrepentant sinners?

Then you say in effect that because the [good] reward is eternal (at least unending considering what Thiscrosshurts said), the punishment must also be eternal (in the sense of unending). If final death is the end of a person's existence, is not that lack of existence unending? That is, he will never exist again.
 
Moderator
Staff Member
Greetings @Thiscrosshurts ,

We really need to be more vigilant in the way we input and output words.
How long is a "short" piece of rope? I think it's 6",what do you think?
Should I call you wrong if you think it's 4"?
A short rope would be 4-6' long but a short piece of rope could be 4-6", depending on what sort of rope it is/was. A three corded rope would probably not exist as rope at 4" as it would fall apart and have no substance. It would also depend on how thick the rope was. So unless you can give all the variables it is difficult to properly define.
Also, a piece of rope might be 1/2" shorter than another and therefore would be the short piece, regardless of how long it is. Of course , it may be 40' shorter and still be 50' long. But the only rope which is actually called a cord, that is eternal, is that which holds and binds us to His Love.

Bless you ....><>
 
Active
My response is, I don't agree, thanks for your thinking on this matter. We can disagree, and still remain friends.
 
Active
It is my opinion that the annihilation of the wicked has never, in the history of the church age, been an accepted doctrine by our forefathers and reformers. It seems to me as wishful thinking on the part of folk who have loved ones who were not Christians, and can't reckon with the fact that they will be punished for all eternity.

For some, they have never done study in what exactly the Lake of Fire is, and what it means that the unbelievers will be judged according to their works. I think we forget the great anguish that our Heavenly Father went thru because of the rebellion of His cherished Israel. Then His precious Son and part of the mighty godhead, suffered in the way Jesus had to endure at the hands of people who full deserve that Lake and punishment.

At one time, a man listed all the verses, Old & New Testament that had reference to what happens to the lost after their death in hell and Lake of fire. Verses like the worm dies not, the story of the rich man and Lazarus, etc. etc.

When I think of Satan, the leader and author of rebellion against God, he is the pattern of all who will follow his ways in this life and in the next in the Lake of Fire. I doubt that Satan and his demon follower's will be annihilated after a time in the LoF, neither will all those who followed them.

When we consider the great lengths that our Heavenly Father went thru to bring Israel back to Him, just to see them rebel over and over, and when I think of all the ways that our God has put out the power of the Gospel, all over the world for Centuries, NO ONE can say that they didn't hear God's call to Salvation.

When all has been said and done, there is a simple truth about all unbelievers, They hate God and His Commands, period. What they get, they deserve.

I will close with this portion of Scripture that says what I've been trying to say....

Luke 16:20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
16:21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
16:27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
16:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.


Remember....
Revelation 20:12 "And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works."


It is my opinion that Hitler will receive more punishment than my own Brother who is hardhearted toward the Gospel. He's a great guy and I don't want him tormented for ever, but God's ways are His ways, and who am I to alter what He sees as necessary. I simply won't invent a theology that pleases my flesh, I don't understand God's ways and thoughts.

 
Loyal
It is my opinion that the annihilation of the wicked has never, in the history of the church age, been an accepted doctrine by our forefathers and reformers.
I agree that this has generally been the case in history as I understand it, but only generally. I have met too many people (admittedly always a minority if that makes a difference) besides myself who leaned toward annihilation. I only lean, but as all of us here, I live by faith rather than by knowledge. The knowledge belongs to God. He will give us what He will when He will for His reasons.

It seems to me as wishful thinking on the part of folk who have loved ones who were not Christians, and can't reckon with the fact that they will be punished for all eternity.
Wishful thinking has never been part of where I am in God. Sometimes, I know from searching my own past that I was way off the proper course, but with God's help I moved into a truer direction. Once again we need to remember that God gives the increase and that man's ways have regularly led the majority of those supposedly within His people in the wrong direction. I speak no more on this for the moment.

For some, they have never done study in what exactly the Lake of Fire is, and what it means that the unbelievers will be judged according to their works. I think we forget the great anguish that our Heavenly Father went thru because of the rebellion of His cherished Israel. Then His precious Son and part of the mighty godhead, suffered in the way Jesus had to endure at the hands of people who full deserve that Lake and punishment.
If study alone were the answer, I probably would be much closer than I am. I studied the scriptures long and hard many years only to be shown a nearly fatal error in myself. I left off reading the Bible and praying for about 10 years I did return to my vomit in that time period. God had mercy and allowed me to repent and return to Him. That return was in approximately 2002. Since then I've been making slow but steady progress upward with the Lord's help on a talus slope toward Him. Even yet, He continues to show me dark places in myself that need to be filled with His Light. Still, "Jesus wept" for Lazarus and for you and for me and for all of us who have failed to keep our eyes on the goal that God placed before us.

At one time, a man listed all the verses, Old & New Testament that had reference to what happens to the lost after their death in hell and Lake of fire. Verses like the worm dies not, the story of the rich man and Lazarus, etc. etc.
I have read such lists and studied them. I have made such lists and studied them. I have probably most all of them in this computer where I am now typing. From time to time I go back to read them over again. As I read the scriptures each day I strive to keep talking to God along the way. I have answers from both sides to all of your questions and the questions I have heard from others... but I know that it is not in any man alone to direct his own steps. Who that I meet is always led by the Spirit of God? Many, but who them never quenches the Holy Spirit? So then comes from them and from me also... a mixed message rather than the unadulterated Word of God that always came out of the mouth of Jesus.

The Scribes and Pharisees were certain that they were right. They had and understood the oracles of God, or at least they thought they did.

When I think of Satan, the leader and author of rebellion against God, he is the pattern of all who will follow his ways in this life and in the next in the Lake of Fire. I doubt that Satan and his demon follower's will be annihilated after a time in the LoF, neither will all those who followed them.

When we consider the great lengths that our Heavenly Father went thru to bring Israel back to Him, just to see them rebel over and over, and when I think of all the ways that our God has put out the power of the Gospel, all over the world for Centuries, NO ONE can say that they didn't hear God's call to Salvation.

When all has been said and done, there is a simple truth about all unbelievers, They hate God and His Commands, period. What they get, they deserve.
I have no doubt that everyone, unbeliever or believer, will get what he deserves. Who but God is always qualified to decide what that is in each case?

I will close with this portion of Scripture that says what I've been trying to say....
Luke 16:20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
16:21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
16:27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
16:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.


I am sure you have heard as well that some say the above story is the literal truth while others would call it a parable. I won't say what I believe. It appears that most people who heard Jesus speak in the flesh about 2000 years ago in the end of the matter were not persuaded even when he did rise from the dead. Decisions like this [eternal torment or no] rarely matter to us in our walk with God. What matters for certain is "charity" or "love" in a person's heart. I see this in you and for this again I give God the glory.

Remember....
Revelation 20:12 "And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works."


Again I could provide details giving either the pros or the cons of your opinion regarding those verses, but I won't, not now. I cannot convince anyone. Only God gives the increase although He does use people for His purposes and we are people.

It is my opinion that Hitler will receive more punishment than my own Brother who is hardhearted toward the Gospel. He's a great guy and I don't want him tormented for ever, but God's ways are His ways, and who am I to alter what He sees as necessary. I simply won't invent a theology that pleases my flesh, I don't understand God's ways and thoughts.
Neither will I invent a theology that pleases my flesh. My flesh is constantly rebelling against the dominion of the Spirit of God in me. Sometimes I lose a battle, but God never loses.
 
Active
I agree that this has generally been the case in history as I understand it, but only generally. I have met too many people (admittedly always a minority if that makes a difference) besides myself who leaned toward annihilation. I only lean, but as all of us here, I live by faith rather than by knowledge. The knowledge belongs to God. He will give us what He will when He will for His reasons.



Wishful thinking has never been part of where I am in God. Sometimes, I know from searching my own past that I was way off the proper course, but with God's help I moved into a truer direction. Once again we need to remember that God gives the increase and that man's ways have regularly led the majority of those supposedly within His people in the wrong direction. I speak no more on this for the moment.



If study alone were the answer, I probably would be much closer than I am. I studied the scriptures long and hard many years only to be shown a nearly fatal error in myself. I left off reading the Bible and praying for about 10 years I did return to my vomit in that time period. God had mercy and allowed me to repent and return to Him. That return was in approximately 2002. Since then I've been making slow but steady progress upward with the Lord's help on a talus slope toward Him. Even yet, He continues to show me dark places in myself that need to be filled with His Light. Still, "Jesus wept" for Lazarus and for you and for me and for all of us who have failed to keep our eyes on the goal that God placed before us.



I have read such lists and studied them. I have made such lists and studied them. I have probably most all of them in this computer where I am now typing. From time to time I go back to read them over again. As I read the scriptures each day I strive to keep talking to God along the way. I have answers from both sides to all of your questions and the questions I have heard from others... but I know that it is not in any man alone to direct his own steps. Who that I meet is always led by the Spirit of God? Many, but who them never quenches the Holy Spirit? So then comes from them and from me also... a mixed message rather than the unadulterated Word of God that always came out of the mouth of Jesus.

The Scribes and Pharisees were certain that they were right. They had and understood the oracles of God, or at least they thought they did.



I have no doubt that everyone, unbeliever or believer, will get what he deserves. Who but God is always qualified to decide what that is in each case?



I am sure you have heard as well that some say the above story is the literal truth while others would call it a parable. I won't say what I believe. It appears that most people who heard Jesus speak in the flesh about 2000 years ago in the end of the matter were not persuaded even when he did rise from the dead. Decisions like this [eternal torment or no] rarely matter to us in our walk with God. What matters for certain is "charity" or "love" in a person's heart. I see this in you and for this again I give God the glory.



Again I could provide details giving either the pros or the cons of your opinion regarding those verses, but I won't, not now. I cannot convince anyone. Only God gives the increase although He does use people for His purposes and we are people.



Neither will I invent a theology that pleases my flesh. My flesh is constantly rebelling against the dominion of the Spirit of God in me. Sometimes I lose a battle, but God never loses.
Thank you so very much for your reply. It's no wonder that you are such a beloved Brother of mine sent by the Holy Spirit. I'm humbled by your words and accept them with peace and love in my heart. Bless you my Brother, and as you say, give God the Glory.
 
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