Dead or alive?

[B-A-C]

There seems to be quite a bit of disagreement about what these passages mean, but have you ever noticed how much the Bible says we were dead?

Rom 6:11; Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
Rom 6:13; and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.
Rom 8:10; If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.
Eph 2:5; even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
Col 2:13; When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,
Rev 3:1; "To the angel of the church in Sardis write: He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars, says this: 'I know your deeds, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead.

We are told to be "dead to sin" but alive to God. How can we be dead and alive at the same time?
We are told to present ourselves to God as those alive from the dead.
In Romans 8 Paul says the body is dead, but the spirit is alive.
Ephesians 2 says we were dead in our transgressions, but made alive together with Christ.

How can we be dead, if we are alive? Why do so many Bible verses use this language.

Everyone who has a beating heart, and breathes is physically alive. Even babies in their mother wombs have beating hearts and receive oxygen through their mothers blood.

So if we are alive... how can we be dead.
The Bible seems to be separating our spirit and our bodies.
Our bodies can be physically alive, but we can be spiritually dead at the same time.

Many Christians believe there is an opposite state, were our bodies are physically dead, but our spirit is alive (in Christ).
An old Christian saying says... born once, die twice. Born twice, die once.

Every human is born dead in our trespasses. Every human has the sin nature passed on through Adam.

Now it seems that Jesus will judge the living and the dead. What does that mean?

Acts 10:42; "And He ordered us to preach to the people, and solemnly to testify that this is the One who has been appointed by God as Judge of the living and the dead.
Rom 14:9; For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.
2 Tim 4:1; I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom:
1 Pet 4:5; but they will give account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.

These verses could be taken a couple of different ways I suppose. But to me it appears Jesus will judge those who are spiritually dead, and those who are spiritually alive.

We will all die eventually.

Heb 9:27; And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,

But the question is, how many will die again (the second death)?

 

[B-A-C]

Rev 2:11; 'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.'
Rev 20:6; Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.
Rev 20:14; Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
Rev 21:8; "But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

The Bible speaks about something called the second death. How can we die again if we are already dead?
There have been several discussion here on TalkJesus about "do we ever really die"?
Even for true Christians I think the answer is "at least once". Even Jesus died once. But of course He isn't dead now.

But what about dying twice? Does that mean we cease to exist? Yet another point of debate and disagreement.
Still, it seems at the very least, everyone dies once. Will we die in the rapture? I'm not sure of all the exact specifics, but it does say we will be changed in the twinkling of an eye.

And even if the unsaved die twice, does that mean they really die in the sense that they feel no more pain or sorrow?

... to be continued ...

 

[B-A-C]

The vast majority of Christainity believes we spend eternity in once of two conditions (or places if you will).
Not everyone believes this, but for the most part you either end up in a place where...

Rev 21:4; and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away."

There is no more pain, no more sorrow, no more suffering, not even any more crying. It seems it will be an amazing thing not to feel pain anymore.
On the other hand, there is another place (or condition) where....

Rev 14:11; "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."
Luke 16:23; "In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and *saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luke 16:28; for I have five brothers—in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'
Rev 20:10; And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

It seems people will be suffering, they will be in torment. There is some disagreement on who these people are, but it seems at the very least it was the rich man in the story of Lazarus,
It will be the devil, the beast, and the false prophet. It also appears whoever worships the beast and receives his mark will be tormented forever and ever.

So it appears that even in the "second death", you aren't really dead in the sense that you feel no pain.

If this is indeed the case, it seems you would not only want to make sure your name is in the Book of Life, but also the names of your loved ones.

Rev 20:15; And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

John 3:36; "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

So it appears that even in the "second death", you aren't really dead in the sense that you feel

One way to understand it.
We are spirit
We have a soul (mind, will and emotion)
We live in a body like a hand in a glove.

Remove the hand and the glove is lifeless.

Our Soul stays with our Spirit.
Either with or without God for eternity, we will feel, taste and think.

So yeah.......even though its called second death, you are still alive and fully aware but separated from Love (God)

Eternity is a long time!
Blessings

 

[B-A-C]

)
We live in a body like a hand in a glove.

Remove the hand and the glove is lifeless.

And yet, we are capable of moving the glove before we are made "alive". I agree with you that our body is not our spirit, it is as Paul says... just our earthly "tent".

2 Cor 5:1; For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 Cor 5:4; For indeed while we are in this tent, we groan, being burdened, because we do not want to be unclothed but to be clothed, so that what is mortal will be swallowed up by life.

It seems this tent will be torn down, and we will get a "house not made with hands". A tent would appear to be a temporary place, a house would appear to be a permanent place.

But even people who aren't "born again" can move their tents around. So in a physical sense, they aren't really dead.
There must be something that happens to the spirit inside the glove (or tent). Something that changes.
Just like some of us will get a new body, it seems that some of us will get a new spirit.

Rom 7:6; But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

1 Cor 2:11; For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God.

Eph 3:16; that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man,

Here is a passage that is seemingly off-subject, it talks about sexual immorality. But notice the last verse of this passage.

1 Thes 4:3; For this is the will of God, your sanctification; that is, that you abstain from sexual immorality;
1 Thes 4:4; that each of you know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor,
1 Thes 4:5; not in lustful passion, like the Gentiles who do not know God;
1 Thes 4:6; and that no man transgress and defraud his brother in the matter because the Lord is the avenger in all these things, just as we also told you before and solemnly warned you.
1 Thes 4:7; For God has not called us for the purpose of impurity, but in sanctification.
1 Thes 4:8; So, he who rejects this is not rejecting man but the God who gives His Holy Spirit to you.

This is talking about sanctification. It says the mans who rejects "this".. is not rejecting men, but God who gives you the Holy Spirit.
With this in mind, is it even possible to have the Holy Spirit inside you if you are living in sexual immorality?

It seems there are many "Christians" who would say they aren't rejecting God (hence, the Holy Spirit)

 

[B-A-C]

The only other person in the Bible who mentions being born again besides Jesus in John 3, is Peter.

1 Pet 1:3; Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
1 Pet 1:4; to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,
1 Pet 1:5; who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
1 Pet 1:6; In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials,
1 Pet 1:7; so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
1 Pet 1:8; and though you have not seen Him, you love Him, and though you do not see Him now, but believe in Him, you greatly rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory,
1 Pet 1:9; obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.
1 Pet 1:10; As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries,
1 Pet 1:11; seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow.
1 Pet 1:12; It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves, but you, in these things which now have been announced to you through those who preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven—things into which angels long to look.

God caused us to be "born again" to a living hope. The resurrection of Jesus from the dead.
This passage is mentioned in another thread about testing. ... "so that the proof of your faith"... "obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls".
Verse 12 says... it was revealed to "them" (people who went through trials and sufferings) whether or not they were serving themselves or not.

Amazingly, it says even the angels want to look into these things. It seems there are things the Holy Spirit can teach men, that even the angels don't know.

 

[B-A-C]

1 Pet 1:22; Since you have in obedience to the truth purified your souls for a sincere love of the brethren, fervently love one another from the heart,
1 Pet 1:23; for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God.
1 Pet 1:24; For, "ALL FLESH IS LIKE GRASS, AND ALL ITS GLORY LIKE THE FLOWER OF GRASS. THE GRASS WITHERS, AND THE FLOWER FALLS OFF,
1 Pet 1:25; BUT THE WORD OF THE LORD ENDURES FOREVER." And this is the word which was preached to you.

We have been "born again" (of a seed which is imperishable) it says this seed is "the living and enduring word of God".
It goes on to say.... "ALL" flesh is like grass that will wither away... but the Word of the Lord endures forever.

It seems our fleshly body will wither away. This is a quote from the old testament. (Isa 40:8; )
But it seems the idea that our bodies wither away and return to the dust of the earth is not just a new testament thing. All of the verses below are from the old testament.

Gen 3:19; By the sweat of your face You will eat bread, Till you return to the ground, Because from it you were taken; For you are dust, And to dust you shall return."
Job 34:15; All flesh would perish together, And man would return to dust.
Psa 90:3; You turn man back into dust And say, "Return, O children of men."
Psa 104:29; You hide Your face, they are dismayed; You take away their spirit, they expire And return to their dust.
Ecc 3:20; All go to the same place. All came from the dust and all return to the dust.
Ecc 12:7; then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.

Our bodies go back to the dust... but our spirits return to God.

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

Just like some of us will get a new body, it seems that some of us will get a new spirit.

Those who are born again will get a new glorified body when we go home.

The only ones getting a new Spirit are those who obtain a new Spirit or Born Again into Christ.

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

This is talking about sanctification. It says the mans who rejects "this".. is not rejecting men, but God who gives you the Holy Spirit.
With this in mind, is it even possible to have the Holy Spirit inside you if you are living in sexual immorality?

It seems there are many "Christians" who would say they aren't rejecting God (hence, the Holy Spirit)

Can a born again man sin?
Yes he is able to as he gives into the flesh

Can a born again child of God end up in an adulterous affair?
Yes once they give into the flesh.

When we get into the flesh, we have rejected the Holy Spirit prompting us not to do it. We reject Gods way of escape.

If we continue on rejecting God in this then we risk a lot.

What lands you in hell?
Rejecting Jesus!

Will God ever give a person over to their desires (reprobate mind)
Yes!!

So for a believer Rejecting God long enough puts this believer in a place of walking away from their salvation.

Blessings