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Does the immense scale of the universe undercut or strengthen your faith in Jesus Christ?

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We know that the scope of the Bible is limited to the care and salvation of Adam and Eve’s descendants via initially the Hebrew tribe and Yahweh and currently via Christianity and the Lord Jesus Christ. It is anthropocentric which means it regards humankind as the central or most important element of existence.

Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.” So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them." (Genesis 1:26-27).

Humans are created in His image above the animals plus Christians who abide in Christ are ranked higher than angels because one day they will even judge them. (1 Corinthians 6:3).

Therefore according to the Bible we could argue that creating humans was the only motivation God would have for creating the universe. In fact Psalm 19:1 agrees with this logical observation and says,

" The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament show his handy work."

They declare to us and we are in awe of it.

And we further note in Psalm 8 a beautiful reflection on God’s creation and a pertinent question:

When I see the heavens, the works of your hands, the moon and the stars which you arranged, what is man that you should keep him in mind, mortal man that you care for him?

Please note that this was aeons before the humble telescope came along or the Hubble space telescope that can see billion of light years into the cosmos. We know in Bible days the view of the cosmos was some what limited as they had no scientific instrument to observe its immense vastness etc.

So "the firmament" is described as a giant inverted brass bowl that has the stars fixed in it, and that it has windows that God can open to let the "waters above" flood planet Earth.

" In the Old Testament the word “shamayim” represented both the sky/atmosphere, and the dwelling place of God. The “raqia” or firmament - the visible sky - was a solid inverted bowl over the Earth, coloured blue from the heavenly ocean above it.

Rain, snow, wind and hail were kept in storehouses outside the “raqia,” which had "windows" to allow them in - the waters for Noah’s World Wide flood entered when the "windows of heaven" were opened.

Heaven extended down to and was coterminous with (i.e. it touched) the farthest edges of the Earth (e.g. Deuteronomy 4:32); humans looking up from Earth saw the floor of heaven, which they saw also as God's throne, as made of clear blue “lapislazuli” (Exodus 24:9-10), and (Ezekiel 1:26). Below that was a layer of water, the source of rain, which was separated from us by an impenetrable barrier, the firmament (Genesis 1:6-8). The rain may also be stored in heavenly cisterns (Job: 38:37) or storehouses (Deut 28:12) alongside the storehouses for wind, hail and snow. " (https://www.wikiwand.com/en...

Does this mean that the Bible got our cosmos wrong?


Because we know that the earth is not a flat sphere covered by a dome and Gods throne cannot be seen from earth. In fact the cosmos is so huge that our Milky Way galaxy, in which planet earth resides, alone consists of 200 billion stars like our sun. With 300 billion galaxies (every day thousands more are discovered) in our universe each with billion of stars - the mind boggles.

Considering the scale of our universe there has to be millions of life forms all over the forty billion light years across universe.

1. What happens to fundamentalist Christian belief if we by logical deduction conclude that intelligent life must exist on millions of planets in the universe?

2.Does the immense scale of the universe undercut or strengthen your faith in Jesus Christ?
 
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I imagine the scale of the universe compared to the scale on whichow we live our everyday lives spins the brain of anybody who gives it proper thought.

I don't have a ready answer for the question of how to translate God's word given to people living with an ancient perception of the world to us with an understanding of billions of light years. And that's before we begin on quantum mechanics and dark matter etc.

I do question that the Bible is anthropocentric and particularly that all creation is for humans.

The Genesis accounts show God pleased with all of creation - 'God saw that it was good' - humans are created in Gods image as partners to serve and rule over the rest of creation.

Has God done similar things on other planets? We have no way of knowing.

In short the size of the universe adds a whole load of philosophical questions, but none that undermine or devalue my faith.
 
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1. What happens to fundamentalist Christian belief if we by logical deduction conclude that intelligent life must exist on millions of planets in the universe?

2.Does the immense scale of the universe undercut or strengthen your faith in Jesus Christ?
1. There is no intelligent life on other planets. Your logical deduction I assume is based on evolution. Evolution as it currently stands is not logical.
2. Strengthen. It is created for us. We remain humans in heaven. We will travel and explore God's universe.
 
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The God of the "universe" who made all things does not ever go "small". Everything the Lord God does is, " .....exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think....." (Eph 3:20)
 
Member
Your logical deduction I assume is based on evolution.
Nope - its based on cosmological deduction. Millions of earth size planets and like planets in the The Goldilocks Zone . Why won't life be there and maybe intelligent life? And Evolution happens wither you accept it or not. It just means change over time..

Take a look
 
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Member
It is created for us.
You had better think that one through - You said the universe is created for us - really - than why can we not survive one second outside earths atmosphere. Let alone the forty b i l l i o n light years across universe that is expanding at the speed of light which means the universe has no borders it goes on forever and ever and ever. Bible cosmology and actual scientific cosmology are two different things take a look at this picture it is how you and literal bible believers view things as i mention in the OP with many scripture referenced. Read my OP again.

https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/b3aca7a51eaff0342d30e04001fe211f12d074fe82b1474d7006e72b2d4d0898.jpg?w=600&h=749
 
Active
Nope - its based on cosmological deduction. Millions of earth size planets and like planets in the The Goldilocks Zone . Why won't life be there and maybe intelligent life? And Evolution happens wither you accept it or not. It just means change over time..

Take a look

When people talk about evolution, it's applying to the 'macro' evolution. "micro" evolution applies to that development which Can be observed 'here and now' and can be checked out by others. Macro - evolution states that over millions or billions of years that change has taken place -- as in -- this universe gradually developing and water life progressing on the land and again, over time, progressing into human beings. And THAT is totally unfounded.

I'd rather use the term 'developing'.

Biblically -- God created the heavens and the earth -- Everything in the air, land and sea and people were created separately from the animal world. We know that salvation is only for people.
We Also know from space exploration that astronauts have to have special suits, etc in order to be in outer space. Mankind as we know it -- can't survive without oxygen support like we have on this planet. Now - supposedly -- there are signs of similar conditions on Mars. But no one has observed real Life there. So - in spite of the sci-fi movies -- we would appear to be the only real people existing.
 
Active
Nope - its based on cosmological deduction. Millions of earth size planets and like planets in the The Goldilocks Zone . Why won't life be there and maybe intelligent life?
Humans created in a flesh that is weak, need a Savior. Jesus won't die again for another intelligent life. Then the evidence does not suggest God make more angel type beings. God has already made many angels and humans. He does the task of creating intelligent life properly. He doesn't need to repeat it over and over.

Many have dreams and fantasies about life on other planets. It is actually hilarious. You are missing what life is all about and not trying to grasp what God has planned for a creation that He can spoil with no limit. Life on other planets is another bubble god bashers want our minds to live in. It does mock scripture and God cherishing and having a special plan for mankind.

And Evolution happens wither you accept it or not. It just means change over time.
Evolution does not happen. They are yet to prove it does. It does not mean change over time. It is the theory given to link fossils to our dna to make God creating seem silly. Change over time is called adaptation. Evolution finds any straw to hold it up.
 
Active
When people talk about evolution, it's applying to the 'macro' evolution. "micro" evolution applies to that development which Can be observed 'here and now' and can be checked out by others. Macro - evolution states that over millions or billions of years that change has taken place -- as in -- this universe gradually developing and water life progressing on the land and again, over time, progressing into human beings. And THAT is totally unfounded.

I'd rather use the term 'developing'.

Biblically -- God created the heavens and the earth -- Everything in the air, land and sea and people were created separately from the animal world. We know that salvation is only for people.
We Also know from space exploration that astronauts have to have special suits, etc in order to be in outer space. Mankind as we know it -- can't survive without oxygen support like we have on this planet. Now - supposedly -- there are signs of similar conditions on Mars. But no one has observed real Life there. So - in spite of the sci-fi movies -- we would appear to be the only real people existing.
Many accept micro evolution. But neither macro or micro has any actual evidence.
 
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You had better think that one through - You said the universe is created for us - really - than why can we not survive one second outside earths atmosphere.
Humans stay humans. But what does change is we get a new body.

Many seem to think the spiritual realm is a completely different realm. It is hilarious. The devil when in heaven, wore a crown made of many precious gems that can all be found on earth today. The new Jerusalem is described as consisting of materials that can be found on earth today. Jesus comes on a horse. Angels have chariots. You know the bible, you know these verses and more I am sure.

The universe is most certainly created for us and all the angels. Who else is it created for? ET? God did not lay His life down for ET. ET must be an animal. The only intelligent life that may be on other planets will be animals. No humans or angels. Humans have a soul, body and spirit.

Just a side point. As you noted, angels are intelligent. A little more then us. They must therefore, just like us relish technology and creating from dna. Since I believe that according to scripture God is not a tyrant. I do believe many angels make types of animals. Even the fallen angels. They are not all sitting and twiddling their thumbs. God gives them something to do. They too have space and time to do things. I believe they are behind grey aliens, werewolves, vampires, mermaids and what not else. If you or I lived for thousands of years, we would be able to mix dna on another level. They can and do. Not intelligent life though. They cannot breed or re-create themselves. A spirit and mind with a will is needed for that. Something it seems only God can create. We can literally only work with our ''body''. Or breeding animals.

I feel there is a lot more to this verse Gen 1:27 In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made He him.
 
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Active
We know that the scope of the Bible is limited to the care and salvation of Adam and Eve’s descendants via initially the Hebrew tribe and Yahweh and currently via Christianity and the Lord Jesus Christ. It is anthropocentric which means it regards humankind as the central or most important element of existence.

Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.” So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them." (Genesis 1:26-27).

Humans are created in His image above the animals plus Christians who abide in Christ are ranked higher than angels because one day they will even judge them. (1 Corinthians 6:3).

Therefore according to the Bible we could argue that creating humans was the only motivation God would have for creating the universe. In fact Psalm 19:1 agrees with this logical observation and says,

" The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament show his handy work."

They declare to us and we are in awe of it.

And we further note in Psalm 8 a beautiful reflection on God’s creation and a pertinent question:

When I see the heavens, the works of your hands, the moon and the stars which you arranged, what is man that you should keep him in mind, mortal man that you care for him?

Please note that this was aeons before the humble telescope came along or the Hubble space telescope that can see billion of light years into the cosmos. We know in Bible days the view of the cosmos was some what limited as they had no scientific instrument to observe its immense vastness etc.

So "the firmament" is described as a giant inverted brass bowl that has the stars fixed in it, and that it has windows that God can open to let the "waters above" flood planet Earth.

" In the Old Testament the word “shamayim” represented both the sky/atmosphere, and the dwelling place of God. The “raqia” or firmament - the visible sky - was a solid inverted bowl over the Earth, coloured blue from the heavenly ocean above it.

Rain, snow, wind and hail were kept in storehouses outside the “raqia,” which had "windows" to allow them in - the waters for Noah’s World Wide flood entered when the "windows of heaven" were opened.

Heaven extended down to and was coterminous with (i.e. it touched) the farthest edges of the Earth (e.g. Deuteronomy 4:32); humans looking up from Earth saw the floor of heaven, which they saw also as God's throne, as made of clear blue “lapislazuli” (Exodus 24:9-10), and (Ezekiel 1:26). Below that was a layer of water, the source of rain, which was separated from us by an impenetrable barrier, the firmament (Genesis 1:6-8). The rain may also be stored in heavenly cisterns (Job: 38:37) or storehouses (Deut 28:12) alongside the storehouses for wind, hail and snow. " (https://www.wikiwand.com/en...

Does this mean that the Bible got our cosmos wrong?

Because we know that the earth is not a flat sphere covered by a dome and Gods throne cannot be seen from earth. In fact the cosmos is so huge that our Milky Way galaxy, in which planet earth resides, alone consists of 200 billion stars like our sun. With 300 billion galaxies (every day thousands more are discovered) in our universe each with billion of stars - the mind boggles.

Considering the scale of our universe there has to be millions of life forms all over the forty billion light years across universe.

1. What happens to fundamentalist Christian belief if we by logical deduction conclude that intelligent life must exist on millions of planets in the universe?

2.Does the immense scale of the universe undercut or strengthen your faith in Jesus Christ?
I don't know how when you see how great the universe and all of creation is, that you come to the conclusions you do. The bible speaks of God's greatness. You even quote the verses.

Thinking of the universe raises so many questions about God's greatness. What is the limit to it? We can lose our minds trying to grasp this.

A human has no chance of grasping how great it's Creator is. This is a truth we need to just accept. It is not in us to accept it. But it is truly beyond us.

However, if just meditate on the fact that we are currently ''alive''. I believe it is a truth much more impressive then an expanding universe of particles.
 
Active
1. What happens to fundamentalist Christian belief if we by logical deduction conclude that intelligent life must exist on millions of planets in the universe?
If there is life on other planets, which I do not believe there is, their existence will soon be totally wiped out after the Judgment of this earth.

2Pe 3:12 While you wait and earnestly long for (expect and hasten) the coming of the day of God by reason of which the flaming heavens will be dissolved, and the [material] elements [of the universe] will flare and melt with fire (AMP)
 
Member
Evolution does not happen. They are yet to prove it does.
Not one serious scientist on planet earth will agree with your religious faith based comment - you seem to be suffering from an aspect of human psychology known as "confirmation bias" . That’s when you only notice what seems to support your beliefs and ignore what appears to dis-confirm it. It's a quirk everyone has; even scientists have to be very careful that their research and methods are not influenced by it. In our searches for facts/fairness/justice,truth etc we must stay aware of it, lest they are devalued or lost and we are deceived. Yet, all religions are saturated with confirmation-bias. I will prepare a OP on evolution then we can tackle it head on.
 
Member
the flaming heavens will be dissolved, and the [material] elements [of the universe] will flare and melt with fire (AMP)
Bible cosmology again. They did NOT know about the cosmos then. We do know much much more. And there IS no way a 40 billion light years across ( and growing) universe filled with gazillions of stars will flame up.

Bible cosmology below click on the high lighted link

https://uploads.disquscdn.com/image...074fe82b1474d7006e72b2d4d0898.jpg?w=600&h=749
 
Member
Change over time is called adaptation. Evolution finds any straw to hold it up.
Evolution is change in the heritable characteristics of biological populations over successive generations. Evolutionary processes give rise to biodiversity at every level of biological organisation, including the levels of species, individual organisms, and molecules. There are two reasons why people dismiss the Theory of Evolution (ToE):

1. They have a vital interest not to understand it. 2. They lack the knowledge necessary to understand it.

1. If you think that you are not an primate, you haven't understood taxonomy.

2. If you think that radiometric dating is incorrect, you haven't understood nuclear physics.

3. If you think that "it's just a theory" / the ToE has never been proven, you haven't understood the philosophy of science.

4. If you think that there is too little evidence for the ToE. you haven't understood epistemology.

5. If you think that the ToE is atheistic, you haven't understood statistics and theology.

6. If you think that ID or creationism is a scientific alternative to the ToE, you haven't understood science.

7. If you think that the ToE is equal to what Darwin wrote (or call it "Darwinism"), you haven't understood the history of science.

8. If you think that ID is a science or scientific, you don't understand science and jurisprudence.

9. If you think the scientific community has, could or wants to suppress alternative explanations, you're a conspiracy theorist.

10. If you think you know enough to dismiss the ToE, you haven't understood the Dunning-Kruger effect.
 
Active
Bible cosmology again. They did NOT know about the cosmos then. We do know much much more. And there IS no way a 40 billion light years across ( and growing) universe filled with gazillions of stars will flame up.

Bible cosmology below click on the high lighted link

https://uploads.disquscdn.com/image...074fe82b1474d7006e72b2d4d0898.jpg?w=600&h=749
Scientists today believe the universe is on the edge of collapse where it can only expand so far and eventually snap back upon itself in total destruction.

Universe may be on the brink of collapse (on the cosmological timescale)
 
Active
1. They have a vital interest not to understand it. 2. They lack the knowledge necessary to understand it.
I think not. Always funny to hear someone say ''you are too dumb to grasp that you come from an ape''.
1. If you think that you are not an primate, you haven't understood taxonomy.
If you think you are a primate you have not grasped that you are soul, body and spirit.
2. If you think that radiometric dating is incorrect, you haven't understood nuclear physics.
The opposite seems true. More Bad News for Radiometric Dating
3. If you think that "it's just a theory" / the ToE has never been proven, you haven't understood the philosophy of science.
Since when is science ''Oh look a dinosaur fossil, it must be related to me''. It is supposition science. It would be nice to see where science would be today if it were not for those naughty boys pushing evolution.
4. If you think that there is too little evidence for the ToE. you haven't understood epistemology.
It is because you understand epistemology that you have to reject the belief of evolution.
5. If you think that the ToE is atheistic, you haven't understood statistics and theology.
If you think ToE is not anti Christianity, you haven't understood or read the bible.
6. If you think that ID or creationism is a scientific alternative to the ToE, you haven't understood science.
If you think randomization by natural selection will ever produce working products that are irreducibly complex, you simply fail at engineering.
7. If you think that the ToE is equal to what Darwin wrote (or call it "Darwinism"), you haven't understood the history of science.
You mean the history of the ''evolution discussion''. Don't make me laugh by including it in ''science''.
8. If you think that ID is a science or scientific, you don't understand science and jurisprudence.
If you think ID is as a result of church doctrine / law, you are naïve.
9. If you think the scientific community has, could or wants to suppress alternative explanations, you're a conspiracy theorist.
ID is a fact. It should shock all that the scientific community at large reject it. It does not shock Christians. Jesus was a saint, fact. Yet He died to the hands of god bashers. God haters. They are in the majority. Fact. Stop being ignorant. Unless you want to be biased. Your free will to abuse.

If you think there is no influence on which beliefs make their way to the classroom you are ignorant.

10. If you think you know enough to dismiss the ToE, you haven't understood the Dunning-Kruger effect.
Straw.
 

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