• Welcome to Talk Jesus

    A true bible based, Christ centered community forums.

    Join over 10,000 worldwide members today

    Register Log In

  • Hi Guest!

    I've added a brand new "Night Mode" option to our site design. I'd greatly appreciate your vote on this poll here.

    To switch to night mode (or back to light/default theme) simply click on the "Site Menu" icon on top and on the dropdown choose "Switch to Night Mode" or "Switch to Light Mode"

    Thank you.

Did Jesus Have Two Natures?

Users who viewed this discussion (Total:12)

Loyal Member
Many believers say they are alive to both natures; the sin nature and the Righteous born again nature. Does scripture teach this?

Scriptures teach that Jesus came in a type of body as a sinful man without having received the Holy Ghost yet. Jesus was in a body of flesh as a new born baby in this world. Was it possible for Jesus to sin in His natural body and could He be affected by Satan (the worldly nature as we are) and possibly sin?

Did Jesus have two natures when He was born of Mary and of the Spirit in the flesh?

Was Jesus in the flesh and in the Spirit as born again believers are today; did he have two nature?
 
Active Member
There is the human nature under the influence of the enemy, which is toward self-reliance toward self-harm. The nature of humanity is selfish or evil, everything God/Jesus has done has been for us that we might know Him and understand what is going on. If we do a word search through the Bible we learn how much God wants us to understand that we may know peace for our troubled souls.
 
Loyal Member
Top Poster Of Month
Many believers say they are alive to both natures; the sin nature and the Righteous born again nature. Does scripture teach this?

Scriptures teach that Jesus came in a type of body as a sinful man without having received the Holy Ghost yet. Jesus was in a body of flesh as a new born baby in this world. Was it possible for Jesus to sin in His natural body and could He be affected by Satan (the worldly nature as we are) and possibly sin?

Did Jesus have two natures when He was born of Mary and of the Spirit in the flesh?

Was Jesus in the flesh and in the Spirit as born again believers are today; did he have two nature?
Jesus had the nature of God. We're supposed to put off our old natures and put on the nature of God. Ephesians 4; Colossians 3
 
Loyal Member
@Bendito,
That is 100% correct. Once a sinner becomes born again, God doesn't see the man after the flesh any longer, because they have been bought with the price of His Son's life. When God looks at His Covenant in Christ, he sees only His Son and anyone in His Son are automatically seen as physically pure from sin and morally blameless. It is all in how God views life.

1Jo 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because "as Jesus is, so are we in this world."

If Jesus is sanctified, believers are also. If Jesus died to sins once, believers have died to sin once. If Jesus rose from the dead, believers have rose from the dead. If Jesus circumcised sin in the flesh and body, believer's sin of his flesh has been also circumcised from the body (Col.2:11)
 
Loyal Member
NO it does not teach that, Jesus did not have a sin nature that you and I have, he was born through the Holly Spirit



THis is why he was born of a virgin to avoid the curse of mankind

Isaiah 7:14
Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Luke 1:35
And the angel answered her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy—the Son of God.
 
Loyal Member
Scriptures teach that Jesus came in a type of body as a sinful man


Jesus came in a sinless body

Although Jesus is fully human, He was not born with the same sinful nature that we are born with. He certainly was tempted in the same way we are, in that temptations were put before Him by Satan, yet He remained sinless because God is incapable of sinning. It is against His very nature (Matthew 4:1; Hebrews 2:18, 4:15; James 1:13). Sin is by definition a trespass of the Law. God created the Law, and the Law is by nature what God would or would not do; therefore, sin is anything that God would not do by His very nature.

Could Jesus have sinned? If He was not capable of sinning, how could He truly be able to 'sympathize with our weaknesses' (Hebrews 4:15)? If He could not sin, what was the point of the temptation?"

Answer: There are two sides to this interesting question. It is important to remember that this is not a question of whether Jesus sinned. Both sides agree, as the Bible clearly says, that Jesus did not sin (2 Corinthians 5:21; 1 Peter 2:22). The question is whether Jesus could have sinned. Those who hold to “impeccability” believe that Jesus could not have sinned. Those who hold to “peccability” believe that Jesus could have sinned, but did not. Which view is correct? The clear teaching of Scripture is that Jesus was impeccable—Jesus could not have sinned. If He could have sinned, He would still be able to sin today because He retains the same essence He did while living on earth. He is the God-Man and will forever remain so, having full deity and full humanity so united in one person as to be indivisible. To believe that Jesus could sin is to believe that God could sin. “For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him” (Colossians 1:19). Colossians 2:9 adds, “For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form.”

Although Jesus is fully human, He was not born with the same sinful nature that we are born with. He certainly was tempted in the same way we are, in that temptations were put before Him by Satan, yet He remained sinless because God is incapable of sinning. It is against His very nature (Matthew 4:1; Hebrews 2:18, 4:15; James 1:13). Sin is by definition a trespass of the Law. God created the Law, and the Law is by nature what God would or would not do; therefore, sin is anything that God would not do by His very nature.

To be tempted is not, in and of itself, sinful. A person could tempt you with something you have no desire to do, such as committing murder or participating in sexual perversions. You probably have no desire whatsoever to take part in these actions, but you were still tempted because someone placed the possibility before you. There are at least two definitions for the word “tempted”:

1) To have a sinful proposition suggested to you by someone or something outside yourself or by your own sin nature.

2) To consider actually participating in a sinful act and the possible pleasures and consequences of such an act to the degree that the act is already taking place in your mind.

The first definition does not describe a sinful act/thought; the second does. When you dwell upon a sinful act and consider how you might be able to bring it to pass, you have crossed the line of sin. Jesus was tempted in the fashion of definition one except that He was never tempted by a sin nature because it did not exist within Him. Satan proposed certain sinful acts to Jesus, but He had no inner desire to participate in the sin. Therefore, He was tempted like we are but remained sinless.

Those who hold to peccability believe that, if Jesus could not have sinned, He could not have truly experienced temptation, and therefore could not truly empathize with our struggles and temptations against sin. We have to remember that one does not have to experience something in order to understand it. God knows everything about everything. While God has never had the desire to sin, and has most definitely never sinned, God knows and understands what sin is. God knows and understands what it is like to be tempted. Jesus can empathize with our temptations because He knows, not because He has “experienced” all the same things we have.

Jesus knows what it is like to be tempted, but He does not know what it is like to sin. This does not prevent Him from assisting us. We are tempted with sins that are common to man (1 Corinthians 10:13). These sins generally can be boiled down to three different types: “the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh, and the pride of life” (1 John 2:16 NKJV). Examine the temptation and sin of Eve, as well as the temptation of Jesus, and you will find that the temptations for each came from these three categories. Jesus was tempted in every way and in every area that we are, but remained perfectly holy. Although our corrupt natures will have the inner desire to participate in some sins, we have the ability, through Christ, to overcome sin because we are no longer slaves to sin but rather slaves of God (Romans 6, especially verses 2 and 16-22).

Could Jesus have sinned (peccability or impeccability)?
 
Loyal Member
@Dave,

You said: NO it does not teach that, Jesus did not have a sin nature that you and I have, he was born through the Holly Spirit

Question for you Dave, “were you born through the Holy Spirit? Was Jesus alive to both natures? Can any man be alive to both natures according to scripture? If so where does it teach that concept?

Jesus was the second Adam. Jesus’ “will” was no different than the will of Adam. Adam was created in God’s image and likeness. Adam was created in God’s very nature and the perfection of Jesus Christ yet He sinned. The difference between Jesus and Adam was, Jesus could not be deceived, but He could be tempted. Adam could not be tempted but he could be deceived.

A man is tempted because the devil and his lust is in the body of flesh. Jesus was in this type of flesh.

The same sin nature that tempts us is the same sin nature that was in Christ's flesh.

Temptation is emotional, deception is intellectual. Jesus felt both in the flesh

Temptation is an agitation of the mind which is felt throughout the body. Jesus was tempted to the point where it was as if He sweat drops of blood.
 
Loyal Member
@regibassman57 Hey brother hope all is well,

let make sure we are talking of the same thing here . Jesus was not like us because he was born of a virgin do you agree with that?? do you understand why he was born of a virgin?

you agree we are borned with a sin nature and that is why we have to be born again right?
 
Loyal Member
@Dave,

Yes Dave all is well; I appreciate that.

When I get into these types of discussions I’m not as spiritually intense; because life is not on the line; but I do like these discussions. I’m still in the “third heaven” over what you wrote.

I believe the body of Jesus was not a sinful body born in sin, because if Christ's body was sinful Jesus could not be the holy sacrifice. Though Jesus was not in a sinful body, meaning He didn’t inherit a body that God accounted the sin of Adam to, as the rest of man, Jesus did have a body from birth exactly like our; but Jesus never sinned. If Adam could sin, then Jesus could sin. As you said, God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself and God was manifested in the flesh. But God is also a “Just” God and He had to present Christ’s body capable of failing. Jesus could not fail because Jehovah God was His Father. God also said Jesus shall not fail.

Isa 42:4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.

God told man to raise up a child in the way they should go and when they are old they shall not depart (Pro. 22:6). If God told us how to raise a child, we know He knows how to raise a son. Jesus in the hand of a natural man could have fail, but in the hands of Jehovah God He could not and would not fail. Not because of His body, but because of who was teaching Him to walk in Righteousness.
 
Active Member
.
Most Christians readily attest their belief that Jesus Christ is fully God and fully Man; but in reality they only believe he's fully God, or at best; a divine man rather than a genuine man.
_
 
Loyal Member
Many believers say they are alive to both natures; the sin nature and the Righteous born again nature. Does scripture teach this?

Scriptures teach that Jesus came in a type of body as a sinful man without having received the Holy Ghost yet. Jesus was in a body of flesh as a new born baby in this world. Was it possible for Jesus to sin in His natural body and could He be affected by Satan (the worldly nature as we are) and possibly sin?

Did Jesus have two natures when He was born of Mary and of the Spirit in the flesh?

Was Jesus in the flesh and in the Spirit as born again believers are today; did he have two nature?
No, but Jesus was the Son of Man as well as the Son of God at His incarnation.

Jesus was without sin since His incarnation up until the cross when He took our sins upon Himself to pay the penalty for our sins which was death

FYI Jesus had existed before His incarnation as the God men have seen in the O.T. More on that with scripture at this thread at the link below if interested.

Jesus The God That Men Had Seen in the O.T.

But essentially for while He was on earth, Jesus was the Son of Man and the Son of God since His incarnation, until His resurrection and ascension, by Whom He is able to bring us to God by His righteousness alone by Him dwelling in us always.
 
Loyal Member
JesusIs4Me,
What did I say that is in opposition of what you’ve written? I believe that God was manifest in the flesh (1Ti. 3:16). I know Jesus was without sin at birth as well as an adult.
 
Loyal Member
JesusIs4Me,
What did I say that is in opposition of what you’ve written? I believe that God was manifest in the flesh (1Ti. 3:16). I know Jesus was without sin at birth as well as an adult.
Sorry if I was not clear, brother. You had asked three questions for the following comment;

"Was it possible for Jesus to sin in His natural body and could He be affected by Satan (the worldly nature as we are) and possibly sin?"

I would say that since He was tempted, it was possible for Him to sin but He did not.

And then again...

"Did Jesus have two natures when He was born of Mary and of the Spirit in the flesh?"

For which I had replied that He was the Son of Man as well as the Son of God; that is 2 nature... but without the sin nature, of course for Him being the Son of Man. It just seems like clarity was needed since He did have two nature but not in what you were talking about.

And finally,

"Was Jesus in the flesh and in the Spirit as born again believers are today; did he have two nature?"

In that sense, because we are tempted as Jesus was but HE did not sin, that does not mean we will not sin. That is why we have been warned to be on guard like Jesus had been so that with His help with the scripture we can rebuke temptations.

James 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him. 13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. 16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.

So because we can err and be tempted and be drawn away to commit sin, is why we are to rely on Him as our Good Shepherd all the time to discern good and evil in these latter days because keeping the faith in Jesus Christ is the good fight.

So I was not really opposing you but not totally agreeing with you 100 % and so.. clarity is needed on my part as well as on your part since Jesus did have 2 nature but He was without sin; and because He can be tempted to sin in that flesh as we are still in that flesh, then that is why we are glad He is in us to help us resist the devil and rebuke every wicked thought with scripture or a prayer to Jesus in keeping it from luring us away to commit sin. When He has made us perfect at the pre great trib rapture event, then we will be like Him and sin will never come in between us & God ever again.
 
Loyal Member
@JesusIs4Me,

You said: I would say that since He was tempted, it was possible for Him to sin but He did not.
And then again...

That is correct; Jesus was tempted and did not sin. But He could not sin because God would not allow Him to sin. God raised Jesus from a child and He promised in scripture, Jesus would not fail (sin).

God said of Jesus:

Isa 42:4 He shall not fail” nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.

"Did Jesus have two natures when He was born of Mary and of the Spirit in the flesh?"

You said: For which I had replied that He was the Son of Man as well as the Son of God; that is 2nature... but without the sin nature, of course for Him being the Son of Man. It just seems like clarity was needed since He did have two nature but not in what you were talking about.

Jesus was not “alive” to “two natures” only one. Jesus was “in” the world but not “of” the world. Jesus was spiritually “dead” to the sin nature though He was in a fleshly body which He was able to be tempted by Satan. Satan had the right to affect and agitate Jesus’ fleshly mind emotionally and cause Him to feel everything that we feel in our times of trials and tribulations. Jesus felt angry, sad, frustrated and lustful, but he never sinned. Scriptures teach every man is tempted when he is drawn away of his own lust and enticed; Jesus was tempted with lust but never sinned.

Let me give you an example: Just because a sinner can do the exact same act of righteousness as a believer, does not make him righteous. Just because a believer does an unrighteous act does not make him a sinner. In Adam everyman was a sinner, not because of his actions, but because of his nature. Before sinners sinned (after Adam) and committed any act of sin, they were a sinner. After a sinner comes to Jesus, before he commits any act of Righteousness, he is Righteous. So, a man born into this world is a sinner not because of his action, and a man born into Christ is not Righteous because of his actions (works of Righteousness) but because of God’s imputation of Righteousness unto him and God's imputation of sin to the sinner. So when Titus 3:5 says, it's not by works of Righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us. He's talking about salvation from the nature of sin. Ephesians says, we are saved by Grace, not by our work (Eph. 2:8, 9). This is from sin.

This next verse shows my example: A sinner is free from Righteousness and a Righteous person is free from sin.

Rom 6:20 For when you were the servants of sin, you were free from righteousness.

Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, you became the servants of righteousness.

This is talking about the nature of sin and the nature of Righteousness. If you are in the nature of sin, you sin. If you are in the nature of Righteousness you cannot sin. A man is Righteous because of imputation of Righteousness and a man is a sinner because of imputation of sin. Both are the decision of God to impute sin or to impute Righteousness.
 
Loyal Member
@JesusIs4Me,

You said: I would say that since He was tempted, it was possible for Him to sin but He did not.
And then again...

That is correct; Jesus was tempted and did not sin. But He could not sin because God would not allow Him to sin. God raised Jesus from a child and He promised in scripture, Jesus would not fail (sin).

God said of Jesus:

Isa 42:4 He shall not fail” nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.

"Did Jesus have two natures when He was born of Mary and of the Spirit in the flesh?"

You said: For which I had replied that He was the Son of Man as well as the Son of God; that is 2nature... but without the sin nature, of course for Him being the Son of Man. It just seems like clarity was needed since He did have two nature but not in what you were talking about.

Jesus was not “alive” to “two natures” only one. Jesus was “in” the world but not “of” the world. Jesus was spiritually “dead” to the sin nature though He was in a fleshly body which He was able to be tempted by Satan. Satan had the right to affect and agitate Jesus’ fleshly mind emotionally and cause Him to feel everything that we feel in our times of trials and tribulations. Jesus felt angry, sad, frustrated and lustful, but he never sinned. Scriptures teach every man is tempted when he is drawn away of his own lust and enticed; Jesus was tempted with lust but never sinned.

Let me give you an example: Just because a sinner can do the exact same act of righteousness as a believer, does not make him righteous. Just because a believer does an unrighteous act does not make him a sinner. In Adam everyman was a sinner, not because of his actions, but because of his nature. Before sinners sinned (after Adam) and committed any act of sin, they were a sinner. After a sinner comes to Jesus, before he commits any act of Righteousness, he is Righteous. So, a man born into this world is a sinner not because of his action, and a man born into Christ is not Righteous because of his actions (works of Righteousness) but because of God’s imputation of Righteousness unto him and God's imputation of sin to the sinner. So when Titus 3:5 says, it's not by works of Righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us. He's talking about salvation from the nature of sin. Ephesians says, we are saved by Grace, not by our work (Eph. 2:8, 9). This is from sin.

This next verse shows my example: A sinner is free from Righteousness and a Righteous person is free from sin.

Rom 6:20 For when you were the servants of sin, you were free from righteousness.

Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, you became the servants of righteousness.

This is talking about the nature of sin and the nature of Righteousness. If you are in the nature of sin, you sin. If you are in the nature of Righteousness you cannot sin. A man is Righteous because of imputation of Righteousness and a man is a sinner because of imputation of sin. Both are the decision of God to impute sin or to impute Righteousness.
We are no longer under sin's dominion power, BUT we are still warned not to sow to the flesh les we reap corruption; and that is why saved believers are still able to sin for why we need to rely on Him all the time, not to sin, but if and when we do sin, He is faithful and just to forgive us of our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. We really live this reconciled relationship with God through Jesus Christ and by the grace of God we have been saved by, is the same grace of God we live by in running that race in a life of repentance in laying aside every weight & sin by looking to Jesus Christ to help us to do it.
 
Loyal Member
@JesusIs4Me,

What is sin’s dominion power? If you are not under sin’s dominion and power how can you sin? If you sin you “ARE” under Satan’s dominion because you are in his nature. The only way a man can sin is if you are in the nature of sin.

Reaping corruption has nothing to do with sin. Those that sin are already condemned because Jesus condemned sin and every man that sins. What you are basically saying is you have not been purged, sanctified and redeemed from sin once for all time as scriptures teach.

It appears you believe that Jesus’ sacrifice accomplished the same affect on sin as the blood of bulls and goat. The blood of bulls and goats could not take away sins and the blood of Jesus Christ could not take away sins; because in both cases sacrifices were made, and after the offering was made, the believers continued to sin whether they wanted to or not.

Israel had a type of mercy when God gave them the sacrifices for sin. When Israel sinned, they had to confess their sins and offer a sacrifice for that sin. You are saying when a believer commits a sin, they are to confess that sin and the only different is you rely on the sacrifice of Jesus Christ; and do not have to offer a sacrifice as Israel did.
 
Loyal Member
@JesusIs4Me,

What is sin’s dominion power? If you are not under sin’s dominion and power how can you sin? If you sin you “ARE” under Satan’s dominion because you are in his nature. The only way a man can sin is if you are in the nature of sin.
There are too many verses that testify of our need for His blood to cleanse us from all unrighteousness when we sin as saved believers; 1 John 1:3-10 KJV I will not deny His promise for those that sin because they are not to give up, but go to Him for forgiveness and trust Him to help them lay aside every weight & sin so they can walk in the light with the Father & the Son: that race is still on, brother. Are you running it or denying your need of Him in running it?

Look at it this way; if a saved believer sin, should he give up? Should he quit following Jesus? Then think about what you are implying that a believer can never sin or else he is not what? Not really saved? What a heart breaker that is to say.

Reaping corruption has nothing to do with sin. Those that sin are already condemned because Jesus condemned sin and every man that sins. What you are basically saying is you have not been purged, sanctified and redeemed from sin once for all time as scriptures teach.
Reaping corruption as the wages of sin is death is why the church at Thyatira will be judged in Revelation 2:18-25 KJV

It appears you believe that Jesus’ sacrifice accomplished the same affect on sin as the blood of bulls and goat. The blood of bulls and goats could not take away sins and the blood of Jesus Christ could not take away sins; because in both cases sacrifices were made, and after the offering was made, the believers continued to sin whether they wanted to or not.
I believe Jesus has given me the remission of sins that are past that laid down the foundation for which I am to take heed what I build on. I can never lose my salvation; the Holy Spirit, nor Jesus, nor the Father will ever leave me but I need the Son's help to lay aside every weight & sin that comes my way in living that reconciled reationship with God thru Jesus Christ.

Did you know that masturbation is a form of uncleanness that needs to be repented of? When was the last time anyone spoke about that to adolescent entering puberty? My former church said that it was okay, one of the counselors at Bill Rudge's Ministry said it was okay, my Sunday school teacher and youth group leader said indirectly about it saying it was okay as long as we think good thoughts. My former church had compromised with social values and so guess who had to come to my rescue? The Lord Jesus Christ in letting me know in His words that I needed His help to repent. Thing is, He had to set me free from trying to do it by keeping my commitment in making Him Lord of my life in resting in Him and relying on Him all the time for keeping me from my sins and other sins as well, like the words of my mouth.

So not every saved believer is an automatic mature disciple in His words in following Him. He prunes us in our walk with Him to bear more fruit. John 15:2 KJV I cannot do anything good without Him John 15:5 KJV

I do not like having been a dog that returns to its vomit but that was what I was...as a religious Christian... and I can dwell on the past or be thankful to Him that He is keeping me from all my sins as I rest in Him for that hope tomorrow until He brings me Home perfect when you & I can never sin ever again.

Israel had a type of mercy when God gave them the sacrifices for sin. When Israel sinned, they had to confess their sins and offer a sacrifice for that sin. You are saying when a believer commits a sin, they are to confess that sin and the only different is you rely on the sacrifice of Jesus Christ; and do not have to offer a sacrifice as Israel did.
I can only hope the Lord will help you to see that I do not deny what Christ has done in laying that foundation that can never be removed, but how you are applying that to mean I can never sin again is not the truth as per 1 John 1:3-10 KJV
 
Loyal Member
@JesusIs4Me,
I would like to ask you… show me in the first chapter of 1John that he is writing to saved Jews. If you can prove this, your point will be understood much better.

As long as Jesus is in me I can never deny him. If I do not understand this walk after reading His word He gives me the understanding. The race is endurance in affliction and believing by faith that I can do all that Jesus has told me.

I’m pretty sure those are your thoughts below not mine. I don’t doubt or condemn.

You said: Look at it this way; if a saved believer sin, should he give up? Should he quit following Jesus? Then think about what you are implying that a believer can never sin or else he is not what? Not really saved? What a heart breaker that is to say.

Revelation 2:18-25 has nothing to do with a believer’s sin. Yes, every man will be judged but not for sin.

You received remission of sins when you were redeemed. When you were redeemed you were purged of your sins and forgiven “eternally” from your sins. How can you ask for forgiveness for something you have already been eternally forgiven from?

Heb 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by Jesus' own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. You cannot be redeemed without being forgiven of sins. The separation from God was because of sin.


If I was counseling a youth and that was the subject at hand I would discuss it, but I don’t think it’s necessary at this time.
No man has life without Christ’s direction. But if you look at yourself in the flesh, you are not led by the Spirit of Christ. If you sin, you are the servant of sin. As long as you believe you sin, you will sin because of your sin consciousness. If you are Righteous “in” Christ how can you sin?

1Jo 3:6 Whosoever abides in Christ sins not: whosoever sins hath not seen him, neither known him.

This scripture is not teaching practice or habitually sins; it’s simply saying you can’t sin because you are in Christ body that has no sin in it. You have been bought with a price so you cannot leave Christ's body and sin. It's how God sees you in Christ; and He sees you as Righteous 24/7. God never sees you as unrighteous.

1Jo 3:5 And you know that Jesus was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

If you sin, you are denying Christ took away your sins and you are saying you are sinning in the body of Christ.

 
Loyal Member
@JesusIs4Me,
I would like to ask you… show me in the first chapter of 1John that he is writing to saved Jews. If you can prove this, your point will be understood much better.
Why would John be writing to unsaved Jews? The epistle can only be received and read by saved believers. There is no known practice of writing to unsaved Jews that is in the New Testament to be read by unsaved Jews. They would not even bother to receive it.

1 John 1:3-10 refers to walking in fellowship with the Father & the Son that can only apply and appeal to saved believers. There is no fellowship in walking with the Son when unsaved Jews reject Him, Therefore do read that as directed to you.

The apostle John was writing to saved believers that believed that when they commit sin, it is no longer sin to them. If you read that epistle, John is reproving them that sin is still sin for why we are to walk in the light with Him and not in darkness. He emphasize that if any one try to say they have not sinned when they are walking in darkness, then they are lying to themselves and to others as well as to God. He argues the point so much that sin is still a sin to believers that he cites in the next chapter that we are not to sin, but if we do sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, Whom happens to be the Lord Jesus Christ at that throne of grace.

You seem to seeing unfruitful works as not sins, but whether you see them as trespasses or debts, you are still asking for forgiveness, are you not?

What you talk about as the remission of sins, for past present and future is referring to only salvation that we can never lose; that foundation which was laid by Jesus Christ. Sin can never separate us from the love of God now, but it is still sin in need of us relying on Jesus Christ as the author & finisher of our faith to help us lay aside every weight & sin in running that race. The fact that we are actually laying sin aside proves we are have power in laying sin aside from repeating it habitually.... but there is forgiveness and not just help for laying it aside.

James had written to the brethren meaning fellow Christians, and he still regard believers sinning as possible for why he warned them not to err.

James 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him. 13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. 16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.

That crown is achieved by faith in Him to help us lay aside every weight & sin in running that race and the cause of losing the reward of that crown should be obvious, but as they become castaway, that foundation and His seal remains on those left behind at the pre great trib rapture event when the Bridegroom comes to receive those abiding in Him as His disciples.

James even state the reality when a believer restores the erring believer.

James 5:19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; 20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

So sin is still sin, whether you call them unfruitful works, trespasses, or debts, because we need to ask for forgiveness for those "sins", but the remission of sins that comes with that foundation being laid as we are a new creature in Christ with the promise of the forever indwelling Holy Ghost at our salvation is really what you are talking about but that does not mean sin ceases to be sin to a believer that he need not ask forgiveness for in their walk with Jesus.

As long as Jesus is in me I can never deny him. If I do not understand this walk after reading His word He gives me the understanding. The race is endurance in affliction and believing by faith that I can do all that Jesus has told me.

I’m pretty sure those are your thoughts below not mine. I don’t doubt or condemn.

You said: Look at it this way; if a saved believer sin, should he give up? Should he quit following Jesus? Then think about what you are implying that a believer can never sin or else he is not what? Not really saved? What a heart breaker that is to say.

Revelation 2:18-25 has nothing to do with a believer’s sin. Yes, every man will be judged but not for sin.
One could reason that to forgive us of our trespass or our debt is the reason why Jesus did not say sin in that daily prayer to the Father that He had taught to His disciples, but yet we are taught to pray asking for forgiveness.

You received remission of sins when you were redeemed. When you were redeemed you were purged of your sins and forgiven “eternally” from your sins. How can you ask for forgiveness for something you have already been eternally forgiven from?

Heb 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by Jesus' own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. You cannot be redeemed without being forgiven of sins. The separation from God was because of sin.

If I was counseling a youth and that was the subject at hand I would discuss it, but I don’t think it’s necessary at this time.
No man has life without Christ’s direction. But if you look at yourself in the flesh, you are not led by the Spirit of Christ. If you sin, you are the servant of sin. As long as you believe you sin, you will sin because of your sin consciousness. If you are Righteous “in” Christ how can you sin?

1Jo 3:6 Whosoever abides in Christ sins not: whosoever sins hath not seen him, neither known him.

This scripture is not teaching practice or habitually sins; it’s simply saying you can’t sin because you are in Christ body that has no sin in it. You have been bought with a price so you cannot leave Christ's body and sin. It's how God sees you in Christ; and He sees you as Righteous 24/7. God never sees you as unrighteous.

1Jo 3:5 And you know that Jesus was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

If you sin, you are denying Christ took away your sins and you are saying you are sinning in the body of Christ.
In any relationship of yours, I am sure you have apologized to people you love at various times; that is also to be true with our reconciled relationship with Jesus Christ; that remisson of sins received at our salvation with the promise of the Holy Ghost forever reconciles us to God thru Jesus Christ BUT although no sin can separate us from God any more, while in his fallible flesh, we will find the need to ask for forgiveness for our sins in our walk with the Lord until suhc time He brings us Home where His crowning achievements on us will be glorified in Heaven testifying that we will never sin against the Lord again because of Him finishing that race.
 
Loyal Member
@JesusIs4Me,
You said: Why would John be writing to unsaved Jews? The epistle can only be received and read by saved believers. There is no known practice of writing to unsaved Jews that is in the New Testament to be read by unsaved Jews. They would not even bother to receive it.

1Jo 1:2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and show unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us:wink:

1Jo 1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

1Jo 1:4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.

The audience here did not know about the things of eternal life, that‘s what John was writing to them about. This is why John said, we “DECLARE” unto you what we have seen and heard and our fellowship is with the Father and the Son. This audience didn’t have that fellowship because they didn’t know Jesus because they were not saved. They didn’t have fellowship with John who was a Christian; if they did, there would be no need for John to declared and show unto them eternal life. These people didn’t have joy because they didn’t know Jesus.

1Jo 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

John begins to tell this audience about the gospel of Christ.
 

Similar threads

Top