Join Us Today!

Join our non-denominational community with 10,000+ members and more than 50,000 monthly visitors today. Engage in bible discussions, studies, prayer support and friendly fellowship.

Christian Crusaders

Discussion in 'News Stand' started by Sue J Love, Dec 7, 2015.

  1. Jerry Falwell, Jr., president of Liberty University in Virginia is encouraging his students to get permits to carry concealed weapons on campus, evidently for the purpose to teach Muslims (accused of being terrorists) a lesson, according to this news article: Christian Crusaders Urged to Arm for Liberty | Warren J. Blumenfeld

    Whatever happened to loving our enemies (or those we think are our enemies), praying for them, and doing good to them? Whatever happened to counting it all joy when we are hated and persecuted (or we think people are persecuting us)? Aren't we supposed to be the light of the world and the salt of the earth? Aren't we supposed to take the gospel of salvation to the ends of the earth? When did Christians become so hateful that they shoot first and ask questions later? Satan is our enemy, and he is the father of lies. He wants us to hate and kill each other. Jesus taught the opposite. And, what if we are being lied to with regard to who our real enemies are? What if we are supporting our real enemies, but we are hating those who are not our enemies, other than they may be our enemies from the standpoint of them being enemies of the cross? What if those who are buying into this "hate Muslims" message are falling into a very well laid out trap of the devil? This kind of talk should never be for those who are followers of Jesus Christ. This breaks my heart. I weep over this kind of talk. Two of my adult kids are students at this college. And, this is what they are being taught.
  2. This was in the news yesterday: "Liberty University president Jerry Falwell Jr. urged students Friday to carry concealed weapons on campus to counter any possible armed attack, saying that “we could end those Muslims before they walk in.”

    “Let’s teach them a lesson if they ever show up here,” Falwell told students at the Christian school."

    Liberty University president encourages students to carry guns on campus | Fox News

    I would like very much to learn that somehow this is not true.
  3. When Jesus first came to live with us humans on earth, He promoted peace and brotherhood. Yet when some asked him if they should keep a sword to protect themselves, He said one or two is more than enough for a believer, that we arent to focus on being a death dealer, but to be able to protect ourselves. And when He comes back, He will destroy, He will avenge His children. You can be a sheep offering your throat to anyone who would like to cut it, or you can defend yourself and still be good with the Lord, its up to you.
    Edward likes this.
  4. Matthew 26:51-53: "And behold, one of those who were with Jesus reached and drew out his sword, and struck the slave of the high priest and cut off his ear. Then Jesus *said to him, 'Put your sword back into its place; for all those who take up the sword shall perish by the sword. Or do you think that I cannot appeal to My Father, and He will at once put at My disposal more than twelve legions of angels?'"
  5. That was an offensive action, surely you can the difference. If you cannot, which may be the case, I dont wish to teach a stone.
  6. 2 Co. 6:1-10: And working together with Him, we also urge you not to receive the grace of God in vain— 2 for He says,

    “At the acceptable time I listened to you,
    And on the day of salvation I helped you.”

    Behold, now is “the acceptable time,” behold, now is “the day of salvation”— 3 giving no cause for offense in anything, so that the ministry will not be discredited, 4 but in everything commending ourselves as servants of God, in much endurance, in afflictions, in hardships, in distresses, 5 in beatings, in imprisonments, in tumults, in labors, in sleeplessness, in hunger, 6 in purity, in knowledge, in patience, in kindness, in the Holy Spirit, in genuine love, 7 in the word of truth, in the power of God; by the weapons of righteousness for the right hand and the left, 8 by glory and dishonor, by evil report and good report; regarded as deceivers and yet true; 9 as unknown yet well-known, as dying yet behold, we live; as punished yet not put to death, 10 as sorrowful yet always rejoicing, as poor yet making many rich, as having nothing yet possessing all things.

    2 Co. 10:1-6: By the humility and gentleness of Christ, I appeal to you—I, Paul, who am “timid” when face to face with you, but “bold” toward you when away! 2 I beg you that when I come I may not have to be as bold as I expect to be toward some people who think that we live by the standards of this world. 3 For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does. 4 The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. 5 We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ. 6 And we will be ready to punish every act of disobedience, once your obedience is complete.
  7. Luke 22:35; And He said to them, “When I sent you out without money belt and bag and sandals, you did not lack anything, did you?” They said, “No, nothing.”
    Luke 22:36; And He said to them, “But now, whoever has a money belt is to take it along, likewise also a bag, and whoever has no sword is to sell his coat and buy one.

    Luke 22:38; They said, “Lord, look, here are two swords.” And He said to them, “It is enough.”

    Luke 11:21; When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own house, his possessions are undisturbed.
    Luke 11:22; But when someone stronger than he attacks him and overpowers him, he takes away from him all his armor on which he had relied and distributes his plunder.

    Going out and looking for a war is one thing...
    Being pacifistic and letting them kill you and your family (and your beliefs) without putting up a fight is another.
    Yes, Jesus rebuked Peter for using the sword... but Jesus had to be crucified. Jesus had already rebuked Peter
    for attempting to stop this before.

    Rev 11:3; And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for twelve hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.”
    Rev 11:4; These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth.
    Rev 11:5; And if anyone wants to harm them, fire flows out of their mouth and devours their enemies; so if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this way
    Brad Huber likes this.
  8. B-A-C, In context, Jesus was being accused of casting out demons by Satan, the ruler of demons. Jesus responded to his accusers by telling them that if Satan's kingdom is divided against itself it will not stand. He then told them that if he, Jesus, drove out demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God had come upon them. And, it was at this point that he told the parable which you quoted above. Here is one possible interpretation of the parable:

    Luke 11:21-22 Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Commentary

    21, 22. strong man—meaning Satan.
    armed—pointing to all the subtle and varied methods by which he wields his dark power over men.


    his palace—man whether viewed more largely or in individual souls—how significant of what men are to Satan!

    in peace—undisturbed, secure in his possession.

    22. a stronger than he—Christ: Glorious title, in relation to Satan!
    come upon him and overcome him—sublimely expressing the Redeemer's approach, as the Seed of the woman, to bruise the Serpent's head.

    taketh from him all his armour—"his panoply," "his complete armor." Vain would be the victory, were not the means of regaining his lost power wrested from him. It is this that completes the triumph and ensures the final overthrow of his kingdom.

    So, this passage of scripture can hardly be used as a supportive scripture for arming yourselves. The point of it is to show the vanity of trusting in one's own power to guard one's own possessions (or palace). Certainly this is showing that God/Jesus is more powerful than Satan and all his plans, whims, etc. and that God/Jesus has conquered Satan and will be victorious over him and all his evil plots against us. Scripture is loaded with teachings about the dangers of taking matters into our own hands, and trusting in our own power and resources, and plenty of scriptures teach of the wisdom of trusting in the Lord, for all man's resources and power will be shown for what it is. Better to put our trust in the Lord for our protection and safety, for he is more powerful than any enemy force waged against us. When we put our trust in human methods and reasoning, it may well backfire on us, and that won't be good.
  9. There are differing viewpoints on who these two witnesses are, and whether or not this is to be taken literally or figuratively. If the two witnesses are the old and new testaments, for example, or the law and the prophets, as some people have suggested, the fire coming from their mouths may not be literal fire, but might be messages of judgment, which would devour, and these messages would be fulfilled, and these enemies would die, but at the hand of God. Even if these were two literal men, and they did breathe out literal fire to consume their enemies, it would still be the fires of the judgment of God, for these are God's two witnesses. Yet, this does not teach or encourage all Christians that they can use guns to kill their enemies (or those who they believe to be their enemies). In fact, scripture teaches the opposite. We are instructed to love our enemies, pray for them, do good to them, and bless them, and we are taught to count it all joy when we are persecuted for righteousness' sake.
  10. It is difficult for us to know what was in Jesus' thoughts when he gave these instructions to his disciples. From what I have read so far on these verses, thought is divided on whether or not Jesus' words were to be taken literally or figuratively with regard to the swords, especially since he told them 2 was enough (for 11 disciples), which does not seem enough if they were to be used for self-defense. Swords were certainly used for killing animals for meat or maybe even stabbing fish, or they could be used for cutting away brush or for cutting wood for fire, perhaps, or for killing snakes or other predatory animals who might harm them, so we can't assume they were intended to kill human beings, even in self-defense, especially since scripture, as a whole, in the New Testament, does not advocate Christians using literal weapons of literal warfare against their enemies, but rather preaches against it in so many different ways.

    We have to look at the whole of Jesus' teaching and the teachings of his NT apostles, and we have to compare scripture with scripture in learning what scripture teaches on this subject. I see the argument for self-defense as very weak and not really supported biblically, yet I see much scripture which teaches us that we are not to fight with the weapons of this world, that we are to love our enemies, and that we are to bear the cross in persecution and that vengeance is God's and he will repay. I see where scripture teaches much against trusting in our own resources, and shows the futility of putting our trust in the strength of man. And, I see much encouragement for us to trust in the Lord for our protection and for our safety. He is absolutely sovereign and in control over every aspect of our lives. He can protect us better than any guns, and he can even use us to lead our enemies to Christ rather than kill them. If it is not our time to die, God can even stop bullets. I believe this.
  11. I guess the best thing on this is to be as much like Jesus as we are able. In spite of written words which may not always clear to everyone, Jesus did not from what I in scripture read ever take up a physical sword made of metal as a weapon of offense or defense. His preferred, and likely his only weapon, was the Word of God for defense or offence. What other weapon is needed by a child of the King?

    Regarding defense of the flesh, I will say that we are to be good stewards over all that God has given us. When the time arises, where we or those we care about are under physical attack, should we have a physical sword at hand or the Word of God alive in our hearts? Some might say that we should have both. I won't say absolutely nay with regard to everyone else for I cannot be in everyone else's circumstance to judge in such cases. For me I look always to have that Word alive within me to keep me Alive with the Life that Jesus has brought to us.

    As we are not to live by physical bread alone, are we also not live by the physical sword alone? Here again some will say that they need to have that metal sword by them. That is where they are, but I've never been there. Once I served in Uncle Sam's army and was issued a rifle, but that is not now. During that time, I was not serving God and my trust in Him was minimal. he did keep me, but I really did not then know it.

    As our sister @Sue J Love has said,
    What God did with Jesus He can also do with us. They wanted to kill Jesus before it was his time, but they could not. When it is our time, then it is... Until then while it is day let us do the work that He has for us to do.
    Chloe Z, Sue J Love and Christ4Ever like this.
  12. ^Spiritual and physical. Both are important, if anyone doesnt think so, stop eating.
  13. I understand the desire to protect ourselves, our families and property, but I also feel that it's important to reflect on the unique role we Christians are meant to play in these turbulent times. (That's why I am so glad to see my brothers and sisters discussing it here.) Specifically, I think this is a time to think about the issues on which we are meant to concentrate.

    It is easy to let our fear and sorrow over San Bernardino and other tragic events degenerate into paranoid and violent attitudes--even without our realizing it. This can come at the expense of the compassion, mercy and grace that so many souls ache for at times like these. The unbridled, sacrificial love of Christ is what separates His Church from all other religions, and that same love empowers us to be a distinct light when the world is at its darkest. Keeping this fact in focus helps us obey the command, "do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good" (Romans 12:21).
    Sent from an iPhone
    Sue J Love likes this.
  14. Thank you @amadeus2 . I appreciate you sharing those thoughts. God bless!
  15. @Chloe Z - Very well said! Thank you so much for sharing those thoughts. God bless!
  16. Yes, indeed! Both are important, but let us always remember our priorities:

    "And Jesus answered and said unto her, Martha, Martha, thou art careful and troubled about many things:

    But one thing is needful: and Mary hath chosen that good part, which shall not be taken away from her." Luke 10:41-42
    Chloe Z and Sue J Love like this.
  17. Priorities to be sure, ignoring the physical, and the needs of it, is likewise foolish.
    Why did David eat the showbread? He took that which was holy and profaned it to ease hunger in both himself and his men. And yet God found no fault with him in this. There is some on this thread who cannot understand the teaching of that. The two greatest commandments are to love the Lord AND to love your neighbor as yourself. If you are only trying to do the first, you automatically fail at the first greatest commandment. Martha was also quicker to believe in Christ in the resurrection than was Mary. Would you ignore that?
  18. Jesus Christ used this story of David you have mentioned here to illustrate a point. So, what was the point? The religious leaders (hypocrites) of his day were chastising the Lord's disciples for picking some heads of grain to eat because they were hungry. The problem was that this took place on the Sabbath, and it was against the law to work on the Sabbath, similarly as it was against the law for David to eat the shewbread. So, Jesus Christ used the illustration of David and the shewbread in parallel to what his disciples did to show that mercy triumphs over the letter or the rituals required by law, i.e. to show that the Lord desires mercy over sacrifice. As well, he told them that HE was the Lord of the Sabbath.

    Further on down in the passage Jesus shows that the Pharisees argument (complaint) was hypocritical, because the Pharisees, if they had a sheep that fell into a pit on the Sabbath, would lift it out, showing greater mercy to an animal than they would to human beings who were hungry or who were in need of divine healing. As well, he mentioned how the priests worked on the Sabbath, and yet were innocent. In another passage of scripture Jesus taught that he made the Sabbath for man, not man for the Sabbath. In other words, especially then, the people worked every day from sun up to sun down, and perhaps even after sun down, so they needed a day of rest and day given wholly unto the Lord to worship him. So, the rule about not working was for their good, but was not to be used as an instrument of injustice as a hammer over the people's heads in place of divine mercy. It is better to follow the spirit of the law rather than the letter of the law, i.e. mercy is better than sacrifice. There are some today who would twist this principle to their advantage in order to teach a false gospel, but that is another subject.

    Yet, I fail to see how you are applying this story about David, which Jesus also used to teach a lesson on mercy, with the subject of the O.P. If we are truly loving God with all our strength, minds and souls, and we are loving our neighbors as ourselves, truly we would not be telling people to shoot first and ask questions later. We would not be encouraging them to believe whatever the news media is spewing out or our government or church leaders are spewing out in trying to get us to fear, hate and kill those they claim are our enemies, but who may not be our enemies at all. It is not loving God or our neighbors to encourage people to get guns in order to teach our neighbors a lesson or to take them out first before they can take us out. They need Jesus.

    We should be praying for those who we perceive to be our enemies, as well as for those who are are real enemies, though we may not recognize them as such, and we should be kind to them and should do good to them, and we should show them mercy, though mercy as Jesus demonstrated, not as the world might teach. And, we should trust the Lord Jesus with our lives, and rest in the shelter of his protection (his wings). He will not leave us or forsake us. He has appointed a day for each of us to die. We will not die before that time. We have to believe in his sovereignty. The children of Israel of old were in hot water because they trusted in human resources and the strength of armies instead of trusting in the Lord for their protection. May we learn a lesson from that.

    “God is our refuge and strength,
    A very present help in trouble.
    Therefore we will not fear, though the earth should change
    And though the mountains slip into the heart of the sea;
    Though its waters roar and foam,
    Though the mountains quake at its swelling pride.” Psa. 46:1-3 NASB

    “The Lord is my light and my salvation;
    Whom shall I fear?
    The Lord is the defense of my life;
    Whom shall I dread?
    When evildoers came upon me to devour my flesh,
    My adversaries and my enemies, they stumbled and fell.
    Though a host encamp against me,
    My heart will not fear;
    Though war arise against me,
    In spite of this I shall be confident.” Psa. 27:1-3 NASB
  19. Obviously.
    And neither did I say that. You attempt to put words in my mouth to make yourself sound more righteous than anyone who would disagree with you. Do you do this often?

    And neither would I. You chose to believe certain things regardless of what any news outlet says, unless it agrees with your preconceived belief. If you utilize the Holy Spirit to uncover the truth, you can see some truths amidst the many, many lies. It is the way of the evil one and his servants to promote half lies/half truths to encourage belief. I have been gifted a lot of discernment, perhaps you have not.

    I have no guns (short of a bb gun, which doesnt work, I dont include that for obvious reasons), and of course they need Jesus. But neither do I want to disarm everyone and call people foolish for wanting to protect themselves against the evils of this world. Not everyone has faith enough to trust in the Lord, no matter what, and you would help encourage them to bare their throats to the wolves despite their fear. God lovingly gives us choice, but you promote taking that choice away. To shame them into taking the choice you would have them take. That sounds just as manipulative as the pharisees wanting to control the faith of others.

    I agree! And you seem to be the one who wants to choose for others what those enemies are. The spiritual war that we are in is more important to be fought than the physical, but God puts his chosen people into situations that requires the strength of arm and eye that HE promotes and strengthens against all odds. Again, we are in a "real" world with physical bodies, not just spiritual one. God has throughout scripture used "real people" to protect others, God prefers to use us to bring His will upon this earth, rather than just doing everything Himself. He wants us grown christians, not baby christians, who want a sugar daddy to take care of our every need.

    They got in trouble because their hearts turned away from serving the Lord "however" He wanted them to. They wanted a king, with an army, so that most didnt have to fight. The kings wanted alliances with evil nations, so they didnt have to fight but simply make other nations afraid to attack for possible retribution. They were cowards whose hearts were far from the Lord, and that sounds similar to what you want christians to be.
  20. @Brad Huber - I don't know how to do the quotes and responses like you did, so I put our names before the words each of us spoke here:

    Brad: And neither did I say that. You attempt to put words in my mouth to make yourself sound more righteous than anyone who would disagree with you. Do you do this often?

    Sue: I was not attempting to put words in your mouth. In context, I was making reference to the O.P. which was about the speech J. Falwell, Jr. gave to his students in which he said that if the students would arm themselves, “We could end those Muslims before they walk in.” He said, “Before they walk in,” meaning before it was even evident that they were even there, or that they had weapons, or that they intended to kill anyone. He also said that if they ever show up here, meaning at their school, “Let’s teach them a lesson.” This sounds like “shoot first and ask questions later.” That is what I referring to. I was wondering how what you said (in your words) fit with the O.P., so I was questioning it.

    Brad: And neither would I. You chose to believe certain things regardless of what any news outlet says, unless it agrees with your preconceived belief. If you utilize the Holy Spirit to uncover the truth, you can see some truths amidst the many, many lies. It is the way of the evil one and his servants to promote half lies/half truths to encourage belief. I have been gifted a lot of discernment, perhaps you have not.

    Sue: Brad, my previous beliefs were to believe whatever the government and media told me. I was a flag waving patriot who pledged allegiance to this republic of the USA, and I didn’t question them. I voted straight Republican and believed we were the “good guys.” I rooted for G.W. Bush during the election of 2000 when the “hanging chad” issue in Florida was in the news. I believed everything they told me. That is the way I was raised.

    But, in 2004, the Lord began to show me that a lot of what I believed was a lie. He began to open my eyes to see that we live in a time of great deception, and that not everything is what it appears to be on the outside, or what is presented to us by the government and media. God, by his Spirit, began to show me the truth behind many of the lies. And, he does this one news story at a time. Each day I read the Word, and each day he talks to me and shows me how the Word can be or is to be applied to my life and my world today.

    Sometimes he leads me to read news stories, only he lets me see them through his eyes. And, I choose to believe him. After 11 years of reading these news stories, and listening to the Lord, and doing a lot of reading (research), I have gained a certain amount of knowledge concerning the workings of the US government, the media, the UN, the “international community,” the Elite & NATO, etc., so to a certain extent, that knowledge does impact the way I read the news now, yet it is the Holy Spirit who gives me the understanding the Lord wants me to have concerning current events and how they relate to the Word of God today. If one does the research, and looks into these things, I believe it will be quite obvious what is going on and where this is all headed. It is pretty open now.

    Brad: I have no guns (short of a bb gun, which doesnt work, I dont include that for obvious reasons), and of course they need Jesus. But neither do I want to disarm everyone and call people foolish for wanting to protect themselves against the evils of this world. Not everyone has faith enough to trust in the Lord, no matter what, and you would help encourage them to bare their throats to the wolves despite their fear. God lovingly gives us choice, but you promote taking that choice away. To shame them into taking the choice you would have them take. That sounds just as manipulative as the pharisees wanting to control the faith of others.

    Sue: I have no desire to manipulate or shame anyone. I believe what J. Falwell, Jr. was teaching his students is contrary to the teachings of Jesus and of his NT apostles, and that what he told them is wrong, is dangerous, is hateful, is ignorant of the truth of the situation, and it is going to lead to something not good, in particular it is walking right into the hands of Obama, the Pope and others who are preaching against the kind of religious extremism which leads to violence, and against what they consider to be “hate crimes,” and it is only going to open up the door for Christians in America to come under severe persecution. I am also concerned for the safety of those students who may arm themselves and in an emotional situation start shooting and kill innocents and/or enemies, when we are taught to love, not kill, and that they may end up killing one another, too. I attended a neighbor college to Kent State during the Kent State shootings of 1970, so I witnessed first-hand the emotionally charged situation on my own campus, and I know what a danger that can be.

Share This Page

Users Who Have Read This Thread (Total: 0)