Conditional salvation?

[B-A-C]

There are some who say salvation and forgiveness are unconditional.
Often these people will share scripture verses above the love of God, and how nothing can separate us from
God. However the verses actually say... from the "love" of God, not God himself.
There is a difference. God loves even sinners, even the unsaved. Just because God loves someone
doesn't mean they are saved.

To me.. it seems just the opposite, certain things are conditional.

We are forgiven... IF ... we forgive others. ( Matt 6:14-15; Matt 18:35; Mark 11:25-26; etc... )
But what if we do not forgive others? Are we still forgiven? Are is Jesus lying in the verses above?

We are given the Holy Spirit ... IF ... we obey God. ( Acts 5:32; )
But what if we don't (usually) obey God? Do we still have the Holy Spirit? Or is Luke lying here?

In Matt 19:16; someone asks Jesus what does he have to do to have eternal life.
In the next verse Jesus says "... IF.. you want eternal life.. keep the commandments".
Does this mean we have eternal life even if we don't try to keep the commandments?
Or was Jesus exaggerating, and simply offering a suggestion here?

In Matt 25:32-33; Jesus talks about the sheep being separated from the goats.
What makes someone a sheep or a goat?
Verses 34 to 45 give the answer. It talks about feeding the hungry, clothing the poor, visiting the sick, etc...
It goes on to say.... those who don't do these things will go away into eternal punishment.

There are more conditions...

Matt 7:21-23; comes up a lot here on TJ, I see at least 4 different threads about this in the last 4 months.
These people believed in Jesus... they called Him "Lord, Lord".
They even did miracles, and cast out demons in Jesus' name. So why don't they go to heaven?
There must be another condition here..... what could it be?
In verse 23 it says.... "depart from me, you who practice lawlessness".
Could it be that practicing righteousness or lawlessness is a condition?

There are many who say Jesus abides in them... is there a condition for this?
John 15:10; says ..IF.. we keep the commandments, we will abide in His love.
But what if we don't keep them?

1 Jn 3:24; says ... IF... we keep His commandments we abide in Him, and He abides in us.
But what if we don't keep the commandments? Does He still abide in us? Was Jesus just making this up
to scare us? Was He just kidding?

There were 10 virgins in Matt 25:1-13; All 10 started out with oil. Five ran out.
They were not allowed in the enter in with the bridegroom (Jesus). It seems there is a condition
here... we can't run out of oil.

In Matt 25:14-30; we see the story of the 3 servants. All three servants were in the master's household.
All 3 servants were given something (talents) by the master to be used. Two of the servants did this.
One did not... he was "thrown out" into the outer darkness. He was called a wicked and lazy servant...
Is there a condition that we have to use the talents God gave us? Or is this story, simply something
that doesn't apply to us.

There are literally dozens more verses like this... it seems there are conditions on some things.

Is bearing fruit a requirement?
In Luke 13 we see the vineyard owner was talking to the gardener.
He comes across a tree... He says... why is it even taking up space here. It is useless.
He says I've come for three years looking for fruit.
But the gardener says... lets cultivate it.. lets put fertilizer around it...
But then next year.. ...IF ..it still doesn't bear fruit.. cut it down and throw it into the fire.

Is there a condition to bear fruit? Is it required?

 

[RJ]

Is there a condition to bear fruit?

Yes, having Jesus Christ living in you!

Is it required?

Yes, it is proof that you are bearing his fruit / works, with out these your faith is dead.

 

[robaston]

There are some who say salvation and forgiveness are unconditional.
Often these people will share scripture verses above the love of God, and how nothing can separate us from
God. However the verses actually say... from the "love" of God, not God himself.
There is a difference. God loves even sinners, even the unsaved. Just because God loves someone
doesn't mean they are saved.

ths is important to understand...i live by the grace of God but I grow with grace and faith, grace to forgive my careless ways, and faith given to me to grow

bac mentioned We are given the Holy Spirit ... IF ... we obey God. ( Acts 5:32; )
But what if we don't (usually) obey God? Do we still have the Holy Spirit? Or is Luke lying here? i don't think bac means we lose, then get back, then lose, then get back...

 

[Christ4Ever]

@B-A-C

Do you believe brother that this why Paul said to the church in Philippi "Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure." Philippians 2:12-13

 

[RJ]

i don't think bac means we lose, then get back, then lose, then get back...

Perhaps, it sure seems that he promotes this type of salvation, that, that he possibly gives too much validation to works over Grace; that is just my opinion.
I personally see nothing in scripture that says you can fall into Grace, receive Christ in you, and then for some reason, fall out of Grace and Christ leave you. Here are some things I do see in scripture:

1. John 3:7 You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.' Jesus told Nicodemus that you must be born again, born of the spirit. In life, you are physically born of your Mother, there is no such thing as being "un-born"! You are born spiritually when you receive Christ in you; there is nothing in scripture that says you can be spiritually "un-born"!
2. Hebrews 13:5 Keep your lives free from the love of money and be content with what you have, because God has said, “Never will I leave you; never will I forsake you.” No where in the Bible does it say, once God is in us, he can forsake or leave us!
3. John 10:28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. How do you fall out of Grace with a God like this?
4. Hebrews 6:6 6and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace....If you where to receive Grace, fall out of Grace, then receive Grace again...again and again, Jesus would have to be crucified over and over again. This is not going to happen, he died once and for all!

 

[Bendito]

Perhaps, it sure seems that he promotes this type of salvation, that, that he possibly gives too much validation to works over Grace; that is just my opinion.
I personally see nothing in scripture that says you can fall into Grace, receive Christ in you, and then for some reason, fall out of Grace and Christ leave you. Here are some things I do see in scripture:

1. John 3:7 You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.' Jesus told Nicodemus that you must be born again, born of the spirit. In life, you are physically born of your Mother, there is no such thing as being "un-born"! You are born spiritually when you receive Christ in you; there is nothing in scripture that says you can be spiritually "un-born"!
2. Hebrews 13:5 Keep your lives free from the love of money and be content with what you have, because God has said, “Never will I leave you; never will I forsake you.” No where in the Bible does it say, once God is in us, he can forsake or leave us!
3. John 10:28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. How do you fall out of Grace with a God like this?
4. Hebrews 6:6 6and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace....If you where to receive Grace, fall out of Grace, then receive Grace again...again and again, Jesus would have to be crucified over and over again. This is not going to happen, he died once and for all!

Actually getting saved is the easy part....
Romans 10:8-10 (KJV)
8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

But there appears to be more than one level of being saved. As a Christian you have victory over the enemy.
In Christ, you are given victorious over all His/your foes because Jesus won that for you.
Then you go onward. If you are one of the ones who of those Christians, that hold fast their faith even unto death against the power of their foes, and temptations and persecutions, taking that victory and marches against the enemy. This Christian will be made a pillar, (indicating a firm and permanent position in the spiritual, heavenly and eternal Temple of God) A hero status if you will.
Personally I think this is the difference between being saved and being part of the bride...
My Lady asked the Lord once about a person, and was told very clearly, "Getting into heaven is not as hard as you might think" Getting to be part of the bride takes preparation.
Revelation 3:12

 

[B-A-C]

Perhaps, it sure seems that he promotes this type of salvation, that, that he possibly gives too much validation to works over Grace; that is just my opinion.
I personally see nothing in scripture that says you can fall into Grace, receive Christ in you, and then for some reason, fall out of Grace and Christ leave you. Here are some things I do see in scripture:

It may be that you are right here. This thread isn't really about once saved always... maybe in this case they never were saved...
for the purpose of this thread.. it doesn't really matter.

The point here is... There are things that we ourselves have to do to be saved.
Yes, there is mercy... (even this is conditional) and yes there is grace.... but despite these things, there are some
who believe they saved, but yet they aren't. (OK, to go along with what you are saying, maybe they were never saved in the first place, fine. This thread isn't really about that.)
The point is... even though they "think" they are saved... they aren't.
The question is... why? What do we think.. (or do?) that separates us from these people?

 

[B-A-C]

Personally I think this is the difference between being saved and being part of the bride...
My Lady asked the Lord once about a person, and was told very clearly, "Getting into heaven is not as hard as you might think" Getting to be part of the bride takes preparation.

You may be correct, I have heard this preached different ways over the years. Not everyone who is "in" the kingdom
of heaven, gets to be a part of the ending.. for example....

According to Matt 13:24-30; the kingdom of heaven has both wheat are tares in it.... however at the end, the tares are burned up ( verse 30 )

( The parable of the wheat and tares is explained in Matt 13:36-43; )

The kingdom of heaven also has both good fish... and "bad" fish in it... ( Matt 13:47-50; )
And yet, at the end, the bad fish will be thrown out into the fire ( verse 50 )

What makes you a good fish or a bad fish? What makes you a wheat or a tare? What makes you a goat
or a sheep? It seems all of these people are "in the kingdom of heaven", at least for a while. maybe they
were never saved in the first place, OK, I'm fine with that for the sake of this thread) but whether they were
or they weren't, the point is... they aren't at the end.
They all seem to believe in Jesus.. or at least a form of Jesus...

Is what they believe... or what they do that is the difference? If it is only the belief... what is different about
our belief and their belief?

 

[RJ]

But there appears to be more than one level of being saved

There are no levels of salvation. You are either saved or you are not saved; you either have Jesus Christ in you or you don't!

 

[RJ]

The point here is... There are things that we ourselves have to do to be saved.

• What things? What could you possibly do that God would credit you with salvation, when he distinctly says that you are saved by Grace and not works ( of any kind)...IF, there was ANYTHING you could be responsible for in the form of a work, you, as a human could and probably would boast. It is all of God and none of us! Ephesians 2: 8-9 8 For grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; cit is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

 

[Bendito]

RJ Maybe I said it wrong...I'm saying though that you can be saved, or you can be saved and be part of the bride of Christ. Not all Christians are part of the bride. Only those who make themselves ready

 

[RJ]

RJ Maybe I said it wrong...I'm saying though that you can be saved, or you can be saved and be part of the bride of Christ. Not all Christians are part of the bride. Only those who make themselves ready

You don't make yourself ready, God does that by putting his spirit inside you. Someone may call themselves a Christian, churches are full of them. Only the true "Born Again" person has the spirit of God in them, all others are false and no Christian.

 

[B-A-C]

Yes, having Jesus Christ living in you!

Yes, it is proof that you are bearing his fruit / works, with out these your faith is dead.

Having Jesus inside you... yes agreed. But every person I know says they have Jesus living inside them.
Yet the Bible says we have to keep the commandments to have Jesus living inside us.

How does someone know whether they have Jesus inside them or not? Mormons say they do.
Jehovah's witnesses say they do. Unitarians say they do. Homosexuals say they do.

So how does someone know? What do you do that they don't do?

 

[Bendito]

You don't make yourself ready, God does that by putting his spirit inside you. Someone may call themselves a Christian, churches are full of them. Only the true "Born Again" person has the spirit of God in them, all others are false and no Christian.

OK You said " You don't make yourself ready, God does that by putting his spirit inside you." So how does this line up with these verses?

Matthew 25:1-13 (CJB)

25 “The Kingdom of Heaven at that time will be like ten bridesmaids who took their lamps and went out to meet the groom. 2 Five of them were foolish and five were sensible. 3 The foolish ones took lamps with them but no oil, 4 whereas the others took flasks of oil with their lamps. 5 Now the bridegroom was late, so they all went to sleep. 6 It was the middle of the night when the cry rang out, ‘The bridegroom is here! Go out to meet him!’ 7 The girls all woke up and prepared their lamps for lighting. 8 The foolish ones said to the sensible ones, ‘Give us some of your oil, because our lamps are going out.’ 9 ‘No,’ they replied, ‘there may not be enough for both you and us. Go to the oil dealers and buy some for yourselves.’ 10 But as they were going off to buy, the bridegroom came. Those who were ready went with him to the wedding feast, and the door was shut. 11 Later, the other bridesmaids came. ‘Sir! Sir!’ they cried, ‘Let us in!’ 12 But he answered, ‘Indeed! I tell you, I don’t know you!’ 13 So stay alert, because you know neither the day nor the hour.


Revelation 19:6-8 (CJB)

6 Then I heard what sounded like the roar of a huge crowd, like the sound of rushing waters, like loud peals of thunder, saying,

“Halleluyah!
Adonai, God of heaven’s armies,[a]
has begun his reign!

7 “Let us rejoice and be glad!
Let us give him the glory!
For the time has come for the
wedding of the Lamb,
and his Bride has prepared herself —
8 fine linen, bright and clean
has been given her to wear.”

As much as I like you RJ I would rather believe God's Word...

 

[Christ4Ever]

Dear Brothers & Sisters.

I know I am saved not because of any surety on my part, but on the promises made by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ by the Good News I have received from those who were faithful to His commandments. My contribution to my own salvation is zero in and of itself.

My vessel in spirit in my rebirth must be as the good and faithful servant who does as His Master requires of Him. Hearing His voice He follows. For to do otherwise I am a thief who has tried to enter by another way.

My words may condemn me, but I can say it no other way today, and will always fall at the foot of the cross, begging His Mercy and forgiveness, for I know my weakness' and failings.

For I can do nothing else but continue to battle on to my last breath, that in Christ Jesus I may one day hear. "Well done thou good and faithful servant". By His love, mercy, grace, faith, hope in Him and Him alone I tear for this possibility and tremble for the moment!

Am I comforted by forgiveness received? Yes. Am I restful in my laurels? No

Nor should any of us be. There is still much work to do. Here at Talk Jesus, in our families, our homes, cities, towns, and villages wherever there is an ear to listen. Let it be our voices which trumpet the Good News. Salvation has arrived in the name of Jesus and will turn none away. All have need of Him and too few will listen. Still we continue on.

My salvation is precious to me, because it was paid by the ultimate price. I pray I do not squander this gift by keeping it to myself and not sharing it. This is not to chastise anyone here, but a reminder that we should be pointing at the Christ and not ourselves. For it is by the Holy Spirit we are sealed His. No work of ours wills this or purchase be made for this.

As John knew as a herald we too as believers should also know that as John said "He must increase, but I must decrease." We too will need to decrease in ourselves and increase in Him. Not in passivity, but in action of faith which does not assure salvation, only demonstrates it!

With Love my brothers and sisters. With a tired heart, but a happy spirit in the knowing of you all who are all bound with love and the Blood of the Lamb, Christ Jesus.
C4E
<><

 

[B-A-C]

I know I am saved not because of any surety on my part, but on the promises made by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ by the Good News I have received from those who were faithful to His commandments. My contribution to my own salvation is zero in and of itself.

How we "get" saved... and how we "stay" saved may not be the same thing.
Perhaps we do nothing to "get" saved. But believe.... yet even belief has to be tested.

So it seems like you saying, I can continue in adultery, pornography, homosexuality, child-molestation, murder
lying and thievery and as long as I believe in Jesus... I've saved.

This is definitely a false doctrine.

 

[robaston]

It is all of God and none of us! Ephesians 2: 8-9 8 For grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; cit is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

this always been what i run to, esp when i err

hey, i don't like the heat in this thread, or maybe i don't like apologetics....praise God for differences!!

 

[RJ]

So it seems like you saying, I can continue in adultery, pornography, homosexuality, child-molestation, murder
lying and thievery and as long as I believe in Jesus... I've saved.

If you are truly "Born Again", with Christ in you, you are saved and don't lust for such things and see them as sinful. Why do legalists always want to prove their point by saying that those of us who live solely by grace, think we can willfully sin. The whole point of a true Christian is one that has a repentant heart and hates sin.

 

[B-A-C]

If you are truly "Born Again", with Christ in you, you are saved and don't lust for such things and see them as sinful. Why do legalists always want to prove their point by saying that those of us who live solely by grace, think we can willfully sin. The whole point of a true Christian is one that has a repentant heart and hates sin.

So you are agreeing... there are conditions and requirements?

 

[robaston]

So you are agreeing... there are conditions and requirements?

grace and faith work together...eph 2:8,9