KingJ
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Yes of course, but lets not derail this thread. I will create a new thread to make my case.
Debunking Calvinism
- Thread starter KingJ
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Yes of course, but lets not derail this thread. I will create a new thread to make my case.
KingJ
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Twistie
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Ya i dont ask the dead things i go to the Living One.. Thats really absurd tho that one who claims to follow the Living God would go ask a dead thing..but to each their own i presume thats why free will exist ey?!
(@_@)
KingJ
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BF, you absolutely do need to produce a verse. Here's why:
Scripture repeatedly says we are justified by our faith!
- Rom 3:22 — Righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe
- Rom 3:24 — Being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus
- Rom 3:26 — The justifier of him which believeth in Jesus
- Rom 3:28 — A man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law
- Rom 3:30 — God shall justify the circumcision by faith and uncircumcision through faith
- Rom 4:3 — Abraham believed God and it was counted unto him for righteousness
- Rom 4:5 — His faith is counted for righteousness
- Rom 4:9 — Faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness
- Rom 4:11 — The righteousness of faith
- Rom 4:13 — The promise was through the righteousness of faith
- Rom 4:16 — The promise is of faith that it might be by grace
- Rom 5:1 — Being justified by faith we have peace with God
- Rom 9:30 — The Gentiles attained to righteousness which is of faith
- Rom 9:32 — They sought it not by faith but as it were by works
- Rom 10:4 — Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth
- Rom 10:9 — If thou shalt believe in thine heart thou shalt be saved
- Rom 10:10 — With the heart man believeth unto righteousness
- Rom 10:11 — Whosoever believeth on Him shall not be ashamed
- Rom 10:13 — Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved
- Gal 2:16 — A man is not justified by works but by the faith of Jesus Christ
- Gal 2:16 — We have believed in Jesus Christ that we might be justified by faith
- Gal 2:16 — By the faith of Christ shall no flesh be justified
- Gal 2:20 — The life which I now live I live by the faith of the Son of God
- Gal 3:2 — Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law or by the hearing of faith?
- Gal 3:5 — He that ministereth the Spirit does so by the hearing of faith
- Gal 3:6 — Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness
- Gal 3:7 — They which are of faith are the children of Abraham
- Gal 3:8 — God would justify the heathen through faith
- Gal 3:9 — They which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham
- Gal 3:11 — The just shall live by faith
- Gal 3:14 — The blessing of Abraham comes on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ
- Gal 3:22 — The promise by faith of Jesus Christ is given to them that believe
- Gal 3:24 — The law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ that we might be justified by faith
- Gal 3:26 — Ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus
- Eph 2:8 — By grace are ye saved through faith
- Phil 3:9 — The righteousness which is through the faith of Christ
- Heb 10:38 — The just shall live by faith
- Heb 11:4 — Abel obtained witness that he was righteous
- Heb 11:6 — Without faith it is impossible to please Him
- Heb 11:7 — Noah became heir of the righteousness which is by faith
- Heb 11:8 — Abraham obeyed by faith
- Heb 11:13 — These all died in faith
- Heb 11:31 — Rahab perished not with them that believed not
- Jas 2:23 — Abraham believed God and it was imputed unto him for righteousness
- Jas 2:24 — Ye see then how that by works a man is justified and not by faith only
- Jas 2:26 — Faith without works is dead
- Acts 13:39 — By Him all that believe are justified from all things
- Acts 10:43 — Through His name whosoever believeth in Him shall receive remission of sins
- Acts 16:31 — Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved
- John 3:16 — Whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life
You are not defending a doctrine that is plainly stated in Scripture. You are proposing a specific doctrinal claim: that a person is legally justified before they believe and while they are still an unbeliever.
That is not my claim. It is yours.
If I claimed that people are justified ten years after faith or justified before Christ died you would rightly demand a verse. Why? Because the person making the positive doctrinal assertion bears the burden of proving it from Scripture.
You cannot simply say "the total testimony of Scripture" when the very point under debate is whether your conclusion is actually taught by Scripture.
Not a chain of inferences.
Not a theological deduction.
Not an interpretation that requires five other doctrines to be true first.
An actual passage teaching that a person is legally justified before believing.
Until you can produce that passage your doctrine remains an inference not a biblical teaching.
An inference that portrays God as monstrously evil. 10/10 evil.
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Calvinism portrays God as monstrously evil because it teaches that He favours a select few while withholding saving grace from the rest. Scripture is crystal clear that God is no respecter of persons.
Deut 4:2, Deut 13:1–5, Deut 18:20–22, Josh 1:7, Prov 30:5–6, Isa 8:20, Jer 23:16, Jer 23:25–32, Ezek 13:1–16, Matt 7:15–20, Matt 15:9, Matt 24:11, Matt 24:24, Mark 7:7–13, Acts 20:28–31, Rom 16:17–18, 2 Cor 2:17, 2 Cor 4:2, 2 Cor 11:13–15, Gal 1:6–9, Eph 4:14, Phil 3:2, Col 2:8, 1 Tim 1:3–7, 1 Tim 4:1–3, 1 Tim 6:3–5, 2 Tim 2:15–18, 2 Tim 3:13–17, 2 Tim 4:2–4, Titus 1:9–16, Heb 13:9, James 3:1, 2 Pet 2:1–3, 2 Pet 2:12–22, 1 John 2:18–27, 1 John 4:1–6, 2 John 7–11, Jude 3–4, Jude 12–19, Rev 2:2, Rev 2:14–16, Rev 2:20–24, Rev 3:9, Rev 22:18–19
The Terror of Standing Before God as a False Teacher
Brightfame52
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KingJ, copy-pasting 50 verses that contain the word "faith" does not change the fact that you are fundamentally confusing the legal acquisition of a verdict at the cross with the experiential reception of that verdict in the conscience.
You shout that I cannot produce a single verse explicitly stating that God justifies a person prior to them having faith. You must have completely missed the verse that you yourself copy-pasted onto your own list. Let’s read it:
Look at the absolute judicial precision of the Holy Spirit's grammar.
- Who does God justify? He justifies the ungodly (asebēs—the profane, wicked, faithless rebel).
- Judicially, a court verdict can only be passed on a person in the legal state they are currently in. God passes a legal verdict of "Justified" upon the elect while they are characteristically ungodly and without faith.
- If God waited until they believed to pass the legal verdict, Paul would have written that God "justifieth the faithful believer." He didn't. God justifies the ungodly. Faith is the vital gift given to that ungodly person so they can look back at the cross and discover the shocking verdict that was already passed upon them.
1. Neutralizing Your 50 Verses
You claim these verses prove justification takes place after we have faith. No, they prove that our conscious possession, peace, and enjoyment of justification take place through faith.
Let's look at the historic event that anchors the legal timeline:
The resurrection of Jesus Christ happened in 33 AD. Why was He raised? Paul explicitly says He was raised for our justification. The resurrection was the Supreme Court of Heaven passing the public verdict of "Not Guilty" over the entire body of the elect because Christ successfully paid their debt. If our justification was achieved by His resurrection 2,000 years ago, then the legal verdict was finalized long before you or I ever existed to believe.
You are confusing the reading of a legal will (faith) with the death of the Father that actually secured the inheritance (the cross). The reading of the will gives you conscious possession, but it didn't create your legal right to the money. The death did.
2. The Real "10/10 Evil": Your System Charges God with Injustice
You call my doctrine "10/10 evil" because you are panicking under the weight of your own internal contradictions. Let’s look at the absolute theological horror of your position:
You admit that Christ successfully bore the iniquities of the elect at Calvary and that the Father was "satisfied" (Isa 53:11). Yet, you claim that five minutes before faith, those same elect people are legally condemned objects of wrath.
Think about what you are charging God with. If Christ paid the debt in full in 33 AD, and yet God still holds a legal charge of condemnation over the elect person's head until they believe, then God is demanding two payments for one debt. He takes payment from Christ, declares Himself satisfied, and yet keeps the legal ledger open to condemn the sinner. That turns the Judge of all the earth into an unjust extortioner who enforces double jeopardy.
3. The Unanswered Challenge
You dropped 50 verses because you completely dodged the structural collapse your timeline causes in Romans 5:10:
You already admitted to me on this thread: “Yes. We were reconciled while enemies.”
Answer the text, KingJ, and stop hiding behind copy-pasted lists. How can an individual be legally reconciled to God by the death of His Son (which means the judicial removal of legal hostility), while simultaneously being legally condemned under His active wrath five minutes before faith?
To separate reconciliation from justification chronologically is to invent a legal fiction. My system honors the perfect justice of God—proving that when Christ paid the debt, the elect were legally cleared once and for all. Your system portrays a fragile, double-charging deity who holds paid-for sins against His own elect.
God justifieth the ungodly (Romans 4:5). Deal with the grammar of the text.
Brightfame52
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KingJ, Your List Does Not Establish Your Chronology
KingJ, I appreciate the effort you have made to gather these passages. But your list does not establish the conclusion you are drawing from them.I agree with you that Scripture repeatedly teaches that believers are justified by faith, that righteousness is received through faith, and that faith is the appointed means by which God's people come to know and apprehend the salvation of Christ.
I am not denying any of that.
The question is what you think those passages prove beyond that.
You repeatedly move from:
to:
That second proposition is precisely what you have not established.
1. “By faith” does not automatically mean “Christ's legal work became effective by faith”
Consider Romans 3:24:And Romans 5:9:
Paul identifies the ground of justification as Christ's redemption and blood.
So I am asking you to distinguish between the ground of justification and the means by which the justified sinner comes to apprehend and enjoy that justification.
Faith does not add anything to Christ's righteousness. Faith does not complete His obedience. Faith does not make His blood efficacious.
Christ's blood justifies.
Christ's obedience makes many righteous.
Christ bears their iniquities.
Faith receives and rests upon what Christ has accomplished.
2. Your own list contains Romans 4:5
You cite:Notice exactly what Paul says.
He does not say “him that justifieth the believer.”
He says:
The Greek is:
—“the One who justifies the ungodly.”
And what does the believer believe?
He believes on Him that justifieth the ungodly.
Faith therefore is not faith in faith. It is faith in God as the Justifier of the ungodly.
The believer is not saying, “My believing caused God to justify me.”
He is believing the divine testimony concerning the God who justifies the ungodly.
3. “His faith is counted for righteousness” does not make faith itself the righteousness
Romans 4:6 immediately speaks of:The righteousness being imputed is not the sinner's own righteousness, nor the merit of his believing.
It is the righteousness of Christ.
Faith is therefore not the legal righteousness that satisfies God's justice. Faith apprehends and rests upon the righteousness God provides in Christ.
That is why Paul can speak of:
The righteousness is of God.
4. So what do your fifty passages actually prove?
They prove that faith has a vital and experiential relationship to justification.I agree.
They establish that believers are justified by faith, that righteousness is received through faith, and that faith is God's appointed means by which His people come to consciously apprehend and enjoy Christ's salvation.
But they do not, merely by saying “by faith” or “through faith,” prove this additional proposition:
That is the very proposition under dispute.
You have established faith's role.
You have not established faith as the trigger that makes Christ's finished work legally effective.
5. Now compare your list with the passages you keep avoiding
Isaiah 53:11:The Servant justifies the many by bearing their iniquities.
Romans 5:9:
Paul directly connects justification with Christ's blood.
Romans 5:19:
Christ's obedience actually makes many righteous.
Romans 4:25:
His death dealt with the offenses, and His resurrection testifies to the completed and accepted work of Christ.
2 Corinthians 5:21:
That is substitution and imputed righteousness.
These passages are not saying Christ merely made justification possible.
They describe what Christ actually accomplished for those whom He represented.
6. This is the question you still have to answer
I am not denying justification by faith.I am distinguishing legal accomplishment from vital apprehension.
The elect are not born regenerated. They are not born believing. They are sinners by nature.
But their legal righteousness does not originate in their later act of believing.
Christ bore their sins.
Christ fulfilled righteousness for them.
Christ shed His blood for them.
Christ was raised for their justification.
The Holy Spirit subsequently regenerates them and gives them faith, whereby they come to believe, apprehend, and enjoy the salvation Christ accomplished.
So, KingJ, I will gladly acknowledge every passage on your list that teaches justification by faith.
But now answer the other side of the equation:
Did Christ actually justify those whose iniquities He bore, or did He merely make them justifiable until they believed?
If you say the latter, then show me the passage that says faith activates, completes, or makes legally effective the justification accomplished by Christ's blood.
Because Scripture says:
And:
And:
I believe we should let those texts speak for themselves.
This is not about denying justification by faith. It is about refusing to make man's believing the legal completion of Christ's finished work.
Faith does not create the legal verdict. Faith believes the God who justifies the ungodly. Faith does not supply the righteousness. Faith apprehends the righteousness God has provided in Christ. Faith does not make Christ's blood efficacious. Faith rests upon the efficacy of Christ's blood.
That is the distinction I am asking you to address from Scripture.
KingJ
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Your response misrepresents the 50 passages.
I did not simply copy 50 verses containing the word “faith.” They all explicitly connect faith with justification or righteousness:
“justified by faith” — Rom 5:1
“justified by faith” — Gal 2:16
“justified by faith” — Gal 3:24
“all that believe are justified” — Acts 13:39
“God would justify the heathen through faith” — Gal 3:8
Your distinction between “legal acquisition” and “experiential reception” is your theological framework. It is not a passage of Scripture.
That is precisely the point you continue to avoid.
You have not found the verse. You have simply inserted “before faith” into Romans 4:5.
The passage says:
“To him that worketh not but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly his faith is counted for righteousness.”
Notice what you conveniently leave out:
“believeth on him”
“his faith is counted for righteousness”
The passage does NOT say:
“God justifies the ungodly before they believe.”
You have taken “ungodly” and changed it into “ungodly and therefore not yet believing.” That is your inference.
So once again:
You have supplied the timing. Scripture did not.
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Calvinism portrays God as monstrously evil because it teaches that He favours a select few while withholding saving grace from the rest. Scripture is crystal clear that God is no respecter of persons.
Deut 4:2, Deut 13:1–5, Deut 18:20–22, Josh 1:7, Prov 30:5–6, Isa 8:20, Jer 23:16, Jer 23:25–32, Ezek 13:1–16, Matt 7:15–20, Matt 15:9, Matt 24:11, Matt 24:24, Mark 7:7–13, Acts 20:28–31, Rom 16:17–18, 2 Cor 2:17, 2 Cor 4:2, 2 Cor 11:13–15, Gal 1:6–9, Eph 4:14, Phil 3:2, Col 2:8, 1 Tim 1:3–7, 1 Tim 4:1–3, 1 Tim 6:3–5, 2 Tim 2:15–18, 2 Tim 3:13–17, 2 Tim 4:2–4, Titus 1:9–16, Heb 13:9, James 3:1, 2 Pet 2:1–3, 2 Pet 2:12–22, 1 John 2:18–27, 1 John 4:1–6, 2 John 7–11, Jude 3–4, Jude 12–19, Rev 2:2, Rev 2:14–16, Rev 2:20–24, Rev 3:9, Rev 22:18–19
The Terror of Standing Before God as a False Teacher
KingJ
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@Brightfame52
It is crystal clear from this thread and this one Calvinist teaching usual nonsense that even with the help of AI you cannot hold your own in a debate. Defending Calvinism requires you to stretch extremely far for straws. It must be so infuriating for you to defend such a weak and unsupported theology.
I am tired of the circles you keep forcing discussion into with your consistent inferences, assumptions and reading blunders.
I want to know what kind of person, in their right state of mind, is fine with serving a God portrayed by Calvinism, that everyone, including AI believe is a 10/10 evil monster.
Answer that for me. How demented and evil must followers of Calvinism be to follow and teach about a God that is a monster?
You come across as a little grovelling sycophant minion.
It is crystal clear from this thread and this one Calvinist teaching usual nonsense that even with the help of AI you cannot hold your own in a debate. Defending Calvinism requires you to stretch extremely far for straws. It must be so infuriating for you to defend such a weak and unsupported theology.
I am tired of the circles you keep forcing discussion into with your consistent inferences, assumptions and reading blunders.
I want to know what kind of person, in their right state of mind, is fine with serving a God portrayed by Calvinism, that everyone, including AI believe is a 10/10 evil monster.
Answer that for me. How demented and evil must followers of Calvinism be to follow and teach about a God that is a monster?
You come across as a little grovelling sycophant minion.
