• Welcome to Talk Jesus

    A true bible based, Jesus centered online community. Join over 11,000 members today

    Register Log In

Dismiss Hell and You Dismiss Jesus

Users who viewed this discussion (Total:15)

Loyal
The truth is that the oldest and most reliable biblical manuscripts include Christ’s explicit statements about Hell. The gospel writers didn’t make up their Lord’s words in the gospels. They simply recorded them. And the hyper-careful scribes didn’t add them to the manuscripts, they simply copied them, word for word, from one to another.

The truth is that Jesus spoke more about Hell than anyone else in all of Scripture. (Because of its importance, I devoted a chapter of my book If God Is Good to the subject of Hell.) Jesus referred to Hell as a real place and described it in graphic terms (see Matthew 10:28; 13:40–42; Mark 9:43–48). He spoke of a fire that burns but doesn’t consume, an undying worm that eats away at the damned, and a lonely and foreboding darkness.

Christ says the unsaved “will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth” (Matthew 8:12). Jesus taught that an unbridgeable chasm separates the wicked in Hell from the righteous in paradise. The wicked suffer terribly, remain conscious, retain their desires and memories, long for relief, cannot find comfort, cannot leave their torment, and have no hope (see Luke 16:19–3 1).

Dismiss Hell and You Dismiss Jesus - Blog - Eternal Perspective Ministries
 
Unworthy Servant
Staff Member
Whosoever therefore shall confess Me before men, him will I confess also before My Father which is in heaven.
Matthew 10:32

But whoever denies Me before men will be denied before the angels of God.
Luke 12:9

But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father in heaven.
Matthew 10:33

And now, little children, remain in Him, so that when He appears, we may be confident and unashamed before Him at His coming.
1John 2:28
 
Member
You can confess Christ before men all you like, but if they cannot spiritually discern what you mean, then it is in vain. If you go along with people's wrong motives to make you fall, then you deny Christ. If you stick to your guns, Christ will not deny you. In these last days there will be great tribulation. Many will fall away when they deny Christ and go along with the anti-Christ's agenda.
 
Member
Yes, really, really, really—just ask Paul,

1 Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Me: You can lead the cow to water, but you cannot make him drink.
 
Unworthy Servant
Staff Member
Greeting @Truthcomber

according to Jesus it is not in vain...

Whosoever therefore shall confess Me before men, him will I confess also before My Father which is in heaven.
Matthew 10:32


Bless you ....><>
 
Member
Whosoever therefore shall confess Me before men, him ( this is referring to one who is confessing Christ before men, not necessarily those who hear the confession) will I confess also before My Father which is in heaven.

Matt 10:17 But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues; 18 And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles.
19 But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak. 20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you...22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

John 16:2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service. 3 And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me.
 
Member
1 Cor 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: 8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
 
Unworthy Servant
Staff Member
Greetings once more,

your addition is unnecessary

Whosoever therefore shall confess Me before men, him ( this is referring to one who is confessing Christ before men, not necessarily those who hear the confession) will I confess also before My Father which is in heaven.
as the Word speaks for itself. This i think you know so i m somewhat concerned as to why you have added it. Do you do this with all Scripture or only selected verses?


and i am not sure what why you quoted the next Scripture although it is a precious word for them that believe.
1 Cor 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: 8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

Bless you ....><>
 
Active
@Truthcomber -- in your last couple of posts -- some of the verses are printed in 'white' and can't really be read. You use yellow to high light parts of other verses. That color works better.

Your 1 Cor. 2:8 verse is a good example. Part of it is in white and can't really be read.
 
Active
@Dave M -- I clicked into the link and have been trying to get onto the newsletter. Doesn't seem to want to work. Well -- the link works but the email won't go through. Any suggestions.
 
Loyal
it works for me here is the whole article copy and paste

You seem to be missing the big point here—the complete absurdity that God hurts people for any reason! Jesus told us God is not like the pagan deities who tortured people in Hades, but that he is forgiving, loving, and caring. If one is willing to look, there's substantial evidence contained in the gospels to show that Jesus opposed the idea of Hell. True, there are a few statements that made their way into the copies of copies of copies of the gospel texts which place “Hell” on Jesus’ lips, but these adulterations came along many decades after his death.

This comment is misinformed. The truth is that the oldest and most reliable biblical manuscripts include Christ’s explicit statements about Hell. The gospel writers didn’t make up their Lord’s words in the gospels. They simply recorded them. And the hyper-careful scribes didn’t add them to the manuscripts, they simply copied them, word for word, from one to another.

The truth is that Jesus spoke more about Hell than anyone else in all of Scripture. (Because of its importance, I devoted a chapter of my book If God Is Good to the subject of Hell.) Jesus referred to Hell as a real place and described it in graphic terms (see Matthew 10:28; 13:40–42; Mark 9:43–48). He spoke of a fire that burns but doesn’t consume, an undying worm that eats away at the damned, and a lonely and foreboding darkness.

Christ says the unsaved “will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth” (Matthew 8:12). Jesus taught that an unbridgeable chasm separates the wicked in Hell from the righteous in paradise. The wicked suffer terribly, remain conscious, retain their desires and memories, long for relief, cannot find comfort, cannot leave their torment, and have no hope (see Luke 16:19–3 1).

Our Savior could not have painted a bleaker picture of Hell.

C. S. Lewis said, “I have met no people who fully disbelieved in Hell and also had a living and life-giving belief in Heaven.” The biblical teaching on both destinations stands or falls together. If the one is real, so is the other; if the one is a myth, so is the other. The best reason for believing in Hell is that Jesus said it exists.

It isn’t just what Jesus said about Hell that matters. It is the fact that it was he who said it.

“There seems to be a kind of conspiracy,” wrote Dorothy Sayers, “to forget, or to conceal, where the doctrine of hell comes from. The doctrine of hell is not ‘mediaeval priestcraft’ for frightening people into giving money to the church: it is Christ’s deliberate judgment on sin.... We cannot repudiate hell without altogether repudiating Christ.”

Why do I believe in an eternal Hell? Because Jesus clearly and repeatedly affirmed its existence. As Sayers suggested, you cannot dismiss Hell without dismissing Jesus.

Atheist Bertrand Russell wrote, “There is one very serious defect to my mind in Christ’s moral character, and that is that He believed in hell. I do not myself feel that any person who is really profoundly humane can believe in everlasting punishment.”

Shall we believe Jesus or Bertrand Russell? For me, it is not a difficult choice.

C. S. Lewis said of Hell, “There is no doctrine which I would more willingly remove from Christianity than this, if it lay in my power. But it has the full support of Scripture and, specially, of Our Lord’s own words; it has always been held by Christendom; and it has the support of reason.”

We cannot make Hell go away simply because the thought of it makes us uncomfortable. If I were as holy as God, if I knew a fraction of what he knows, I would realize Hell is just and right. We should weep over Hell, but not deny it. If there isn’t an eternal Hell, Jesus made a terrible mistake in affirming there is. And if we cannot trust Jesus in his teaching about Hell, why should we trust anything he said, including his offer of salvation?

We may pride ourselves in thinking we are too loving to believe in Hell. But in saying this, we blaspheme, for we claim to be more loving than Jesus—more loving than the One who with outrageous love took upon himself the full penalty for our sin.

Who are we to think we are better than Jesus?

Or that when it comes to Hell, or anything else, we know better than he does?

God determined he would rather endure the torment of the Cross on our behalf than live in Heaven without us. Apart from Christ, we would all spend eternity in Hell. But God so much wants us not to go to Hell that he paid a horrible price on the cross so we wouldn’t have to. This can be distorted into self-congratulation: if God paid such a great price for us, we must be extremely valuable. A better perspective is that if God had to pay such a great price for us, it emphasizes both the extent of his love and the extent of our evil.

Jesus asks a haunting question in Mark 8:36–37: “What good is it for a man to gain the whole world, yet forfeit his soul? Or what can a man give in exchange for his soul?”

The price has been paid, but we can’t benefit from forgiveness unless we choose to receive it. A convicted criminal may be offered a pardon, but if he rejects it, he remains condemned.

By denying Hell’s reality, we lower the stakes of redemption and minimize Christ’s work on the cross. If Christ’s crucifixion and resurrection didn’t deliver us from a real and eternal Hell, then his work on the cross is less heroic, less potent, less consequential, and less deserving of our worship and praise.

Theologian William Shedd put it this way: “The doctrine of Christ’s vicarious atonement logically stands or falls with that of eternal punishment.”
 
Member
Hi brother Bear,


You quoted me
Whosoever therefore shall confess Me before men, him ( this is referring to one who is confessing Christ before men, not necessarily those who hear the confession) will I confess also before My Father which is in heaven.
as the Word speaks for itself. This i think you know so i m somewhat concerned as to why you have added it. Do you do this with all Scripture or only selected verses?

Me: You have only two choices here whom Christ will confess before his father, (1) the speaker or (2) the recipient. I say it is the speaker that the Messiah will confess before his father. You say it is the recipient.


You: and i am not sure what why you quoted the next Scripture although it is a precious word for them that believe.

You quoted this scripture by me:
1 Cor 2:7
But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: 8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

My response:

Isa 28:9
Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

Me: This is how you understand scripture, by putting the verses together with the help of the holy spirit. I had added in quotation ( this is referring to one who is confessing Christ before men, not necessarily those who hear the confession),
Tell me, what is the difference if I had presented this comment after 1 Cor 2:9 instead of in the content of the scripture. I put it in the body of the scripture where it pertains to for more clarity.

Isa: 28 11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. 12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear. 13 But the word of the Lord was unto them precept upon precept; line upon line, line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

Me: Paradoxically, his is also how you do not understand scriptures. You cannot put the verses together with understanding, even if it is shown to you. The princes, including the religious leaders, are of the noble and wise of the world. Most will not understand (receive) the word of God, nor can unless God reveals it to them.

2 Tim 3: 7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

1 Cor 1:25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. 26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: 27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; 28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: 29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.

Me:
Point is, no matter what station in life you are at, if God doesn’t reveal his word to you, you will not understand it.
 
Member
So, I ask you again, who do you think Christ is going to reveal to the father, the speaker or the recipient? This is a simple question. Tell me which one.
 
Loyal
Matthew 25:46
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Matthew 25:41
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
 
Member
Hint:


Now:

Romans 11:32
For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon ALL. 33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

Later:

Hab 2:13
Behold, is it not of the Lord of hosts that the people shall labour in the very fire, and the people shall weary themselves for very vanity? 14 For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.
 
Loyal
Hell is a real place brothers and sisters, it is eternal punishment dont let anyone fool you, read the bible and see for yourself !!


The truth is that the oldest and most reliable biblical manuscripts include Christ’s explicit statements about Hell. The gospel writers didn’t make up their Lord’s words in the gospels. They simply recorded them. And the hyper-careful scribes didn’t add them to the manuscripts, they simply copied them, word for word, from one to another.

The truth is that Jesus spoke more about Hell than anyone else in all of Scripture. (Because of its importance, I devoted a chapter of my book If God Is Good to the subject of Hell.) Jesus referred to Hell as a real place and described it in graphic terms (see Matthew 10:28; 13:40–42; Mark 9:43–48). He spoke of a fire that burns but doesn’t consume, an undying worm that eats away at the damned, and a lonely and foreboding darkness.

Christ says the unsaved “will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth” (Matthew 8:12). Jesus taught that an unbridgeable chasm separates the wicked in Hell from the righteous in paradise. The wicked suffer terribly, remain conscious, retain their desires and memories, long for relief, cannot find comfort, cannot leave their torment, and have no hope (see Luke 16:19–3 1).

Dismiss Hell and You Dismiss Jesus - Blog - Eternal Perspective Ministries
 
Member
David M

You:
Matthew 25:46
And these will go away into
eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Matthew 25:41

“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.



Me: Click on the links below:
Matthew 25:46 Interlinear: And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'
Strong's Greek: 166. αἰώνιος (aiónios) -- agelong, eternal

Strong's Concordance

aiónios: agelong, eternal
Original Word: αἰώνιος, ία, ιον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: aiónios
Phonetic Spelling: (ahee-o'-nee-os)
Definition: agelong, eternal
Usage: age-long, and therefore: practically eternal, unending; partaking of the character of that which lasts for an age, as contrasted with that which is brief and fleeting.

Me: So aiónios can mean eternal or long lasting.

I say that the first part pertains to “long lasting” or “age lasting”. You have to look at the other scriptures that seemingly contradict this and put them together so that they do not contradict. So show me how Matt 25:46, 41 reconciles with Rom 11:32, and Habk 2:13-14 and:

Matt 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

Me:
"baptized with fire" is quite a trail. This is the lake of fire.


1 Cor 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
 
Member
Ezk 37:1 The hand of the Lord was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the Lord, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones, 2 And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry. 3 And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord God, thou knowest. 4 Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the Lord. 5 Thus saith the Lord God unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live: 6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the Lord. 7 So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone. 8 And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them. 9 Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord God; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live. 10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army (me: Heb: multitude).
 

Top