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Christ in the Bible Part 2

Member
Christ in the Bible Part 2

To the sadness of many, most Christian preachers today have forgotten about Jesus as their God. All you have to do is listen to them for five minutes and you will see what I mean. And too, it seems that they have completely forgotten about the words of the Apostle Thomas as he looked on Jesus in the Upper Room and said of him, "My Lord and my God." And the words of Jesus that he said to Thomas, "You believe because you have seen me. But blessed are they who haven't seen me and believe anyway."

This means that we have known that Jesus is God, the one true God, the one who came and died for the sins of the world, ever since the days of the prophets and apostles. It was Jesus himself who put the thought in our minds, just as he did for Thomas that night in the Upper Room. So just because our preachers today will not tell us that Jesus is the God we should pray to, does not make it not so. What I am saying is, any teachings to the contrary is a direct contradiction of what Thomas said to Jesus that fateful night. Read it for yourself! (John 21:28-29)

See, with Jesus it's just a matter of belief. That is to say, to believe that he is God who has come to save us from sin by dying in our place on the cross. That is what faith is, true faith. Any other faith is a false faith.

See, Jesus as YHWH God proclaims himself as the only Savior in Isaiah 45:21-23. "Consult together, argue your case," he said, "and state your case that I am not the only true God. … For there is no other God but me, a just God and your only Savior, no not one." And this was long before modern scholars messed thing up by inventing the idea that there are 2 or 3 Gods. That is to say, the idea of more than one being as God was an abomination to the prophets of old, and a horrible offense to God himself. So now we can finally understand what Jesus meant when he said in Matthew 24:15 that the time would come when we would see this abomination that causes desolation proclaimed openly in the Church, causing much distress and tribulation.

And to put it mildly, this abomination of desolation is the work of Satan, from which we are told to flee.

Jesus continues his dialogue in verse 22 by saying: "Let all the world look to me for salvation." That is to say that this is especially true for us today.

So the mistake the modern preachers make is misunderstanding the way God as Jesus speaks to us. But for us to go out of our way not to know him is another thing, something akin to what Moses went through as he came down from the mountain; and something Jesus is not pleased with. See, we must understand that, yes, God is one person. We saw this when he was born on earth, and when he hung on the cross to purge away our sins. But we must also understand that God is like an actor playing 3 parts at the same time, and each part is him. See, every time he mentions the Father or the Holy Spirit he is speaking about himself, but by his other names. This is why he speaks of the Father and the Holy Spirit as God, too.

I bet you never thought of this!

What he is doing for us is revealing his other names to us so we can know him better; but he is doing it in a parabolic way. In fact, Jesus always spoke to the people in parables. But when he was along with the disciples he would explain to them what he meant.

This is a summary of the Gospel message Jesus wants us to preach to the people: The Lord the prophet Isaiah knew as YHWH God in the Old Testament is the New Testament Jesus. And the very one who saved his people out of Egypt by opening the Red Sea. And the very one who will save us now if we put our trust in him. And that there is forgiveness of sins in his name.

Now there is a lot more I can say on this subject, but I don't have the time now. But I must clear up one last misunderstanding. We read in the Book of Revelation statements like this. "This is a revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave to him," and "... the Lamb. … took the scroll from the right hand of the one sitting on the throne." And the statement that Daniel made in Daniel 7: "I saw someone like a son of man coming on he clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient One and was led into his presence," and similar other statements. These are parabolic statements saying that Jesus as God wears more than one hat and does more than one thing at the same time. And since Jesus is the Almighty God, we should not be surprised that he can do this. See, Jesus not only has multipresence, he has everywhere presence, too. So let's not try to limit Jesus by things we don't understand, or try to contend with him from a limited point of view . Rather, lets ask Jesus to help us to understand, and he will!

So, this means that the term "Son of God is parabolic, too; something to explain his stay on earth as a man. And, something we are not to try to make a literal thing, as if he were a man having a son! As Paul, speaking of him in his glorified state, said of him in Philippians 2:9-11, "Therefore Jesus as God elevated him to the place of highest honor and gave him a name high above all other names." This is because Jesus is the name by which God saves us, and not by his other two names. Paul continues: "... that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on the earth and under the earth, and every tongue should confess that Jesus is God, to the glory of God the Father." And as I said above, the Father is his other name!


Rev. Autrey
 
Loyal
For clarity: the Statement of Faith that TalkJesus adheres to says

We believe in one God revealed in three persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost...making up the blessed Trinity
There's a link to the whole statement at the foot of this page.

Do you affirm or deny this?
 
Member
"We believe in one God revealed in three persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost...making up the blessed Trinity"
Do you affirm or deny this?

I repeat again, the Bible is very clear on this: there is only one being called God. Deut. 6:4 states: "Hear O Israel. The Lord our God is one person. And you must love Him. …" That is to say, no Biblical scholar can in good faith accuse Moses of being anything except Monotheist (the worship of one being). The Trinity then is in the way he speaks of himself. So yes, he speaks of himself as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, but in all cases he is talking about himself. Lets say it like this, when he says "the Father sent me" or "I go to the Father' or "in my Fathers house", he is speaking about himself by his other name. And this is true of the Holy Spirit, too. But in his everyday speech he always speaks to us as Jesus.

Rev. Autrey
 
Loyal
I'm very skeptical about that interpretation. Matthew records Jesus' praying in the garden of Gethsemane:

“My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.”

But what he acutally meant was:

“Myself, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as I will.”

???
 
Member
I'm very skeptical about that interpretation. Matthew records Jesus' praying in the garden of Gethsemane:

“My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.”

But what he acutally meant was:

“Myself, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as I will.”

???
You must remember that God existed as a person long before he made the angels and man. And since there was no one else to talk to he talked among himself. Or we can say, he talked things over in his mind. And you as an intelligent human made n God's image should understand this because as humans we do the same thing. We often times discuss a situation within ourselves until we come up with an answer. So what we see taking place in the garden of Gethsemane is a continuation of the conversation God has had within himself from eternity. That is to say, God as Jesus talks to God as the Father to solve a problem. We don't hear what God says as the Father because God never speaks to us as the Father. We only hear what God as Jesus says. Only in the garden Jesus did it in the form of a prayer to teach us that we too should pray.

I hope this helps you to know God better.

Rev. Autrey
 
Loyal
The US government has 3 branches, the legislative, executive and judicial, but it isn't three governments, it's just one.
A tricycle has three wheels, but it isn't three tricycles, just one.
An egg has a shell, an egg-white, and a yolk, but it isn't three eggs.

One God, three beings. Not the same being with three names.

Luke 3:22; and the Holy Spirit descended upon Him in bodily form like a dove, and a voice came out of heaven, "You are My beloved Son, in You I am well-pleased."

Jesus was in the flesh on the earth, the dove came down upon Him. (You can not come down upon yourself). and a voice from Heaven called Him my Son. It wasn't His own voice.

Gen 1:26; Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."

"our" image is a plural word. Not a "one being" word.

1Pet 3:21; Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
1Pet 3:22; who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him.

You can't sit at the right hand of yourself.
 
Member
The US government has 3 branches, the legislative, executive and judicial, but it isn't three governments, it's just one.
A tricycle has three wheels, but it isn't three tricycles, just one.
An egg has a shell, an egg-white, and a yolk, but it isn't three eggs.

One God, three beings. Not the same being with three names.

Luke 3:22; and the Holy Spirit descended upon Him in bodily form like a dove, and a voice came out of heaven, "You are My beloved Son, in You I am well-pleased."

Jesus was in the flesh on the earth, the dove came down upon Him. (You can not come down upon yourself). and a voice from Heaven called Him my Son. It wasn't His own voice.

Gen 1:26; Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."

"our" image is a plural word. Not a "one being" word.

1Pet 3:21; Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
1Pet 3:22; who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him.

You can't sit at the right hand of yourself.
What you are saying may sound logical to you and the people who came up with the doctrine of 3 separate God hundreds of years after the Bible was closed. And this is especially true if you chose to disregard what is plainly taught in the Bible before. For instance Moses said in Deuteronomy 6:4: "Hear O Israel! The Lord our God is one person, the Lord alone. And you must love him. …"

And again, this is what God as Jesus says about himself in Isaiah 45: "Was it not I the Lord? For there is no other God but me, a just God and your only Savior; no not one. Let all the world look to me for salvation!" And the meaning of these verses can't be changed by not understanding other verses that are not so plain or that are symbolic and poetic. In other words, the same God that Moses wrote about is the same God who saves us now. So as it says in Luke 24: "Then Jesus quoted passages from the writings of Moses and all the prophets, explaining what all the Scriptures said about himself."

So here is the bottom line: We are talking about one God with three names. And not three separate God's. Such a thought was an abomination to Moses and the prophets. And it should be an abomination to us. Moses was Monotheistic. It was the other nations that was Polytheistic.

Now about the verse that says (Luke 3:22) "And the Holy Spirit descended upon Him in bodily form like a dove, and a voice came out of heaven, "You are My beloved Son, in You I am well-pleased.'" And since we know that the Holy Spirit is one of God's other names, this is a symbolic way of saying that as a man in human flesh God was with him. See don't forget that Jesus was a man as well as God. And too, Since God always speaks to us as Jesus, the voice they heard was Jesus speaking about himself, something that a God with all power is allowed to do.

Now here is the meaning of "At the right hand of God." In the days of the prophets people wanted to know how YHWH Jesus delivered the Jews from Egypt. He said that he did it by his strong right hand. So what God's right hand does, he does. And then when Jesus was on trial before the High Priest, he said that they would see him sitting at the right hand of God. This was his symbolic way of saying that, yes, I am God. This is why the High Priest tore his clothing and condemned Jesus for blasphemy.

I don't have time now to explain the other verses. That will be for another time.

Rev. Autrey
 
Moderator
Staff Member
Greetings,

i can't say i agree with your method of putting 'it' all together. A lot based on what you appear to be comfortable with but with no solid back-up.

It is not so much about if i agree or not but the fact that you are presenting your ideas with words and phrases that have no obvious Scriptural references. For example,
This was his symbolic way of saying that
This is why the High Priest tore his clothing and condemned Jesus for blasphemy.
Now here is the meaning of
See don't forget that Jesus was a man as well as God. And too, Since God always speaks to us as Jesus, the voice they heard was Jesus speaking about himself, something that a God with all power is allowed to do.
And since we know that the Holy Spirit is one of God's other names, this is a symbolic way of saying that as a man in human flesh God was with him.
this is what God as Jesus says about himself
So here is the bottom line: We are talking about one God with three names
and that is only from your last post.

Please don't take this personally.


Bless you ....><>
 
Member
As I have already said, hardly anyone today agrees with the idea that Jesus is our long awaited God, the one the prophets said was coming to saves us. This is because this message is not being taught anymore, and has not been for many years. But Isaiah 35:4-7 says it like this: "Be strong, and do not fear, for your God is coming . … to save you. And when he comes, he will open the eyes of the blind and unstop the ears of the deaf. The lame will leap like a deer, and those who could not speak will shout and sing. …" This is an unmistakable reference to the work Jesus would do for us when he came to earth.
But I don't want to offend you or your members in any way. So if you don't want me to post anymore on this forum, I wont. God bless you too!
Rev. Autrey
 
Active
As I have already said, hardly anyone today agrees with the idea that Jesus is our long awaited God, the one the prophets said was coming to saves us. This is because this message is not being taught anymore, and has not been for many years. But Isaiah 35:4-7 says it like this: "Be strong, and do not fear, for your God is coming . … to save you. And when he comes, he will open the eyes of the blind and unstop the ears of the deaf. The lame will leap like a deer, and those who could not speak will shout and sing. …" This is an unmistakable reference to the work Jesus would do for us when he came to earth
John 14:10 "....the words that I speak to you I speak not of myself; but the Father that dwelleth IN ME, HE doeth the works."
Acts 2:22 " Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth A MAN, approved of God among you by miracles wonders and signs, WHICH GOD DID by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know."

Deut 18:18 "I will raise them up a PROPHET from among their brethren, like unto thee (Moses), and will PUT MY WORDS IN HIS MOUTH; and he shall speak unto them all that I SHALL COMMAND HIM."


I believe your getting confused with the fact that God was IN Christ Jesus reconciling the world unto himself. It was God that did the works as Jesus plainly states
in John 14:10, and Luke in Acts 2:22 .And foretold by God himself in Deut 18:18. And Jesus says also that the words he speaks are those of God, as God also testifies to
in Deut 18:18.

I really do not understand how you can confuse Jesus as God when both Jesus and God tell us the exact opposite of what you are trying to teach.
 
Active
"Though he were a Son yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And BEING MADE PERFECT, HE BECAME THE AUTHOR OF ETERNAL SALVATION
unto all them that obey him."

Obedience to who? Himself or his Father?
What need to be MADE PERFECT if he was God to begin with?

But after being perfected HE BECAME the author of eternal salvation. This is when God passed the torch to his Son whom had been given ALL power in heaven and in earth
AFTER his crucifixion and being resurrected by his Father God.
 
Member
Greetings,

i can't say i agree with your method of putting 'it' all together. A lot based on what you appear to be comfortable with but with no solid back-up.

It is not so much about if i agree or not but the fact that you are presenting your ideas with words and phrases that have no obvious Scriptural references. For example,








and that is only from your last post.

Please don't take this personally.


Bless you ....><>
Dear Br. Bear-Moderator:

As I said before, I don't want to upset you or your readers. So if you are saying that you do not want me to post anymore, I wont!
Please respond!

Rev. Autrey
 
Moderator
Staff Member
Dear Br. Bear-Moderator:

As I said before, I don't want to upset you or your readers. So if you are saying that you do not want me to post anymore, I wont!
Please respond!

Rev. Autrey

Greetings,

thank you for your reply.

Often things do upset others BUT God has given us the remedy for such occasions. We all need to use more preventative measures that try to fix the aftermath when something goes wrong.

Perhaps you could extend your study to look at the remedy we have in Christ? (totally up to you, though)

No, I am not saying for you to not post anymore.
Have you ever heard or read someone professing to explain something but they use lots of loose ends and unanswered or even un-related additives to 'back up' their teaching/preaching and do so either because they don't know what to say, they are simply trying from their strength to teach something they have 'learnt' from somewhere (other than the Lord), or they add extra bits for 'strengthening their concrete', to sell their idea or 'teaching' for whatever purpose they do so.
I am NOT saying you do any of these, so please do not mis-read me. However, please do not be so stupid (as i have often been over my little lifetime) to discard the possibility of finding some truth in any of the above. We all need to ask the Lord to examine us and help us to stay on the right and narrow path, to only have His Light as our lamp.

My suggestion, originally, though possibly not explained properly (forgive me if that is the case), is/was for you to put a little more effort into what you actually write and to forego things that have no solid basis or back up through and with direct Scripture. A little precept upon precept, line upon line, sort of thing, instead of a little phrase inserted here and there that could be better either said/written or better explained or even left out completely.

We don't need to sell the Gospel. The Lord has given the means for His Word to go forth and accomplish that which it is sent to do and not return to Him void.

Perhaps the bottom line of what i am saying/writing, is that if we let the Bible speak, it will. Some will listen some will not. Some will understand and others not. Some will seek and others will not. We are dealing with the Spirit verses the Flesh or carnal mind and understanding. Adding anything to the Gospel will not make it any more sense to the unconverted but it will bug the converted as they see it is not 'true'.[ie, an additive]

May i also confess that i am no authority on most things and i do not consider myself a better teacher than yourself nor do i suggest i have greater knowledge or revelation and all the above is laid out in love.

thank you again for your reply,


Bless you ....><>
 
Member
I can plainly see that you are saying that I am unlearned about matters of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and that I do not know what I am talking about. So I will not trouble you or your people anymore about Jesus being our God. And I will not try to explain to you anymore what Thomas meant in the Upper Room when He called Jesus "MY Lord and my God." And I will not try to explain to you what Psalm 45 means when it says, "I will recite a lovely poem to the King. … Your throne O God endures forever and ever. … And most assuredly, I will not try to tell you the meaning of the words of John the Apostle in John1:1 when he said of Jesus: "... and he was God."

That is to say, by what you are saying of me, there men did not know what they were talking about either! So I will not be posting in your forum anymore. In turn, I will take my preaching to those who count themselves worthy to hear it.

Rev. Autrey
 
Moderator
Staff Member
Greetings,

I can plainly see that you are saying that I am unlearned about matters of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and that I do not know what I am talking about. So I will not trouble you or your people anymore about Jesus being our God. And I will not try to explain to you anymore what Thomas meant in the Upper Room when He called Jesus "MY Lord and my God." And I will not try to explain to you what Psalm 45 means when it says, "I will recite a lovely poem to the King. … Your throne O God endures forever and ever. … And most assuredly, I will not try to tell you the meaning of the words of John the Apostle in John1:1 when he said of Jesus: "... and he was God."

That is to say, by what you are saying of me, there men did not know what they were talking about either! So I will not be posting in your forum anymore. In turn, I will take my preaching to those who count themselves worthy to hear it.

Rev. Autrey
May i suggest you get your eyesight checked? What you say you can plainly see, was never in my thoughts nor, may i say, my words used.

I do encourage you to take a look at your reaction to this and see if there might be a better way to react? I say that in love, whether you believe me or not.

If you choose to not continue here, that is your choice. I certainly did not have that intention when originally posting here or my follow-up post.
====================

please also note that at no point have i challenged anything you posted regarding the subject you are attempting to share here. Presuming my thoughts or opinions is not all that beneficial. I happen to like the subject you have endeavored to present.

Perhaps you are not much of a teacher, BUT let it be known that if i conveyed the wrong idea to you, then i can not be any better! At least one of us is in need and i venture to suggest that we both are. A good place to begin fellowship. Two acknowledging their need for that which is better, for the right way, God's way, Who we know was made manifest and dwelt among us.....

is God Jesus ... is Jesus God...? If so, then how so? If not, then what do we do with all the Scripture that indicates that Jesus is God?
It is a good topic.

Feel free to continue.


Bless you ....><>
 
Moderator
Staff Member
ps...

I will take my preaching to those who count themselves worthy to hear it.
I don't count myself worthy of anything and i am not too sure that others here feel any different.
Could you please help me understand how i or anyone else is meant to count ourselves worthy to hear your preaching?


Bless you ....><>
 
Member
Greetings,



May i suggest you get your eyesight checked? What you say you can plainly see, was never in my thoughts nor, may i say, my words used.

I do encourage you to take a look at your reaction to this and see if there might be a better way to react? I say that in love, whether you believe me or not.

If you choose to not continue here, that is your choice. I certainly did not have that intention when originally posting here or my follow-up post.
====================

please also note that at no point have i challenged anything you posted regarding the subject you are attempting to share here. Presuming my thoughts or opinions is not all that beneficial. I happen to like the subject you have endeavored to present.

Perhaps you are not much of a teacher, BUT let it be known that if i conveyed the wrong idea to you, then i can not be any better! At least one of us is in need and i venture to suggest that we both are. A good place to begin fellowship. Two acknowledging their need for that which is better, for the right way, God's way, Who we know was made manifest and dwelt among us.....

is God Jesus ... is Jesus God...? If so, then how so? If not, then what do we do with all the Scripture that indicates that Jesus is God?
It is a good topic.

Feel free to continue.


Bless you ....><>
Dear Br. Bear:

I think that I misunderstood what you were saying to me, and for this I apologize. You are right in saying that "Who we know was made manifest and dwelt among us..…" And you are sure right in saying : "is God Jesus … is Jesus God...? If so, then how so? If not, then what do we do with all the Scripture that indicates that Jesus is God? It is a good topic." So then I will direct my future comments solely to you because you seem to be well versed in the teachings of Jesus.

We must understand that the idea of Jesus being the one true God who came to earth to give his life or his people has not been preached for many years, if not hundreds of years. So when we hear it for the first time it is difficult for us to accept it. And even more difficult for us to wrap our minds around it. I know that this is the way is was for me. But in my next comments I will began with what the Apostle John said in John 1:1 and go from there since it is a verse most people have heard before. God bless you.

Rev. Autrey
 
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