Errant salvation methods

[lioncub]

Today we see a proliferation of errant methods being used in churches for salvation, leaving many without salvation at all ! Many churches have invented their own vernacular which is not the vernacular found in the bible. This change in language suggests a change in ideas ! Consequently, leaving many with only part of the picture, but not the complete picture.


The sinner's prayer


1. Not found in scripture
2. A man-made concoction


"Accept Jesus into your heart"


1. Concept not found in scripture
2. Another man-made concoction
3. John 6:44 "No one can come to Me if ever the Father Who sends Me should not be drawing him."


Romans 10:9


1. The book of Romans was written to the saved. This is not the place to grab a formula for the unsaved from. Not only is this bad practice, but the potential for confusion is enormous. Indeed the unsaved can be deceived into thinking that they are saved by fulfilling the requirements of Romans 10:9, yet still not be baptized in water and / or have received the Holy Spirit !


2. Romans 10:9 cannot offer salvation to the unsaved, as Jesus said in Mark 16:16 “He that believes and is baptised shall be saved...”. Clearly, it is not enough to believe, but one must also be baptised !


3. Strangely, no mention of this formula is prescribed in the book of Acts when the church started.


4. In Acts 8, the Samaritans believed the gospel. Why were they not saved when they believed ? Surely, this would have included believing that Jesus rose from the dead. Yet Phillip saw it necessary to baptize them in water and John and Peter came down so that they could receive the Holy Spirit !! How did anyone know that they hadn't received the Holy Spirit ?


5. In Acts 2:38, Peter told the Jews to repent, get baptised in water and receive the Holy Spirit. Peter didn’t tell them to confess that Jesus is Lord and believe in their heart that Jesus is raised from the dead. Then Peter said in verse 40, “save yourselves” ! How ? By repenting, being baptised in water and receiving the Holy Spirit (verse 38).


6. Myself and thousands of others were never instructed to follow the prescriptive method of Romans 10:9 and yet we received the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues




"All you have to do is believe"


1. Apparently started by Martin Luther, who later changed his mind. By that stage it was too late, as the seed of error was already sown.


2. "Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed ? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost." (Acts 19:2)


An example of believing but not receiving the Holy Spirit. Sadly, many remain 'believers' but never receive the Holy Spirit, having been deceived into thinking that they automatically have the Holy Spirit upon belief !! A big deception. Still not convinced ? How did anyone know that the Samaritans in Acts 8 had not received the Holy Spirit ?


3. Jesus never used the word "believe" in Luke 11: 5 - 13 when encouraging others to seek for the Holy Spirit.


4. Jesus told Nicodemus to be ‘born again’ in John 3: 3 and ‘believe’ in verse 16. Tragically, many jump straight to verse 16 and stay there and never get born again !! You have to do BOTH.


5. Of course one has to believe the gospel otherwise one would never come to Christ. But 'believing' is not an end in itself. One can believe as much as they like, but without getting born again there is no inheritance in the kingdom of God !! It's like someone claiming that they believe everything that someone says, yet ignores what they say.


6. Probably the most deceptive error of all the errors and is leading many into the lake of fire ! The ‘faith alone’ doctrine highlights the danger of considering only one aspect of salvation to the exclusion of all other aspects ! Faith is only part of the picture, not the whole picture.


Baptism in the Holy Spirit as a separate event


Acts 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
Acts 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
Acts 11:17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

Peter states in verse 17 that what happened to Cornelius and the others was the same gift that they received. <style type="text/css"></style>Then in verse 16, Peter recalls what Jesus had said to them prior to Pentecost, that they would be "baptised in the Holy Spirit". If Peter concludes that Cornelius, who had never received the Holy Spirit before, had received the same as them, how can one conclude that baptism in the Holy Spirit is a separate event ?

Peter equates “baptism in the Holy Spirit” with receiving the Holy Spirit. In other words, Cornelius had never received the Holy Spirit before and yet was baptised in the Holy Spirit like Peter and the others were on Pentecost !! Therefore, one can only conclude that the terms, "baptism in the Holy Spirit", "the gift of the Holy Spirit", "receiving the Holy Spirit" (Acts 10:47) are all synonymous terms that describe the same event !! Baptism in the Holy Spirit is not a separate experience at all, as the above scriptureproves. If you haven't been baptised in the Holy Spirit, you haven't received the Holy Spirit at all !

Telling others that they have the Holy Spirit, when they don't, is akin to murder !

 

[jari]

Hi lioncub.

1. The book of Romans was written to the saved. This is not the place to grab a formula for the unsaved from. Not only is this bad practice, but the potential for confusion is enormous. Indeed the unsaved can be deceived into thinking that they are saved by fulfilling the requirements of Romans 10:9, yet still not be baptized in water and / or have received the Holy Spirit !

[/COLOR]

You probably make interesting points and you certainly have some perspective to this but I just wanted to comment this part and say that romans certainly is for everyone to read both saved and unsaved and I believe that's how Paul meant it.
Why else Paul had included evengelizing message in romans?

As romans clearly tells us all have sinned and receive forgiveness from Jesus? Why cant we say this important part of the message?

Maybe it missing some details like babtism and being filled with Holy spirit. But its the faith that its all about and faith comes from hearing God's word therefore its viable message romans have. If you believe in your heart Jesus rose from the dead you will be saved!

And then only then when you believe this message romans have comes babtism and holy spirit filledness, it cant happen without any faith can it?

 

[will]

lioncub,

Agree with you on:

- Sinner's prayer (no such thing because a sinner cannot pray before receiving salvation)
- Baptism by the Holy Spirit is at the point of salvation

Disagree on:

- Accept Lord Jesus into your heart. This is a popular phrase signifying the point of believing and accepting. John 3:16 and Revelation 3:20 both indicates this.

- Romans 10:9 is the way to be saved. How else can that verse be read?

- All you have to do is believe. This is true because believing *is* the only thing we can do that we cannot boast upon. If you add water baptism as one of the requirements for salvation, you are adding human physical act into a supernatural one. This is incorrect also. Remember that baptism in the Scriptures also is used to refer to baptism by the Holy Spirit (and fire), which is really what matters.

 

[lioncub]

lioncub,
Disagree on:

- Accept Lord Jesus into your heart. This is a popular phrase signifying the point of believing and accepting. John 3:16 and Revelation 3:20 both indicates this.

- Romans 10:9 is the way to be saved. How else can that verse be read?

- All you have to do is believe. This is true because believing *is* the only thing we can do that we cannot boast upon. If you add water baptism as one of the requirements for salvation, you are adding human physical act into a supernatural one. This is incorrect also. Remember that baptism in the Scriptures also is used to refer to baptism by the Holy Spirit (and fire), which is really what matters.

If you call Him Lord, why can't you accept Mark 16:16 ? Don't call Him Lord and ignore what He tells you to do !

will, get baptised in water and receive the Holy Spirit with speaking in tongues and continue doing good, and you will be ready for His return !

 

[will]

If you call Him Lord, why can't you accept Mark 16:16 ? Don't call Him Lord and ignore what He tells you to do !

will, get baptised in water and receive the Holy Spirit with speaking in tongues and continue doing good, and you will be ready for His return !

Brother,

Do you really believe that a physical act such as water baptism is a condition for our salvation? Does that concur with other Scriptures (John 3:16, Ephesian 2:8-9, Romans 3:28) ??

Please, think deeply before repeating what you may have heard from others.

Water baptism is a symbol. It is not what what saved you and I. Lord Jesus because of His noble love (agape) went on the cross to become our substitution, that's what saved us.

We could have done *nothing* physically or otherwise to contribute to this execution of the grand plan of salvation. Only Him alone gets all the credit and glory.

Let's go back to Mark 16:16.
First, what did the Lord say that will condemn us? It is unbelief, not the lack of water-baptism. Secondly, I am convinced that the Lord was referring to us dying with him and be born again in the Holy Spirit (the true meaning of being baptized) as opposed to the mechanics of water-baptism specifically.

And lastly part of submitting to His Lordship is to continually study His Words (The Scriptures) in its entirety in submission to its authority, I'd be careful not using one verse to make a point that (we think) supports our view.

 

[ChristianAspie]

There is a great deal of confusion about this issue (New Birth Experience) but it can easily be cleared up. I would like to examine the portion of scripture in which Jesus himself addresses this issue.

I highlighted points of particular interest in reference to “New Birth” experience.

John 3:1-8
There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Nicodemus, like you and I, came to Jesus with his understanding a little off (not quite right). Let’s look at what Jesus actually said, “Except a man be born again he cannot see, understand, or comprehend the things of the kingdom.”

Then Jesus further defines this born again experience. It consists of two elements: water and Spirit. He goes on to say that without the born again experience you and I cannot enter the kingdom of God.

So, let's look at this in action.

Again, I highlighted the particular points of interest.

Acts 19
And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John’s baptism.
Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
And all the men were about twelve.

These were earnest followers of God. They were doing all they understood to do. When presented with further direction they received it.

So, let’s consider this:

• Paul asks how were you baptized? He re-baptized them in the name of Jesus. WATER
• Paul laid hands on them and the Holy Ghost came on them. SPIRIT
• Didn’t jesus say a sound would accompany all this? They spake with tongues.

You will find this pattern in Acts chapter two and ten as well. It happens like that around the world in every nation where people cry out to God.

 

[Chad]

If you call Him Lord, why can't you accept Mark 16:16 ? Don't call Him Lord and ignore what He tells you to do !

will, get baptised in water and receive the Holy Spirit with speaking in tongues and continue doing good, and you will be ready for His return !

Water baptism is not a per-requisite for salvation. Did the thief nailed on the cross next to Jesus do water baptism when he asked Jesus to save him? No. Jesus told him he would be with Him in paradise.

Luke 23:39-43

 

[ChristianAspie]

Not getting into this much - I got too many nasty PMs from a member for posting a respectful, intelligent, knowledgeable and accurate post. Basically told that because I am a woman I should just shut my mouth and not contribute to the discussion and that God will rebuke me for "talking over men."

Not sure I really like this site too much. I was looking for real Christians, not bullies.

However, I will note here, regarding the thief on the cross (because even though I am a woman I will not keep my mouth shut - this board is supposed to be for everyone, not just men - or so I thought).

The thief on the cross was under Mosaic Law. Once Jesus rose again, the rules changed.

 

[Chad]

Not getting into this much - I got too many nasty PMs from a member for posting a respectful, intelligent, knowledgeable and accurate post. Basically told that because I am a woman I should just shut my mouth and not contribute to the discussion and that God will rebuke me for "talking over men."

Not sure I really like this site too much. I was looking for real Christians, not bullies.

However, I will note here, regarding the thief on the cross (because even though I am a woman I will not keep my mouth shut - this board is supposed to be for everyone, not just men - or so I thought).

The thief on the cross was under Mosaic Law. Once Jesus rose again, the rules changed.

Ok, let me get this straight. You registered just recently and one person sends you a "nasty" pm (which all you had to do was report this to me or a moderator by sending me a pm or clicking the red report icon on top right of message), and suddenly you classify the entire community of almost 17,000 members as "bullies"?

Seriously? Ok, thank you for being part of the site for that short period of time. Hope you find "real Christians" elsewhere.

 

[ChristianAspie]

They were reported - twice. I clicked the report button and explained what the problem was.

I got no response, nothing.

I joined the board and began posting, trying to contribute to the community. Then I get attacked by this arrogant boor for no reason at all and was even threatened by this "challenged" individual with a "curse" which is laughable.

No help. Maybe it is because I am new that I don't get any assistance in this. Maybe I have to prove myself on these boards. I really don't know. I just wanted to be a part of a community and so far all I have come across are nasty people (you included - very defensive).

Would have been nice to have gotten some help when the nasty person attacked me.

So if all I have seen on this site are nasty responses to me, what am I supposed to think? What am I supposed to think when someone, out of the blue, attacks me over a post that was biblical and relevant because I am a woman and I am supposed to not contribute to the discussions?

I have Asperger's Syndrome. We are very logical. We are also very hesitant to interact with humans because people can be extremely cruel. I researched several sites before joining this one because I thought I would have a better chance at being accepted here.

Looks like I was wrong. Instead of trying to help me, I just get attacked all over again.

Guess that is why I have only seen a couple of posts from people with AS and those are really old.

 

[james g]

THE MEANING OF BAPTISM
In order to understand the Scriptural teaching regarding baptism, you must know what the word means. The Greek words translated "baptize" and "baptism" are "baptizo," "baptisma," and "baptismos." Even if you are not a linguist, you can see from the above that the word "baptize" is not really a TRANSLATION of "baptizo" at all. The translators simply replaced the "o" with an "e." This is called a TRANSLITERATION not a translation, because in true translation work the meaning of the word is carried over from one language into another. In the case of the word "baptize" or "baptism" this was not done.


The result of this is that every time someone reads or hears about baptism, he automatically thinks it must mean WATER baptism. So, when such a person reads in
Acts 2:38, for instance, "Repent and be baptized . . . for the remission of sins," he erroneously concludes that one must be dipped in water to be saved . . . because the verse does say you have to be baptized to receive God's forgiveness. Much harm and confusion has resulted from not understanding the real meaning of baptism. It means "to whelm (engulf or cover) and to cleanse." When Scripture refers to WATER baptism the context ALWAYS makes this clear. When water is not mentioned in connection with baptism, we need to use utmost care in our study of the passage so that we will recognize what kind of "baptism" (cleansing or whelming) is being spoken of.

Mark 16:16

says, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." Obviously, therefore, there is a baptism that is necessary for salvation. We cannot assume, however, that this refers to WATER baptism. Scripture clearly tells us what kind of baptism it is that is necessary for salvation.

John the Baptist, differentiating between his baptism and Christ's baptism, said, "I indeed have baptized you with WATER: but He (Christ) shall baptize you with the HOLY GHOST" Mark 1:8.After Christ's death, burial, and resurrection, Paul came upon some of John's disciples who were not saved, even though they had been baptized by John in water. They had not as yet received the baptism (cleansing) of the Holy Spirit. When they did, they were saved Acts 19:1 - 7; compare with Romans 8:9.It is the SPIRIT'S baptism that is essential for salvation . . . not WATER baptism.

The Lord Jesus Christ never baptized anyone with water the whole time He was on earth. If water baptism were necessary for salvation, then Christ would have been withholding salvation from everyone He dealt with.




Ephesians 4:5

says that there is "one baptism" which God recognizes today. And I Corinthians 12:13 describes it clearly: "For by one SPIRIT are we all (no believers excluded) baptized into one body . . . and have been all made to drink into one SPIRIT." Notice that the "one Spirit" and "one baptism" of Ephesians 4:4, 5 parallel perfectly with the "one Spirit" and "one body" of I Corinthians 12:13. THIS is the baptism (or cleansing) necessary for salvation. This baptism is performed by God, not by man.


For you to be a child of God you must have the Holy Spirit for God says, ". . . Now if any man have NOT the Spirit of Christ, HE IS NONE OF HIS"

Romans 8:9.John 1:12,13 tells us we become children of God, born of Him, WHEN we receive Christ by faith. And WHEN we receive Christ, we also receive the Spirit.

"And in Him you Gentiles also, after listening to the message of the truth, the good news of your salvation - having believed in Him - were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit . . ." Eph. 1:13, Weymouth trans., 3rd ed.).

Jesus said in John 7:39,"But this spake He of the Spirit, which they that believe on Him should receive...." The Holy Spirit is given to believers at the moment of salvation, and He indwells them forever.



"What? Know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost, which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?"

I Cor. 6:19 The letter of I Corinthians was written to ALL believers (1:2), so then, ALL BELIEVERS are indwelt by the Spirit and have received His baptism or cleansing.

PASSAGES SOME PEOPLE THINK TEACH WATER BAPTISM FOR SALVATION.

Acts 2:38,"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the Name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." You will discover what this verse means if you keep these important things clear in your mind:

(1) To be "baptized" means to be "cleansed."

(2) These unbelieving Jews were pricked in their hearts when Peter reminded them that they had a part in crucifying Jesus. And Peter tells them to be CLEANSED of this sin "IN the NAME of Jesus Christ" - the very One they helped crucify.

(3) Peter said to be "baptized in the Name of Jesus Christ." Some assume that Peter meant for these people to be baptized in water, and as they were being baptized, Peter would say over them, "I baptize you in the Name of Jesus Christ." However, this is not what God has recorded. It is what men have added. GOD says these people were cleansed in CHRIST'S NAME. Remember, His Name means "God who saves, keeps, satisfies," etc. There is cleansing power in His Name!

(4) Notice, when these people were cleansed in Christ, they received the gift of the Holy Spirit. Therefore, this is another verse showing that the baptism or cleansing that accompanies salvation is of the Spirit - not of water.

(5) Notice, it says the GIFT of the Holy Spirit. If you needed water baptism for salvation or to receive the Holy Spirit, neither salvation nor the Holy Spirit would be a GIFT of God, but of the works of man.

(6) When "baptism" refers to water, it means to be made fully wet; when it refers to salvation, it means to be fully or completely cleansed by the Spirit. Acts 2:41 records that 3,000 trusted Christ as the result of Peter's message. If the baptism here were referring to WATER baptism, where could Peter baptize 3,000 people? He and all the people were in the Temple area, and there was NO WATER THERE except for a small laver in which the priests washed their hands and feet before entering into the Holy Place. But verse 41 says that these 3,000 souls were added to the disciples that "same day." In the entire passage water is not mentioned even once.

Literally translated, Acts 2:38 could read, "Then Peter said unto them, Change your mind, and be CLEANSED every one of you in the Name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

Mark 16:16, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." Please notice four things about this verse:

(1) Only unbelief condemns. Being water baptized or not being water baptized has nothing to do with it.

(2) The baptism here is Spirit baptism, not water baptism.

(3) He that believeth and is cleansed shall be saved. We do the believing, and God does the cleansing. "And such were some of you: but ye are washed; but ye are sanctified; but ye are justified in the Name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God" I Cor. 6:11.

(4) The passage in Mark 16, "from verse 9 to the end (of the chapter) is not found in the two most ancient manuscripts, the Sinaitic and Vatican, and others have it with partial omissions and variations. But it is quoted by Irenaeus and Hippolytus in the second or third century" (Scofield's note 1)

John 3:5, "Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

Some people think this verse is referring to water baptism because it says you must be "born of water." But let me ask you a question. Are BIRTH and BAPTISM the same thing? Of course not! If Christ wanted to say, "You must be baptized of water," He would have said so. But He said, "born of water," and Jesus knew the difference between the two.

Consider the context. The first time Jesus told Nicodemus of the new birth, He said, "Except a man be BORN again, he cannot see the kingdom of God" (verse 3). Nicodemus thought Christ's statement was referring to another physical birth. In fact, he asked, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?" (verse 4)

We KNOW that the BIRTH OF WATER in John 3:5 cannot mean water baptism. There are at least three things this could mean within the context and without contradicting other parts of the Word of God:

(1) Some Bible scholars believe that being "born of water" refers to physical birth. Notice Christ's reply to Nicodemus that a man has to be BORN (the subject throughout is BIRTH, not baptism) of water and the Spirit. Christ was saying, "Nicodemus, you must be born of water (physical birth) and the Spirit (new birth)." Why is it said that being "born of water" refers to physical birth? Because of Christ's clear explanation in the very next verse, "That which is born of the FLESH is flesh; and that which is born of the SPIRIT is Spirit" ( v.6). Jesus then said, "Marvel not ( don't be surprised ) that I said unto thee, "Ye must be BORN again."

(2) Other Bible scholars believe that being "born of water" refers to the Holy Spirit. Throughout the Gospel of John water is used as an illustration to point to Christ as the giver of "living water," as in John 4:6 - 14. Christ asked the woman at Jacob's well for a drink of water and also told the woman that He could give her water as well.... But the water He gives is not "H2O".... The water that He gives is a "well of water springing up into everlasting life" (v. 14). In John 7:39 Christ gave this explanation of "living water": "But this spake He of the Spirit which they that believe on Him should receive....

"The Greek word for "and" in John 3:5 is "kai." Quoting from Strong's Concordance, #2532, we find that this word is a "primitive participle, having a copulative ( joining together) and sometimes also a cumulative force." Besides being translated "and" it is also translated "indeed, likewise, moreover," etc.

To paraphrase John 3:5, then, it could read, ". . . except a man be born of water (the living water Christ gives), indeed, by the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

(3) Still other Bible scholars believe the birth of water in John 3:5 is speaking of the "washing of the Word" as is mentioned in Ephesians 5:26 and Titus 3:5.

The important thing for us to know is that salvation is always and only by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, and this passage in John 3:5 in no way suggests water baptism for salvation.

For someone to conclude that John 3:5 is referring to WATER BAPTISM, he would have to ignore completely the entire context of the third chapter.

I Peter 3:21, "The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ."

This verse isn't even speaking of salvation of a person's soul, but of being saved or delivered from a guilty conscience of not obeying God. (In this case, obeying God by being water baptized AFTER salvation!)

However, those who believe water baptism is essential for salvation often use this verse, so we will go into some detail on its explanation. (But in all the times this verse has been used, I have never yet had a single person quote more than the first part of the verse - "The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us....")

It is as if Satan has put blinders on these people, for they fail to see that the verse goes on to state clearly that this salvation is not a salvation which in any way puts "away the sins of the flesh." Notice how emphatic the Lord is: "NOT the putting away of the filth of the flesh...." Yet time and time again when I have pointed this out to those who think this verse teaches baptismal regeneration, they act as if they had never seen the last part of the verse before. But the Lord put it there to keep us from being confused.

But someone will say, "The verse does say 'baptism doth also now save us.' " Yes, it does, and the Word of God tells us what it saves us from.

The verse itself, with the context, answers the question, "what does baptism save us from?" Verse 20 says that "eight souls (Noah and his family) were saved by water." The word "by" literally should read "through" the water. You can check this yourself in any number of other good translations - American Standard Version, Williams, Weymouth, New English Bible, etc.

It is certainly clear when you read of the flood in Genesis, chapter seven, that people were not saved BY the water. They were condemned and killed BY the water. But the eight believers who were in the ARK (a type of being in CHRIST) were saved THROUGH the water, by the ark. Literally, verse 20 reads "eight souls were saved through the water."

When verse 21 says, "baptism doth also now save us," we need to understand that there are different kinds of "salvation" just as there are different kinds of "baptisms."

Some examples of different kinds of salvation in Scripture are:

James 5:15, "the prayer of faith shall save (protect, deliver) the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up...." Here it is not speaking of salvation of the soul, but deliverance from physical illness.

Acts 27:31, "Except these abide in the ship, ye cannot be saved." Saved from what? Saved from drowning. Suppose I began a new cult. I might call it the "Shipites," and I could use this verse as my divinely given authority that people had to live in ships to be saved. But how many people do you think would be saved if you had to live in ships for salvation?

Hebrews 5:7 mentions that the Father was able to save (or deliver) Jesus from physical death. But Jesus gave His life voluntarily John 10:18, and even though He knew He would suffer in the flesh, He endured the cross for the joy of seeing souls saved through His payment for their sin.

The Greek word in I Peter 3:21, and elsewhere in the Bible, translated "save" is "sozo" and means "to be saved, protected, or delivered." You must always read the context to see what kind of protection, or deliverance, or salvation is being spoken of.

I Peter 3:21 is clear as to what kind of salvation and deliverance is meant here. Notice the words carefully: "baptism doth also now save (protect, deliver) us (NOT the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God)...." As children of God by faith, we should follow Christ's command to be water baptized after we are saved, and when we obey this command we have a clear conscience. We are delivered from a conscience which condemns us Matt. 28:19; Acts 8:36 - 38; Acts 10:47, 48.

In I Cor. 1:17 Paul said, "For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel...." If water baptism were necessary for salvation, then Paul, in effect, would be saying, "For Christ sent me not to see that people were saved, but to preach the gospel...." Anyone can see how ludicrous this would be. In I Cor. 1:14 Paul would have been saying, "I thank God that none of you were saved, but Crispus and Gaius." This would completely nullify the entire purpose of Paul's whole ministry.

Water baptism NEVER cleanses or washes away sin. ONLY CHRIST'S BLOOD can do that Ephesians 1:7. Salvation comes through our faith.

The ordinance of communion is a type of our salvation by the death of Christ. The ordinance of baptism is a type of our service by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Service comes through our obedience, and as believers we should obey God's Word, following His commands to the best of our ability. In this obedience, water baptism should certainly be included. It is a testimony to others that we are now walking in newness of life Romans 6:4.

 

[B-A-C]

True, the "sinners prayer" is not in the Bible per se. At least "not all together in one place". However to say that teaching is unneccesary and bad practice? I wouldn't go quite that far.

Parts of the sinners prayer come from different places in the Bible.. for example.

We are told to confess Jesus is Lord.
Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
10:10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
10:11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."
10:12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him;
10:13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."

We are told many places in the Bible to recognize our sins and ask for forgiveness. (Rom 3:23, Rom 6:23)
Luk 18:13 "But the tax collector, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me, I am a sinner!'
18:14 "I tell you, this man went to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted."

1John 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Luk 11:2 And He said to them, "When you pray, say: 'Father, hallowed be Your name. Your kingdom come.
11:4 'And forgive us our sins, For we ourselves also forgive everyone who is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation.'"

We need to ask for Jesus to come into our lives/hearts, he doesn't force his way in.
Mat 7:7 "Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
7:8 "For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened.

Joh 1:11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him.
1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,

Rev 3:20 'Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me

We are told to confess our faith before other people believers and non-believers alike.
Mat 10:32 "Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven.
10:33 "But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven.

I would say no less than 30 of the Psalms contain the "sinners prayer" in one form or another. Psalm 51 is a prime example.
David recognizes his sin, and asks for forgiveness for his sin, he asks for his sins to be "washed away".

While it is true the Spirit is the one who calls us to God...
Joh 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

Salvation doesn't just "happen". It's a choice we make, it involves confessing our sins, asking for forgiveness, and asking Jesus into our life.
Just beleiving isn't enough, there are a few required steps. (Does this means our "works" saves us?) No, it means we are recognizing what Christ
has done for us, confessing our sins, and asking him into our lives.

Act 2:21 'AND IT SHALL BE THAT EVERYONE WHO CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.'

 

[Brighthouse]

Well Gee I always thought the prayers both sinners and believers use came from Matt 5:6-15? Since Jesus himself told us to pray this way,that is what i do. Works real good for me!! Amen!

 

[B-A-C]

I suspect you meant Matt 6:6-15, but yes that certainly could have been included, the verses I mentioned were by no means an exhaustive list, just a few examples!

 

[David777]

Dear ChristianAspie.

Disregard the nonsense.

Your post was a good one.

In the kingdom of God, there is neither Jew or Greek, nor male or female.

I have no problem with you, I do enjoy lot's of input from all and sundry.

 

[ForumAddict]

Not getting into this much - I got too many nasty PMs from a member for posting a respectful, intelligent, knowledgeable and accurate post. Basically told that because I am a woman I should just shut my mouth and not contribute to the discussion and that God will rebuke me for "talking over men."

Not sure I really like this site too much. I was looking for real Christians, not bullies.

However, I will note here, regarding the thief on the cross (because even though I am a woman I will not keep my mouth shut - this board is supposed to be for everyone, not just men - or so I thought).

The thief on the cross was under Mosaic Law. Once Jesus rose again, the rules changed.

Just proves without a doubt the truth is a factor that many wish not to adhere to. Don't quit, that would only give that person sanctification. Remember that God tells us we will be persecuted for our beliefs of the truth. Ignorance is bliss, after all.

 

[Brighthouse]

Oh My Lord!! I made a mistake on location???? LOL Very good thanks Bac!!

 

[will]

There is a great deal of confusion about this issue (New Birth Experience) but it can easily be cleared up. I would like to examine the portion of scripture in which Jesus himself addresses this issue.

I highlighted points of particular interest in reference to “New Birth” experience.

John 3:1-8
There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Nicodemus, like you and I, came to Jesus with his understanding a little off (not quite right). Let’s look at what Jesus actually said, “Except a man be born again he cannot see, understand, or comprehend the things of the kingdom.”

Then Jesus further defines this born again experience. It consists of two elements: water and Spirit. He goes on to say that without the born again experience you and I cannot enter the kingdom of God.

So, let's look at this in action.

Again, I highlighted the particular points of interest.

Acts 19
And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John’s baptism.
Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
And all the men were about twelve.

These were earnest followers of God. They were doing all they understood to do. When presented with further direction they received it.

So, let’s consider this:

• Paul asks how were you baptized? He re-baptized them in the name of Jesus. WATER
• Paul laid hands on them and the Holy Ghost came on them. SPIRIT
• Didn’t jesus say a sound would accompany all this? They spake with tongues.

You will find this pattern in Acts chapter two and ten as well. It happens like that around the world in every nation where people cry out to God.

Sister,

That is a good attempt to study the Scriptures. But if the conclusion that we draw from the study disagrees with other Scriptures, we need to re-evaluate.

Actually, the first time I read verse 5 of John 3, I thought the Lord was speaking about the order of our birth(s) as a Christian. Meaning we have to be born of water naturally (as in the water that surrounded us when we were in our mother's womb), and we also need to be born of the Spirit (as in the Holy Spirit who indwell us when we are saved by believing in the Lord Jesus).

I know it is tempting to equate the mention of water there with water baptism, but really, unless we read the passage with that concept in mind, there is no indication that the Lord was referring to water baptism.

 

[lioncub]

Water baptism is not a per-requisite for salvation. Did the thief nailed on the cross next to Jesus do water baptism when he asked Jesus to save him? No. Jesus told him he would be with Him in paradise.

Luke 23:39-43

In Mark 16:16, Jesus said, "He that believes and is baptised shall be saved...". Jesus didn't say, "He that believes (only) shall be saved". Did He ?

The thief on the cross cannot be used as an excuse for those who, like yourself, have or have had opportunity to get baptised in water. Therefore, on judgment day, you will have no excuse. You are opposing the truth.