could anybody here talk a little about the church history?

[jesusisthegod]

just briefly.
apostles founded the orginal churches
when did people change their understanding of Bible from apostles?
before the revolution of Martin Luther, all people got from the churches were wrong?
so most church attendants before Martin Luther went to the Hell ,since they received wrong teachering from churches?

 

[Adstar]

Jesusisthegod.



Many people through history had their own views on faith. and still today many who are in churches no not agree 100% with everything their church officially believes.



So down throughout history there have always been true Christians even though they may have been forced to go to false churches.



There has existed all the way through history the "Body Of Christ" this is all the true believers, this "Body Of Christ" is independent of churches (buildings, organization, hierarchy).



There is a poem i would like to share with you.



Temples of God

We are the Church
God's holy people
We need no doors
Or fancy steeples



For we are the Temple
Where He wishes to stay
Which He bought with His blood
And willingly paid



So open your hearts
And let Jesus come in
And lay aside each weight
And besetting sin



Then run the race
That is set before you
Only trusting in Jesus
And never what you do



For He'll fill you with joy
His love and His peace
And you as His bride
He will lovingly keep

By blindseeker



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[jesusisthegod]

i really like the poem. so worm. thank you.

 

[MikeC1956]

just briefly.
apostles founded the orginal churches
when did people change their understanding of Bible from apostles?
before the revolution of Martin Luther, all people got from the churches were wrong?
so most church attendants before Martin Luther went to the Hell ,since they received wrong teachering from churches?

people have always had issues with the scriptures. remember though that for the first few hundred years, christianity was persecuted, so only select people had copies of the scriptures and people relied more heavily on their memory of what they heard read to them. and all there teaching was indeed handed down by fallible men.

as to your statement about all they got from the churches was wrong, I highly doubt that. since many of the orthodox doctrine we have today came from those early days. Salvation by grace through faith, the sovereignty of God, the responsibility of man, the atoning death of Jesus, the resurrection of Jesus, the virgin birth of Jesus, the trinity, the fall and ruin of man. These all came out long before Br Martin was illuminated by the Holy Spirit to the end that the church was reformed.

There have been, and I believe there will always be, divisions over doctrine, that is, until Jesus comes and gives us the knowledge again first hand. I certainly believe their will be people their we did not expect to see, and there will be missing people we did expect to see. That's just the nature of life.

In fact, and history bears me out on this, the Church of Rome was handily used by Almighty God to preserve the scriptures during the Dark Ages, monks who loved the Lord, hid copies of the Word when invasion was imminent. And they kept alive the koine language.

Remember the simplicity of the gospel.

Rom 10:8-10 But what says it? The word is near you, even in your mouth, and in your heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; that if you shall confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and shall believe in your heart that God has raised him from the dead, you shall be saved. For with the heart man believes unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

That's it, everything else, EVERYTHING ELSE will be affirmed or corrected when we see him face to face. Because if it relies on man's understanding, then it it no longer by grace, but by knowledge. And that was and error corrected very early on as well.

Do not mistake the declarations from the Council of Trent to be what the church had believed from the beginning. Even today, the study of Patristics, ie, the early church fathers, reveals much, but that depends on your understanding of the times and cultures. There really are some things hard to understand, but not impossible to understand. The vast majority of the scriptures are able to be understood by children, with no special training.

And remember too, that example given us by Elijah when he was dispairing. What did God tell him when he thought he was the only one left? No, I have a remnant. 1 Ki 19:19. And he always will.

 

[jesusisthegod]

actually, you misunderstood me. sorry.
i just want to know the statement i will say below:
1. Apostles founded the leading churches, and i am pretty sure they were real christians.
2. From the first church's age to the church of Martin Luther's age, was the leader of the church change the understanding which they should keep from the apostles?
3. If so, Martin Luther definately should lead a revolution to find the truth.
4. Before he leaded the revolution, people got wrong teachering from the leader in the church, so even they thought they got the 'truth' ,which they didn't, they would still go to the hell. ?
5. Do you mean God use to be with THEM '' In fact, and history bears me out on this, the Church of Rome was handily used by Almighty God to preserve the scriptures during the Dark Ages, ''. but now their duty of keeping WORDS is over, God doesnt need THEM. it is real christian's time?

 

[MikeC1956]

I learned a long time ago never to put God in a box.

I'm sorry, I guess I'm still having problems understanding the question.

Are you asking, "Did the popes, cardinal, bishops, theologians, or priests change the understanding of what the gospel was? or the traditions haded down through their magisterium, ie, traditions?"

4. Before he leaded the revolution, people got wrong teachering from the leader in the church, so even they thought they got the 'truth' ,which they didn't, they would still go to the hell.?

How can you say that they didn't? Were you in every mass in every country in all of christendom? You cannot make that claim because you are not God. It sounds like you have been listening to some erroroneous teach(ers)(ings) yourself. So does that mean you're not saved? What is the gospel? and on what does salvation depend? If it is works of the law, then they and we, and everyone is doomed.

5. Do you mean God use to be with THEM '' In fact, and history bears me out on this, the Church of Rome was handily used by Almighty God to preserve the scriptures during the Dark Ages, ''. but now their duty of keeping WORDS is over, God doesnt need THEM. it is real christian's time?

Real Christians? Seems you're looking at differences in the way ou worship from the way that christians have worshiped through the centuries.

What is the gospel?

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Why do people want to add to this?

 

[Coconut]

2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

 

[jesusisthegod]

sorry, please, i meant 'they changed' not meant 'they didn't' . I just confirm this with you. not agressively ask you ' how can you say they changed?' that is not what i meant.
i 've never in any mass and dont know what r they talking about.
it is so funny, because here i am a question asker, but in another forum i answer the question mostly form non-believer.
i have personal understanding about the question, and i want to share it with you.
1. Nothing is everlasting, but the God, our Jesus.
2.No Apostles, no Catholics, no churches, no evangelical christians are everlasting, but The God, our Jesus.
3. We have sins, like Adam had, King David had ,King Solomon had
4. They were good at first, but bad at last, all because we have sins; we r human beings.
5. whoever be proud of himself before God will lose the power God gave.
6.We have the truth now doesnt mean we are the truth and we can have it for ever.
7.Unless we examine ourselves all the time, and prevent the mistakes happened in the cases of catholic churches, King David, King Solomon.
8. God used to reward them, but they became self-centre, so God stay away from them.
9. Nothing in the world is everlasting, but God. No christian is everlasting, but God. Be humble before God all the time, otherwise we will lose the truth like people did in the past time. Who wants to be the first will be least. Judgement is only from the God.

 

Remember that Saint Paul pretty much believed that you are saved by faith alone - not by deed. So if you
had faith in Jesus as your savior, Paul would say that you were saved, regardless of your actions. Also keep
in mind that it was not so much the TEACHINGS of the church which Martin Luther objected to as its PRACTICES.
The teachings of all Christian churches thoughout history have involved faitj in Jesus as Savior, so Paul would
say they were all mostly acceptable, even if he would have disagreed with some theological details and many
practices.

 

The early chuch was formed around Saint Peter and James the Just (brother of Jesus) in Jeruselem.
This group preached almost excusively to Jews. Saint Paul does not seem to have decided
definitively at any point to preach mostly to Gentiles. It may be that he was opposed by the
established Jewish communities. (Already there were far more Jews living outside Judea than
inside.) Jesus pretty much opposed the ruling classes of the Jewish communites, the Phasisees
and the Saducees. (Paul was a Pharasee before his conversion.) The Gentile Chrisstian church
distanced itself from the Jewish Christian church after the First Jewish Revolt in about 70 AD.
The Jewish Chirstian church disappeared in the next few decades.

 

[jesusisthegod]

yes, i agree with you. it is the exact words I want to know. thank you.

 

[B-A-C]

There were of course the original churches the apostle founded.
Some are mentioned in the Bible. Corinthians, Ephesus, Galatia, Thessalonica, Rome, and Philippi.
It seems there were Christians churches in Jerusalem, possibly other parts of Israel.

If you believe the Roman Catholic church, Peter was the first Pope of the Roman Catholic church.
More likely the Roman Church was started in the 3rd century. Constantine the great (Roman Emperor)
wrote about starting a "centralized government" church. Much like the vatican today. Coincidentally
it is in Rome. The Roman Catholic church was never "the only" church. Although they were the predominant
church for centuries. There was also the Greek Orthodox church. Similar to the Roman Catholic church is some ways.
...and there was always "the church". People who weren't Roman Catholics or Greek Orthodox... just believers who met
wherever and whenever they could. They didn't adhere to the vatican or the Pope.

Also in the 3rd century a group called the "council of Nicea" got together. They are the group that decided
which books are in the Bible. The are also the group that came up with something called the "Nicene creed".
Many believe the Nicene creed is proof that there were already denominational spin offs even in the 3rd century.

As far as many world powers were concerned, The Roman Catholic church was "the only" church. Still the Catholic church
became more and more corrupt over the years. Even today some teachings and traditions are far from Biblical.

In 1517 Martin Luther wrote the 95 Thesis. If you ever get a chance read it. It is long winded, and boring in most places,
but a lot of the foundation of the Protestant beliefs are here.

This in generally considered the start of the Protestant Reformation. Protestants consider themselves "the Reformed Church".
The word "Protestant" comes from protest. What were we protesting? The Roman Catholic church. I had read Wikipedias
articles on this, and they are flat our wrong. I'm fairly certain they were written by Catholics. I have book about these subjects
that were written hundreds of years ago. Lutherans consider Martin Luther the Father of the Lutheran church.

About 20 years after the reformation John Calvin started another major church spin off. The Calvinist movement.
He is generally considered the Father of the Baptist church. He and Martin Luther were alive at the same time.

About 20 years after this, Jacobus Arminius started the Arminian movement. He is considered the Father of the Dutch reformed church.

There is too much to say about this in a short thread, but the quick and short of it is... Calvinists generally believe in predestination,
total depravity of men, cessation of Spiritual gifts, and once saved always saved. (I am leaving some things out due to time)

Arminians believe in freedom of choice, they believe man has the ability to seek God, the continuation of Spiritual gifts and they believe you can loose your salvation
if you try hard enough. (again I am leaving out some things, due to space and time).

Virtually all Pentecostal churches come from Arminian branches.

About 150 years later we have a man named John Wesley. His ministry was in the early 1700's. Wesley tried to find some
medium ground between Calvinism and Arminianism. He believed in parts of both. He also believed there was a "method"
or a "formula" to come to God. Because of this "method", the Methodist church was founded. John Wesley is considered
the Father of the Methodist church.

Nearly all churches today come out of these six branches. The Roman Catholic church and the Greek orthodox church still
continue today. The Reformed church, the Baptist church and the Methodist church all continue today.

I have more to say about the Quakers/Shakers/Pentecostal movements.
I am not as well versed in the Anglican/Presbyterian branches. But I will share what I know.
Many Protestant churches do not even consider Anglicans and Presbyterians.. "Protestants".
Maybe someone else could speak to those better.

... to be continued ....

 

[B-A-C]

Now to talk about something I don' t really know much about. Please feel free to correct me where I am wrong here.

The English church renounced papal authority when Henry VIII failed to secure an annulment of his marriage to Catherine of Aragon in 1534.

It's my understanding (probably incorrect) that Anglican church was really part of the Roman Catholic church until this time.
Henry didn't like it that the RC church and the Pope wouldn't annul his marriage. So he broke off from them and started his own church.

One of the main difference was they no longer adhered to the Vatican and the Pope, but rather the Archbishop of Canterbury is the head of this church.
Again it is my understanding (possibly wrong) that the Anglican church followed most of the teachings and practices of the Roman Catholic church
for quite a while after this time. (other than following the Pope).

I have been told that the Anglican church has slowly started to "westernize" over the centuries... that is... to become more Protestant in their
teachings and practices. But as I have never attended one of these churches, I cannot say if this is true or not.

Can anyone confirm this? Do they still have priests? Do they still practice "Mass" rather than communion? Do they still practice infant baptisms?

... to be continued ...

 

[B-A-C]

After reading an article on the "Puritans". It seems these were mostly Anglicans from England who wanted change
the church of England from continuing it's "Roman Catholic" practices. In fact it seems many came to America
(see the story of the Mayflower) to escape the Anglican church. Not that they were persecuted, but rather they wanted to establish
more "Protestant" teachings and practices.

I admit.... I am getting this second hand from internet articles, so I can't vouch for the Anglicans and Puritans and what they believe.

... to be continued ...

 

[B-A-C]

It seems not a lot happened in "the church" during the 1800's. I think the world was still growing and "getting settled".

And yet it was during this time the church struggled with
Synergism (theology) - Wikipedia Synergism
and
Monergism - Wikipedia Monergism.

During the late 1800's and early 1900's was when the "church" started seeing new theologies and what is typically
called "cults". The Jehovah's Witnesses and the Mormon churches were started during this time. There were many
others after them and continue on to this day.

Some of Christians of the "new world" started trying to get back to the basics of the church.
While Quakers and Shakers were known for being very conservative and staunch, they were also known
as "Holy Rollers". People who claimed to be "baptized in the Holy Spirit". There was a movement where these people
would literally start "shaking" or "quaking". This seemed to "die out" somewhat as the church became more
"Americanized".

This was restarted yet again in 1906 with "the Azusa street revival" . Azusa Street Revival - Wikipedia
There have been several such "Holy Spirit" revivals through the last century.
Brownsville Revival - Wikipedia

The Assemblies of God, Foursquare, Hillsong and Vineyard churches all started through these Pentecostal revivals.
While these churches primarily started in America, they are now world wide with 10's of millions of members.

I am told the Hillsong church is now the largest church in Australia. In a way.. Australia is also considered "the new world".

The main thing that sets these churches apart from the traditional "old world" churches, is the belief that the gifts
of the Holy Spirit still apply in todays Christianity. Specifically those in 1 Cor 12:7-11;

The Pentecostal movement has caused splits in the church, as much as the Calvinist/Arminian movements before this.
As much as the Protestant reformation from the Roman Catholic church before this.

It seems the church has been in some form of conflict with itself even since the time of the Apostles. ( 1 Cor 1:12; )

..and now it seems the church as a whole is under attack again.
Liberalism has crept into the church. Homosexuality, antimonianism, and denying the deity of Christ has become popular
in many churches today. This also has caused church splits.

I have left a lot out. But this is the condensed version. I feel it covers most of the "major" movements in the church
over the last 17 centuries.