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Discussion in 'The Library' started by B-A-C, Jul 26, 2016.

  1. First chapter so far..

    Thoughts..Bonhoeffer was reacting against the Lutheran church?
    Although he hasn't mentioned it yet.. I was thinking he could just title his writing..or treatise 'Faith without works is dead.'

    Sad about what happened in Germany. So did not Lutherans realise they were saved to do good works that our Heavenly Father has prepared for us to do? Did they just parrot the slogan 'faith alone'?
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  2. Yes faith without works is dead would be a fair summary.

    Bonhoeffer was a prominent Lutheran pastor - which makes his critique all the more powerful. The Lutheran church was co-opted by the national socialists and was largely impotent to counter the rise of Hitler's ideologies.

    He and like minded pastors formed the confessing church.

    A good biography is 'prophet, pastor, spy' if you are interested.
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  3. There arent many Lutheran churches in nz. Lots of other churches but no lutherans in my area..
    Although when I come across german people, which is few and far between, they tend to be into rudolf steiner philosophies.
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  4. Have finished reading this book.

    Lots of deep thoughts the main thing I got was sharing in the sufferings of something that the saints go through. And that is testing our faith.
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  5. Thanks for the recommendation will be interested to read this book.
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  6. Have now started reading this bio Bonhoeffer pastor, prophet, martyr, spy.

    I didnt know hardly anything about him so be interesting, it says he was in the plot to assassinate Hitler? But he got found out and was sentenced to death in a concentration camp.

    Which is kind of weird because I thought christians were meant to pray for their enemies, not plot to assassinate them..? Maybe he was falsely accused???
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  7. Still reading it. Finding it real sad and shocking what happened to the german christians under Hitler.

    Isnt it interesting that the German Shepherd looks just like a wolf? Its a dog!
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  8. This book is long...its about 500 something pages! 3/4 way there....
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  9. Finally finished this bio!

    It was long..and also creepy what Hitler did. But...Im still not really clear why they tried to blow him up with a bomb. I mean if you were to assasinate someone, perish the thought, why use a bomb. Couldnt you just knock him out with a stone? Bombs blow up everyone and everything else as well. Not sure what the justification to conspire against Hitler when God has said vengeance is mine I will repay.

    Good bio but My thoughts are it wasnt fair on Bonhoeffers fiance... but I guess I wasnt there at the time. The lies people had to put up with are unbelievable.
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  10. I found disturbing in this book that the bomb that tried to blow up Hitler ended up killing someone else who was innocent.

    Of course Hitler indirectly killed a lot of people and then killed himself. But several things about Bonhoeffer arent clear either for example why did he want to visit Gandhi and learn from a hindu?
    Bonhoeffer was into ecumenism as well. He wasnt evangelical and didnt exactly preach the gospel he trained people who were 'confirmed' into his church.
    The other thing is he liked to smoke, was more into theological debate than anything, learned from Karl Barth and other philosophers, and he put his fiance through the emotional wringer it seems.

    Many people might say Lord Lord didnt we cast out demons in your name? So...not quite sure that Bonhoeffer was the martyr and prophet eric metataxes claims. He did think that to deceive was acceptable but one thing was arent we to pray for our enemies and bless those who persecute you? Not conspire to assassinate them? That is one thing this biography kind of glosses over.

    The cost of discipleship really was Jesus life, which make us free because salvation is a gift given to us we dont have to earn it, yet we then walk in the spirit. I think there are several things about Bonhoeffer that dont add up in that biography. If we submit to God, resist the devil, he will flee I dont think its wise to go after devils and think killing someone is going to be the answer, the biography was very short on what happened after bonhoeffer was sentenced and killed and whether his actions made any difference when Hitler killed himself anyway. I mean I dont know if it means we take vengeance and go acting like terrorists and try to blow up leaders like guy fawkes. Even if they are evil I mean Daniel and his friends did not go around trying to kill King Nebuchadnezzar and David did not kill King Saul even though was mad and crazy....
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  11. Jesus also didnt go round conspiring to get rid of King Herod by calling fire down from heaven even though King Herod killed his cousin John. I mean Jesus didnt pretend to conform to the kingdoms of this world. I dont know thats troubling because Bonhoeffer actually was guilty of trying to blow up hitler I mean he wasnt innocent like Jesus was. Jesus says he was establishing a spiritual kingdom not an earthly one and he didnt try to subvert the caesar by assasination...or join in with the Pharisees and then overthrow them by a coup.

    I dont know, what do others think.
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  12. There are probably many who agree with your thinking on this. Unfortunately some who do agree may be unwilling to do anything that would sacrifice of their own comfort to support a change for the good.
  13. I dont know that he sacrified his comfort as he was intending to marry his fiance rather than call off the engagement and just left her emotionally hanging....and I know obedience (to God) is actually better than sacrifice.

    I can see how he might have thought it was justified but then muslims do the same thing, they think to take others lives and then their own via terrorist attacks and bombs is doing God a service.

    Its troubling whatever way you look at it because there were many christians who at the time made a difference eg corrie ten boom and her sister and did not take the deceit and conspiracy route that Bonhoeffer took.

    The bio claimed that Bonhoeffer pretended to be an innocent pastor but he was all the time trying to subvert the nazi govt and joined one of the military groups. Not the gestapo but the other one. I think it does my head in a bit and the bio was a bit waffly on what really happened I think it tried to make out that Bonhoeffer was genuinely selfless but some things just dont add up in his narrative of events.
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  14. I mean the bio was confusing I dont mean to say Bonhoeffer was right or wrong but at first without knowing everything I would have thought Bonhoeffer was not part of any conspiracy plot to kill Hitler because christians do not murder or have anger in their heart and leave vengeance to God.

    Some accounts maintain that Bonhoeffer was rescuing jews from the nazis since some married into his family and that was what he was arrested for that.

    So am not sure that the bio is entirely accurate...according to the bio he was part of 'operation valkyrie' that failed as the bomb went off and killed someone else but weeks later Hitler took his own life. But there was not a lot of detail about those events that led to that in this book.
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