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Election (being chosen) is not salvation

Active
A short interesting video from Dr. Michael Heiser explaining that being chosen by God is not the same as salvation.
He teaches against predestination as guaranteed salvation.
Watch and enjoy. Very informative.

 
Loyal
Here's a transcript, grabbed from the youtube page.



So if all of the Israelites were saved, because Israel was elect, we have a bunch of Baal worshipers in heaven now.

Election is typically defined today, by people who just hear the word a lot as; God chooses who's going to be saved.

And some people will then, therefore, state what is probably an obvious corollary, he chooses the people that aren't saved, that go to hell or whatever.

So you either have predestination, and then well, the other ones go to hell because everybody should go to hell.

And God, fortunately, picks a few out. And so they get held by default, or you have double predestination, where God makes deliberate choices on both.

And I don't care about any of that, because I think it's a fundamental misunderstanding of election. Here's why;this idea, you can read any creed and confession you want.

Any discussion of election, and it's ultimately going to go back to the Old Testament.

To passages like Deuteronomy 7:7-8, where God chooses Israel.

And again, that's not the lone passage. There's several of these.

And so, if you raise the question, well, was Israel elect?

It's kind of a no brainer, well, of course, they were elect.

They're chosen. And then the other nations are not chosen.

Chosen and not chosen. Okay. So Israel's elect.

And should we define then election as salvation, so we can therefore assume that because Israel was elect, the Israelites were also elect, and then they're all saved, right?

At that moment, you might have some kind of suspect that we might have a problem here. And they have a huge problem because there's something in biblical history called the Exile, which dominates the Old Testament from the prophets onward, really, even before the prophets.

God sends the nation, north and south, collective Israel, all 12 tribes at different points. they are exiled, they're expelled from the land that was theirs, covenantally. They're exiled to Babylon and thrown to the wind.

10 of the tribes are thrown into the wind by the Assyrians in 722 BC. Judah, the last two tribes, Judah and Benjamin are taken to Babylon in stages, but everybody's exiled. Why?

Well, fundamentally, and if we have time, we'll hit some specifics here today.

Fundamentally, the reason is idolatry. They worshipped and served other gods. They did lots of other behavioral things that they shouldn't have, all of which the Torah connects to "the peoples who were here" who inhabited Canaan, who worshiped other gods."

The fundamental reason is idolatry.

So, if all of the Israelites were saved, because Israel was elect, we have a bunch of Baal worshipers in heaven now.

That's a serious theological problem.

Okay, God does not tolerate the worship of other gods. Just because they were Israelites doesn't mean that they were saved. Election is not salvation.

But that is typically the way the average Christian who, you know, knows what we're talking about here thinks of it.

That is not the way it was cast in the Old Testament. It can't be because of the exile.

I mean, there are other reasons, but that's the big one. That's the elephant in the room. You don't have a bunch of Baal worshippers in heaven where God says,

"Oh, well, you know, that's okay. I elected you. You could do whatever you want. You worship any god that you wanted but I like to do so I got to let you in. So we're good."

No! That is exactly the opposite of the lesson of the exile.

What election means... election is really about access to the truth.

Israel was elect. They alone had access to the truth about the true God.

The true God was in relationship with them, dispensing things like the Torah, okay, giving them leaders like Moses and prophets and so on. This nation alone was getting the truth. They had access to the truth about the true God.

None of the other nations did.

This is why this nation was supposed to display and teach and live in a certain way so that the other nations, their attention would be drawn.

They would have conversations, ask question. They would learn who the true God is. And God also, you know, this is part of the goal of miracles and signs and wonders, you know, to have the nations alerted to the fact that hey, the true God lives over here.

He's associated with this land over here. Not your deity, this one.

Okay, Israel alone had access to the truth. Now, every Israelite had to make a choice.

They had to believe that.

They had to believe that their God, Yahweh was the true God, the God of all gods. The Most High.

And then they had to do just what Naaman did.

They had to refuse to worship any other. And they had to maintain that.

You couldn't say, "well, I'll worship Yahweh on the Sabbath, now I worship Baal over..."

No! You believe. You acknowledge that Yahweh is the God of all gods.

Okay, he is who he claims to be. For whatever reason, get it was just his choice. He decided to create us and wants it to be in relationship to us.

So he made a covenant with our forefathers. It's amazing. We don't understand it, but he did it. And we believe that, and we will never worship another. Believing loyalty.

Israel had access to the truth but they still had to believe.

They still had to make this believing loyalty decision.

Election is not about salvation. Those two things are not synonymous.
 
Loyal
OK. He makes the point about what election means when applied to Israel. It's a nation blessed to be a blessing to all other nations (Gen 12).

But what did Paul mean by election when writing to the Church in Rome?

Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don’t you know what Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel: “Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me”? And what was God’s answer to him? “I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

What then? What the people of Israel sought so earnestly they did not obtain. The elect among them did, but the others were hardened, as it is written:

“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes that could not see
and ears that could not hear,
to this very day.”


Seems to me that it is linked to 'a remnant chosen by grace' - doesn't that imply salvation? I'm open to being persuaded, but I'd need a bit more than this to push me over the line.
 
Loyal
Seems to me that it is linked to 'a remnant chosen by grace' - doesn't that imply salvation? I'm open to being persuaded, but I'd need a bit more than this to push me over the line.
I think it does, but even though they were 'chosen by grace' - still... it seems there is a requirement... "who have not bowed the knee to Baal."

This is very similar to 144,000 in Revelation.

Rev 14:1; Then I looked, and behold, the Lamb was standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads.
Rev 14:2; And I heard a voice from heaven, like the sound of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder, and the voice which I heard was like the sound of harpists playing on their harps.
Rev 14:3; And they *sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one could learn the song except the one hundred and forty-four thousand who had been purchased from the earth.
Rev 14:4; These are the ones who have not been defiled with women, for they have kept themselves chaste. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These have been purchased from among men as first fruits to God and to the Lamb.
Rev 14:5; And no lie was found in their mouth; they are blameless.

It seems there are some requirements to be one of the 144,000 also.
These discussion inevitably lead to predestination. Did God somehow subconsciousnessly "force" these people to be sinless and blameless?
Or did God simply know in advance that they would undefiled and blameless?
 
Loyal
Israel was elect. They alone had access to the truth about the true God.
there is scripture to support this I would say, but if only Israel is the elect, then only Israel will be 'raptured' I know this opens a can of worms about rapture, that's not my intent here, I want to focus on the 'elect'.

Matt 24:21; "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.
Matt 24:22; "Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.


Matt 24:30; "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.
Matt 24:31; "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

Whether you believe in the rapture or not, that's not the point, I don't want to get side-tracked on the rapture. The point is, whenever "the gathering event" happens, it will only be the elect.
So then.. who are the elect?
 
Loyal
And God, fortunately, picks a few out. And so they get held by default, or you have double predestination, where God makes deliberate choices on both.
This does cause a problem.

1Tim 2:3; This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Tim 2:4; who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

2Pet 3:9; The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

So then if the will of God is for everyone to be saved, and nothing can over-ride the will of God, then why aren't all men saved?

... to me, the only answer is free-will.

But I am willing to accept that there may be certain cases, ( Judas, Pharaoh, Jacob and Esau ) where God did orchestrate events to specifically make certain choices happen.
So then, is it possible it could be both?
 
Member
His first mistake is saying that all the nation of israel was elect to salvation, only a remnant was Rom 9-11. Also Election in Christ is Salvation, which will be manifested during a persons life time Eph 1:1-14; 2 Thess 2:13-14 The speaker is mixing unconditional election with freewill salvation, thats dangerous. and unscriptural. I have to say the guy is a false teacher and denies Salvation by Grace.
 
Active
Salvation of souls is the desire of our loving God and he has set the plan in motion from Adam to Noah to Abraham to Moses and the prophets to his Son Jesus Christ.
But in both the OT and the NT salvation is conditional - it is conditional on obedience - it is of our free will - that those "chosen" would continue to love God and do righteousness.
The children of Israel were defeated by their idolatry, and Christians can fail through unfaithfulness.
There is no such doctrine as unconditional salvation.

Deu 28:1 “And if you faithfully obey the voice of the LORD your God, being careful to do all his commandments that I command you today, the LORD your God will set you high above all the nations of the earth.
Deu 28:2 And all these blessings shall come upon you and overtake you, if you obey the voice of the LORD your God.
Deu 28:15 “But if you will not obey the voice of the LORD your God or be careful to do all his commandments and his statutes that I command you today, then all these curses shall come upon you and overtake you.
Deu 28:16 Cursed shall you be in the city, and cursed shall you be in the field.

John 14:15 “If you love me, you will keep my commandments."
John 14:21 Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me. And he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him.”
John 15:10 If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love.
1Cor 7:19 For neither circumcision counts for anything nor uncircumcision, but keeping the commandments of God.
1John 2:4 Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him,
1John 3:24 Whoever keeps his commandments abides in God, and God in him. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit whom he has given us.
 
Active
THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL AND THE LAW IS A TUTOR TO TEACH US
1Cor 10:4 and all [Israel] drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual Rock that followed them, and the Rock was Christ.
10:5 Nevertheless, with most of them God was not pleased, for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
10:6 Now these things took place as examples for us, that we might not desire evil as they did. - [Paul is stating that Spirit-filled Christians can desire to do evil]
10:7 Do not be idolaters as some of them were; as it is written, “The people sat down to eat and drink and rose up to play.”
10:8 We must not indulge in fornication as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in a single day.
10:9 We must not put Christ to the test, as some of them did and were destroyed by serpents,
10:10 nor grumble, as some of them did and were destroyed by the Destroyer.
10:11 Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come.
10:12 Therefore let anyone who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall.
 
Loyal
Not having listened to the video -- but seeing the tittle -- would agree. God is the only One who Does know who the / His Elect are. But that 'elect' person Still has to personally accept Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior.

The 'elect' Will , at some point in their life, accept Jesus Christ as their Savior.

We are to share the Gospel unto salvation with all who will listen.

An uncle of mine accepted Christ as his Savior when he was dying from cancer. His attitude / desires were immediately changed. He passed away three weeks later. He'd been a pretty good guy with a neighborhood grocery store and had a speed boat he'd take people out on frequently. But he'd never been interested in church / anything religious. His Only regret upon accepting Christ -- that he hadn't listened to the Gospel years earlier.

There Is the thought that the Children of Israel -- God's chosen people Will all accept Christ -- which is the reason For the 7 yr of tribulation yet coming. And I know that That is very much debatable.
 
Loyal
sad sad sad. It is hard for christians to agree on mostly anything in todays world, A lot do not even believe that he died and rose on the 3rd day. But is still waiting on His return as the Resurrection day, And they are believers in Christ and do believe He is the Son of GOD.
 
Active
sad sad sad. It is hard for christians to agree on mostly anything in todays world,
Well that problem of another gospel has always been there right from the beginning.
From those wanting to bring Christians under the Law of Moses, to Gnosticism, to unbelief, false doctrines and false prophets, wolves, and so on.
The apostles had a full job keeping the gospel true.
Perhaps this constant free for all of many gospels truly reveals that salvation is free will and obedience is better than faith alone.
Once I was Roman Catholic then I was converted to become a true Pentecostal Christian upheld by the word of God and by the Spirit of truth. One needs both working in harmony together.

Jude 1:3 Beloved, although I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints.
1:4 For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.
 
Loyal
@ Downunder --- you commented that you were once a RCC and then converted to become a 'true Pentecostal Christian'. In other wards a 'born again believer'? or What Is a 'true Pentecostal Christian'?
 
Loyal
What Is a 'true Pentecostal Christian'?
The short answer, is generally those who practice the things in 1Cor 12 & 14, and Mark 16:16-18;
There is more to it. Pentecostals believe the in-filling of the Holy Spirit and the Baptism of the Holy Spirit are two different events.
Virtually all Pentecostal denominations are "Arminian" in nature.

But that's a quick and short answer.
 
Active
@ Downunder --- you commented that you were once a RCC and then converted to become a 'true Pentecostal Christian'. In other wards a 'born again believer'? or What Is a 'true Pentecostal Christian'?
There are many variants to being "Pentecostal" from former AOG churches that have refashioned themselves, and many Baptist churches claim to be Pentecostal, then there are a multitude of Charismatic ways, Oneness Pentecostals, ...
A Spirit-filled Christian can measure or examine themselves by believing and acting on all of the commandments laid out in the word of God - the gospels, Acts and the epistles to the churches.
The fundamentals must be Mark 16:15-20 followed by the examples in Acts and then in accord with 1Corinthians 12 and 14.
A true Pentecostal Christian of course prays in tongues unto God > praying in the Spirit.
 
Active
Israel was chosen, elected, by God. That doesn't mean they were saved. However, the promises were made to Abraham and they were unconditional. God promised Abraham that, he would be the father of a great nation, that he would be the father of many nations, that all nations would be blessed through him, and that all the land he could see, God would give him. God promised it to Abraham and his seed. The great nation that Abraham was the father of was Israel. The Israelites were Abraham's seed and as such believed that the promises belonged to them. They were the elect people of God. God choose them to be His means of fulfilling the promises to Abraham. What they misunderstood is that they were not the seed to whom the promises referred. Paul makes this case in Galatians 3 when he says,

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. (Gal. 3:1 KJV)

When God said the promise was to Abraham and his seed, He meant Christ, (the promise had also been made to Isaac and Jacob) not all the physical offspring of Abraham. Thus Israel was chosen, but they were not the ones to inherit the promises. As Paul says in Eph 1, they were chosen to be holy and blameless before Him in love.

Paul makes the case that Israel is the elect of God, however, it is not all of the physical seed, but rather those who are adopted through the Promised Seed, which is Christ. He also makes the case that those who are in Christ are Abraham's seed and grafted into Israel.
 
Active
sad sad sad. It is hard for christians to agree on mostly anything in todays world, A lot do not even believe that he died and rose on the 3rd day. But is still waiting on His return as the Resurrection day, And they are believers in Christ and do believe He is the Son of GOD.
That's why only God dose the chosing and only He separates the Goats to the left and the Sheep to the right, Matthew 25:33, NOT Man!
And He made all these decisions before He created the foundations of the World
 
Loyal
There are many variants to being "Pentecostal" from former AOG churches that have refashioned themselves, and many Baptist churches claim to be Pentecostal, then there are a multitude of Charismatic ways, Oneness Pentecostals, ...
A Spirit-filled Christian can measure or examine themselves by believing and acting on all of the commandments laid out in the word of God - the gospels, Acts and the epistles to the churches.
The fundamentals must be Mark 16:15-20 followed by the examples in Acts and then in accord with 1Corinthians 12 and 14.
A true Pentecostal Christian of course prays in tongues unto God > praying in the Spirit.

I don't know why a Baptist church would claim to be Pentecostal.

Your comment -- second sentence -- 'by believing and acting on all the commandments laid out in the Word of God -- the Gospels, etc. -- the marks of a Spirit-filled Christian. Sounds like a works-based salvation.

You're presenting a lot of qualifiers for salvation. How about simply 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 "to be saved". The other passages in 1 Corinthians are about the spiritual gifts. Which are given to born again believers as the Holy Spirit sees fit.
Chapter 14 is talking about speaking in tongues. And it's says that prophesying is more important than speaking in tongues. There has to be an interpreter for speaking in tongues in a church service. And only 2 or 3 speaking in turn -- no more.
Vs 19 of chapter 14 "yet in the church I would rather speak five words with my understanding , that I teach others, also , than ten thousand words in a tongue."

Years ago there was an Hispanic couple who shared in church that at home they both prayed in tongues -- together. Part of their private worship. But they would not do that in church. We were a very small congregation so they felt freer to share that.

Personally, I've never spoken or prayed in tongues. Have never had a desire To do that. And years ago we'd hosted a community Bible study group. One of the ladies was sincerely concerned about my salvation because I'd never done that. She went to a church that had classes to learn to do that. She had taken both my hands in hers and was very warm in her concern. She would have led me to Christ on the spot -- but I assured her that I was already a born again believer.
 

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