Calvin said??

[Brighthouse]

Last night,for the first time since I have been here,I got disturbed,we know, that the Word cannot lie!! Titus 1:2 Calvin has 5 main points in there belief,we also know, that if any one of them can be proved as false then the whole doctrine is as well.So I will only make one point on ther herersy! Calvin taught the jesus only died for saved people. WRONG!!! here is proof for you to look at!! 1 John 2:2,2 Cor 5:15 1 Tim 1:15,2 peter 3:9 All men can repent, For God is not willing that ANY!!! should perish, but have everlasting life!! Acts 20:20,Matt 28:19-20 1 John 2:2-3 FREE WILL!! So those who believe in this,should consider Christ,and not this herersy!! I did not know much about this man until yesterday,I sure do now!! Hope this helps all of you!! To believe the Word is one thing,but to twist it to something perverted,is quite another!! Calvin died for no one!! and Jesus said he is the ONLY WAY!! John 14:6 . I will trust in the Truth,not a lie from someone who did nothing for me!! amen!

 

[Dreamer]

Amen, brighthouse. The idea that only the predestined are to be saved is disturbing and is an opposing view to the bible. God wants that no would should perish.

 

[Boanerges]

1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Predestination is according to foreknowledge and that knowledge is of our choice. It is no surprise that God knows who will come but His call was to the whole world non the less.
From The Vines Expository Dictionary of the New Testament:

Foreknow, Foreknowledge-

A. Verb.
proginosko (G4267), "to know before" (pro, "before," ginosko, "to know"), is used (a) of divine knowledge, concerning (1) Christ, 1Pe_1:20, RV, "foreknown" (KJV, "foreordained"); (2) Israel as God's earthly people, Rom_11:2; (3) believers, Rom_8:29; "the foreknowledge" of God is the basis of His foreordaining counsels; (b) of human knowledge, (1) of persons, Act_26:5; (2) of facts, 2Pe_3:17.

Noun.
prognosis (G4268), "a foreknowledge" (akin to A.), is used only of divine "foreknowledge," Act_2:23; 1Pe_1:2. "Foreknowledge" is one aspect of omniscience; it is implied in God's warnings, promises and predictions. See Act_15:18. God's "foreknowledge" involves His electing grace, but this does not preclude human will. He "foreknows" the exercise of faith which brings salvation. The apostle Paul stresses especially the actual purposes of God rather than the ground of the purposes, see, e.g., Gal_1:16; Eph_1:5, Eph_1:11. The divine counsels will ever be unthwartable. Cf. FORESHEW.

So when examining this issue closely it is easy to discern that predestination is based on God's foreknowledge of individual choice.
A specific example of God's reaction to man being based on choice can be found here:
Isa 66:4 I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.
God clearly moves here based on their choices.
Jesus opened the way to all but not all will come. Those who will come are foreknown by God and He moves heaven and earth to bring them to just the right circumstance to open their hearts.
Doubtless you will receive many other opinions on this but hold fast to the knowledge that the God of love choose you out of love and in full knowledge of your heart my friend.
Many blessings in His Name,
your brother Larry.

 

[Brother Mike]

Election doctrine

Brighthouse There are many forms of the Election doctrine. Those that follow Calvin do not follow everything, and there are different thoughts to Election.

There is Election in the Bible. God chooses your place in the Body of Christ. Are you a ear, or eye?? God has a plan for you because he made you with abilities inside that can complete that plan.

Outside of that, there is no other picking and choosing. For God so loved the WORLD!!!! That is everyone, and everybody has been chosen to be born again. God is not a respecter of persons.

There is a theory that man can not have faith to be born again, unless God just puts it there. If God puts it there then that person can receive the Word and make the right choice. That is the cart before the Horse.

The Word of God produces faith. Every single man has been given THE measure of faith. Everyone has the ability to believe something they can't see. We are created in the similitude of God, or in his likeness.

Does God know who is getting saved or not??

The election folks use Pharaoh as a example of election. They ignore some very important aspects of God.

Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

God did not choose Pharaoh for destruction, but was longsuffering toward pharaoh. God put up with Pharaoh year after year. There is a thing called Judgment. God knows at what point a person is just not going to do what is right.

Rev 2:21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.

God knows by past actions what we will most likely choose. In this case, the Lord gave space for repentance. He was hoping that they would turn and repent. We see many examples of this in the Word. God gives all the tools and sends the people so others will see the light and repent. Does God know if they will???? Like I said, he has a good idea but the Shocking answer is NO, God does not.

How could God not know???? I mean he is God, right!!!!

That is how he does not know. It is because he is God, and the reason for Judgment. The reason for mercy. He has mercy because if he knew, then there would be no reason for mercy, and no reason for space to repent. If God knew, he would just kill the whole lot and be done with them. Forget that mercy, stuff.

God's very nature is Love, Hope and faith. That is who God is.

Jer 29:11 For I know the plans I have for you," declares the LORD, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.
That is how God thinks of everyone. Plans to only bless you. You failing is not in his thinking, he said so. His very nature makes him this way. He gives chance, after chance, in hopes you make the right choice. He ever told us what to choose. Choose life, choose blessing. He left that choice up to us. He thought so much, and had faith, that he was willing to sacrifice Jesus for us. That is not someone that thinks people are not going to make it.

God does have to judge. This is what happened to Pharaoh and God made him an example. Not God's best will for Pharaoh, but pharaoh made his bed, and he had to lie in it.

What about those that have not heard???

That has never happened.

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[rojoloco]

Last night,for the first time since I have been here,I got disturbed,we know, that the Word cannot lie!! Titus 1:2 Calvin has 5 main points in there belief,we also know, that if any one of them can be proved as false then the whole doctrine is as well.So I will only make one point on ther herersy! Calvin taught the jesus only died for saved people. WRONG!!! here is proof for you to look at!! 1 John 2:2,2 Cor 5:15 1 Tim 1:15,2 peter 3:9 All men can repent, For God is not willing that ANY!!! should perish, but have everlasting life!! Acts 20:20,Matt 28:19-20 1 John 2:2-3 FREE WILL!! So those who believe in this,should consider Christ,and not this herersy!! I did not know much about this man until yesterday,I sure do now!! Hope this helps all of you!! To believe the Word is one thing,but to twist it to something perverted,is quite another!! Calvin died for no one!! and Jesus said he is the ONLY WAY!! John 14:6 . I will trust in the Truth,not a lie from someone who did nothing for me!! amen!

Brighthouse, I am going to dissect the verses you gave and give my rebuttal as I feel you took them waaay out of context. Feel free to reply.

#1

and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

Like many others before you, you are looking at "the whole world" and applying it to every person without exception. The problem with this is obvious.

and they were saying to the woman, "It is no longer because of what you said that we believe, for we have heard for ourselves and know that this One is indeed the Savior of the world."

We have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.

There are other Scriptures we can refer to but, for the sake of consistency in writing style, we will stick with John as the author. Clearly, we can see he calls Jesus the savior of the world yet we know this is not the case. Not everybody in the world is saved nor will this ever be the case. Simply put, people die every day without a savior. Does this mean John is lying to us when he said Jesus is the Savior of the world? Not at all. It just means we need to seek out the correct meaning and context of "the whole world" instead of just taking a quick glance at it.

#2

and He died for all, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf

Again, like many others, you take this to say that since all men died from Adam, Christ died for all men. However, this does not fit with the text at all.

First, notice the words "on their behalf" at the end. It is interesting to say the least.

I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours;

Clearly, Christ does not pray on behalf of the world meaning all men without exception. So then, if he does not pray for all men without exception, why would one believe he died for all men without exception? The "on behalf" does not even remotely refer to this. So who does it refer to?

Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.

It is believers who have died in Christ that Christ died for and them alone. This is where the foreknowledge of God comes in but it has nothing to do with knowing what man would do. It has everything to do with knowing His own decree.

All men died spiritually from Adam but it is only those who live for Christ that Christ died for. Not all men fulfill this standard therefore, Christ did not die for all men. Again, it does not refer to all men without exception.

#3

It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I am foremost of all.

You are saying that Christ died for sinners so he must have died for all sinners. Let's not throw the baby out with the bath water here. I am a sinner. You are a sinner. Christ died for me and he died for you as well. This makes the statement above very true. However, it does not forcibly include the neighbor next door who curses God day in and day out. A statement can be true without being all inclusive. I love vegetables but that doesn't mean I love every single vegetable out there.

#4

The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

This is probably one of the most used verses among Arminians to prove that Christ died for all men without exception but, in the end, it is incredibly weak when forced into that context.

First of all, let's see who it is written to:

This is now, beloved, the second letter I am writing to you

Peter is writing to his fellow brothers and sisters in Christ. If you stumbled across a letter that I wrote to my family saying, "I love you all," would you believe I was writing about all of mankind or would you understand it was directed toward a very specific audience? Why does logic escape people when it comes to this same circumstance here?

Second, we can't look at the English alone and think we know it all. In the NASB, it uses the phrase "not wishing for any to perish" but there is much more to it than God's desires or hopeful wishes. The Greek word used is boulomai and literally refers to a deliberate and purposeful Will. God has purposefully willed that none should perish. In fact, He has not only purposed that not a single person should perish but that each and every person will also come to repentance and be saved. If it referred to each person without exception, every person without exception would have been saved and would continue to be saved in accordance with the purposeful Will of God.

We already covered that not every individual is saved nor will this ever be the case. Just as "the whole world" does not apply to mankind without exception, 2 Peter 3:9 is not either. It is referring to Peter's fellow brothers and sisters in Christ; his beloved. It is referring to believers and believers alone. Not a single one of the Elect will perish and every one of them will come to repentance.

#'s 5, 6 & 7

None of those passages (Acts 20:20, Matthew 28:19-20, & 1 John 2:2-3) even remotely relate to free will so I have nothing to reply to on these. Please explain what you see in these because I'm not seeing it.

To end my point, each instance you gave refers to something other than the entire world without exception. 2 Peter was clearly an instance of a particular group of people, the beloved, to whom Peter was writing. The rest of them all referred not to mankind without exception but rather, mankind without distinction. Before Christ, the Jews were the chosen people of God. Upon the death and resurrection of Christ, both Jews and Gentiles, the whole world without DISTINCTION, were chosen by God.

even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.

 

[rojoloco]

Predestination is according to foreknowledge and that knowledge is of our choice.

Larry, I have to correct you on this one yet again. The term "foreknowledge" isn't used that many times in the New Testament and it isn't used at all in the Old Testament. However, in EVERY instance of its usage, it is referring to something that is to occur with certainty. It is not an impersonal knowledge but rather, a very personal knowledge of individuals and not merely the actions of individuals.

this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.

Notice here that Christ is the theme. It is not the foreknowledge or anything else. Christ is central to what is being taught in this passage. Christ was nailed to a cross by godless men. Why did this happen? We can clearly see it was the DIRECT result of the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God. Did simply knowing what would happen cause it to happen? This is never the case. It was God's decree, His predetermined plan, that caused it to happen. God had a special foreknowledge of Christ and the ordinations surrounding him. This decree was from all eternity (2 Timothy 1:9).

For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

Again, notice that it is referring to foreknowledge of an individual and not merely the actions of an individual. In the words of A.W. Pink, "It was not what He did foreknow, but whom He did. It is not the surrendering of their wills nor the believing of their hearts, but the persons themselves that are here in view."

Romans 11:2 is another perfect use of it being the person whom God foreknows and not merely the action of the person.

according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.

You claim God elected people based on His foreknowledge of their actions/choices but the text does not support this interpretation.

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.

First of all, who was predestined? It was those who were chosen. Who were chosen? It was the scattered believers. Notice it does not speak of these believers and then refer to their actions as having been foreknown. No, it refers to the believers themselves as being foreknown.

Going back to what I said earlier, in no instance does the Greek grammar allow us to make the claim that God's foreknowledge caused something to happen. Indeed, it was His election that was the cause and belief was the effect. No action can ever be the cause of election because election IS the cause otherwise, it ceases to be election and is reduced to acceptance.

Again, to borrow words of A.W. Pink:

God did not predestinate those whom He foreknew were "conformed," but, on the contrary, those whom He "foreknew" (i.e., loved and elected) He predestinated "to be conformed." Their conformity to Christ is not the cause, but the effect of God's foreknowledge and predestination. God did not elect any sinner because He foresaw that he would believe, for the simple but sufficient reason that no sinner ever does believe until God gives him faith; just as no man sees until God gives him sight.

God not only knew the end from the beginning, but He planned, fixed, predestinated everything from the beginning. And, as cause stands to effect, so God's purpose is the ground of is prescience. If then the reader be a real Christian, he is so because God chose him in Christ before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4), and chose not because He foresaw you would believe, but chose simply because it pleased Him to choose.

 

[Brother Mike]

Election Doctrines......

rojoloco:

I know you addressed Brighthouse, but it is a little hazy where you stand.

You make some points that seem well already understood.

Did God send Jesus for the whole world? You wrote:

There are other Scriptures we can refer to but, for the sake of consistency in writing style, we will stick with John as the author. Clearly, we can see he calls Jesus the savior of the world yet we know this is not the case. Not everybody in the world is saved nor will this ever be the case.

That is a true statement, not everyone gets saved. That does not take the fact away Jesus was not available to everyone on the planet.

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men

Now we can talk all day about pygmy's in tree huts living in Africa not every hearing the Gospel, but I'll just believe Tit 2:11 because that is the Word of God

So, what is your point rojoloco??

I can make dinner for everyone but and ask you to eat, but if you don't eat......... then that does not mean I did not make dinner.

Joh 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

You wrote:

Clearly, Christ does not pray on behalf of the world meaning all men without exception. So then, if he does not pray for all men without exception, why would one believe he died for all men without exception?

you seemed confused here. He prayed for the 12 God gave him!!!! You also missed a scripture to perpetuate a false doctrine........

I pray for groups of people or A person all the time. Does that mean I want everyone else not to know our Lord??? According to what you said it does.

If you study, those 12 men were the start of the Church. Jesus focus was on those Twelve to be filled with Power and ability to do as God set them forth to do. It does not denote Jesus was not interested in the whole planet of people accepting him.

What was that baby and the bath water saying???

OH, that scripture you conveniently forgot.............

Joh 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

He did not pray for the Whole World, but those who by their own choice, not some twisted will of God, would hear the Word, and receive it. He prayed for us also!!!!! and those that will BELIEVE


Jesus Is Lord

 

[rojoloco]

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men

Now we can talk all day about pygmy's in tree huts living in Africa not every hearing the Gospel, but I'll just believe Tit 2:11 because that is the Word of God

So, what is your point rojoloco??

I can make dinner for everyone but and ask you to eat, but if you don't eat......... then that does not mean I did not make dinner.

Titus 2:11 says, "For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men," This does not say that salvation is given to all men.

This goes back to what I said to Brighthouse regarding death coming to all men from Adam but life from Jesus. It is not that salvation is brought to all men but rather, to all men who believe in Christ and live their lives in such a way that they no longer live for themselves but for God. This appears to be an open invitation (and in a sense, it is) but there is no way to accomplish or accept this invitation unless God makes it happen through His election.

Your dinner analogy falls short. If you made dinner for everybody but one chose not to eat, dinner was still made for him while he rejected it. However, salvation is not offered to all men inclusively without exception. It is for all men exclusively without distinction. Furthermore, it is for those who have been decreed to walk in the statutes of God.

Joh 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
you seemed confused here. He prayed for the 12 God gave him!!!! You also missed a scripture to perpetuate a false doctrine........

I pray for groups of people or A person all the time. Does that mean I want everyone else not to know our Lord??? According to what you said it does.

If you study, those 12 men were the start of the Church. Jesus focus was on those Twelve to be filled with Power and ability to do as God set them forth to do. It does not denote Jesus was not interested in the whole planet of people accepting him.

What was that baby and the bath water saying???

No baby being tossed out here. In an attempt to back me into a corner, you have completely missed an important part of the text. God did give the apostles to Jesus. There is no denying this. However, look a little further down to see a connection in wording by John.

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

John refers to Christ's sheep in the same way Jesus refers to the apostles. We are given to Christ by the Father. Those whom the Father gives to Christ are prayed for by Christ. There is a distinct group being referred to here. The remainder of humanity is being referred to as "the world." There are 2 distinct categories.

OH, that scripture you conveniently forgot.............

Joh 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

He did not pray for the Whole World, but those who by their own choice, not some twisted will of God, would hear the Word, and receive it. He prayed for us also!!!!! and those that will BELIEVE

Do you not see how you just added quite a bit to that? It says nothing of people believing of their own choice. In fact, the text implies something that is already set in place and WILL occur. It speaks of a divine decree that must take place. There is no room for possibilities or free will choices in this text. It clearly and emphatically states, "them also which shall believe." It does not say he prays for those who may believe if they decide they want to follow God. It does not say he prays for those who might believe. It says he prays for those who SHALL believe. Who shall believe?

No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

Jesus Is Lord

Amen!

 

[Brighthouse]

Thank you Brother Mike. First 1 cor 1:31 let them who boast,boast in the Lord. next 1Cor 1:25-27 this is me. God chose the foolish,I am ,nor never have been in the wise category. And what did God do with a follish man such as myself?? He did this!! matt 10:7-8 I preched Jesus in love,and watched the Lord do the following in verse 8 one miracle!! I saw the Lord change water into wine,I have not seen Jesus raise the dead in me yet,I have seen Jesus heal every kind of sickness,I have seen Jesus cast out more demons in my life then your present age. In order for one to see these things in Christ,his or her love,and faith must be right.Therfore my belief in Christ must be correct!! Those of you who do not believe as the Word clearly teaches,I do not judge! But you show me your faith without works,and Bless God, I will show you my faith by my works! Jesus is not for some,he is for all,rev 3:20 says Behold I, meaning Christ,stand at the door and knock;IF!! and the Lord says IF!!! anyone hears my voice,remember hearing his voice is not enough!! and!! does what?? yes!! OPENS the door,THEN!! and only then!! I will meaning Jesus,will come in, and will dine with him, and he with me. next John 14:23 by doing this!! our choice!! free will now! Jesus says this! IF!!! if means whoever does this,anyone LOVES me,he will what?? KEEP MY WORD!;and in doing so! MY Father will LOVE HIM,and!! meaning not only will love him!! but will COME TO HIM!! and!! not only that!! not only will Jesus love you,he will come to you ,and not only that!! but he said he will MAKE OUR ABODE with YOU! Giving those who do this!! this!! john 14:12-14! I sure hope this makes it clear.Praise the LORD!! FOR HIS!!! WISDOM!! For those who do believe in HIM!! they have the very mind of Christ!! 1 Cor 2:16 and he makes all wisdom come to you!! 1 Cor 1:30. be blessed all! Jesus is the ONE and ONLY ONE!! I give all GLORY to!! But to those who dare believe in HIS WORD!! the ycan watch our Jesus move for them to!! It was good enough for Moses,David, Elijah,Paul Peter,and many others!! Bless God,Jesus is good enough for me to! amen!

 

[Brother Mike]

More Election stuff.

rojoloco


Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Joh 6:44 No one is able to come to Me unless the Father Who sent Me attracts and draws him and gives him the desire to come to Me, and [then] I will raise him up [from the dead] at the last day.
We have a few "What some would call" problematic scriptures for those of us that do not subscribe to any Election Doctrine. Those that believe in some form of Election Doctrine (Based on who goes to hell and who escapes) Have many problematic scriptures to contend with. Words Like "ALL" and "The World" simply should have been removed, but they were not.

You see............

Your dinner analogy falls short. If you made dinner for everybody but one chose not to eat, dinner was still made for him while he rejected it. However, salvation is not offered to all men inclusively without exception.

My example does not fit what you believe, man has a choice to reject Dinner, but no choice when someone hears the Word preached and decide to accept Jesus. If God does not draw them, then all the Word and preaching is of no effect. According to Your doctrine.

Rom 8:29 and 8:30........... are not problem scriptures if we read the scripture above it.


Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

Heb 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

Pro 4:18 But the path of the just is as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day.

1Co 12:18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Where you see scriptures that mean chosen to receive eternal life. I pull up many scriptures that state every person on the Planet was designed by God to be of some value to God. Those that will receive Jesus as Lord are called and placed in the Body of Christ. That is what Romans was about. Jesus was the firstborn of many brothers. Every human spirit God created was designed for a purpose. It's not what you want to be when you grow up, It's what God called you to be.

Those that will receive Jesus Can do as God designed them to do. Without Jesus, without abiding in the vine, we can do nothing.

Where you see (Born again because God choose you) I see that we are all called to do something if we are part of the body of Christ. Not the condition to be in the Body of Christ. There are to many scriptures to ignore if you want to believe in a election doctrine. I would have a hard time defending such a doctrine.

Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Now why tell them to repent and be converted?? Surely God had already picked right???

Act 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:

And why preach Jesus again.......... would it be so they could be converted??



Act 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Act 3:22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
Act 3:23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

Why did it not say........... "Every soul, which God will not draw"

I bet you wish it did...................

Joh 6:44 No one is able to come to Me unless the Father Who sent Me attracts and draws him and gives him the desire to come to Me, and [then] I will raise him up [from the dead] at the last day.

Now........... IF the bible said God was the Word.......... ummmm....


Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

And God put his word above himself............. ummmmm

Psa 138:2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.

Now lets say someone just preached the Gospel, the Word, God........
Just to any average Joe............... What would draw them to Jesus??

God is the Word. So if someone heard the Word, God, faith comes by hearing the word, God........ (Rom 10:17) That word they heard would draw them to Jesus, as nobody can come unless God, the Word draws them................. Are you catching on???


Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Do you think Believing something is connected to Hearing something???

Notice anything in there about God picking and choosing??? Of course not.

Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

rojoloco, I know this did not make sense to you, but it must be hard defending Calvinism. I feel for you............. Just change, and make it easy on yourself.

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[rojoloco]

We have a few "What some would call" problematic scriptures for those of us that do not subscribe to any Election Doctrine. Those that believe in some form of Election Doctrine (Based on who goes to hell and who escapes) Have many problematic scriptures to contend with. Words Like "ALL" and "The World" simply should have been removed, but they were not.

There is absolutely no need to have those words removed. In fact, they are quite important. The problem that most people have is they do not look to "prove all things" in the correct context of Scripture as a whole. Context is everything. Instead of taking personal feelings and interpreting Scripture from there, we need to interpret Scripture by Scripture and base our understanding on that.

My example does not fit what you believe, man has a choice to reject Dinner, but no choice when someone hears the Word preached and decide to accept Jesus. If God does not draw them, then all the Word and preaching is of no effect. According to Your doctrine.

This is exactly correct. Man can reject your dinner offer all day long just as one can decide whether or not they are going to go to church. However, one cannot decide whether or not he is going to raise himself from the dead. One who hates God will never choose God.

And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,

Can the Ethiopian change his skin
Or the leopard his spots?
Then you also can do good
Who are accustomed to doing evil.

This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.

But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

for the intent of man's heart is evil from his youth;

everyone who does evil hates the Light

One who is dead cannot raise himself. He can only be raised by God. It is the regeneration of the Spirit which makes man alive. It is ONLY at this point that one can understand the things of the Spirit which are spiritually appraised. This is accomplished by God drawing this person unto Himself because, without this action on God's part, the person would be incapable of doing so of his own will (John 6:44).

Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

Heb 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

Pro 4:18 But the path of the just is as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day.

1Co 12:18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

If we ascribe ANY of the above verses to salvation, we have ourselves a works based faith which is in direct violation of Ephesians 2:8-9 as well as a slew of others. It is not our works that save us nor is it our works that bring us to the point of salvation. It is in Christ alone through grace alone by God alone. The above verses tell believers how to live our lives. A good tree produces good fruit. We are encouraged to run the race in a way so that we might win (in 1 Corinthians) not to hope we reach the finish line of Heaven but to always glorify God and walk in His ways. Again, none of those verses tell us how to achieve salvation.

Where you see scriptures that mean chosen to receive eternal life. I pull up many scriptures that state every person on the Planet was designed by God to be of some value to God.

Our ONLY purpose for creation is to glorify God. There is no other primary purpose. He did not create us to love Him. He did not create us because He was lonely. He did not create us to give us health, wealth, and prosperity. He created us simply because He chose to in order to glorify Himself. He would have been equally as glorified had He never created us as His glory can never be diminished, impeded, nor taken away.

For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things To Him be the glory forever. Amen.

We do all have a purpose. Some are created to be vessels fitted unto mercy (Romans 9:23) while others are created to be vessels fitted unto wrath (Romans 9:22). However, we all come from the same lump of glorifying clay (Romans 9:21) and we have no right to ask God why He made us as such (Romans 9:19). In the end, God will be glorified and that alone is our primary purpose.

Those that will receive Jesus as Lord are called and placed in the Body of Christ. That is what Romans was about. Jesus was the firstborn of many brothers. Every human spirit God created was designed for a purpose. It's not what you want to be when you grow up, It's what God called you to be.

You say it is what God has "called" us to be. I agree. However, I do not believe God calls everybody unto salvation or else all would be saved. Again, this goes back to the Greek where it speaks of God's purposeful will and not some casual invitation. God's plans can never be thwarted (Job 42:2).

Where you see (Born again because God choose you) I see that we are all called to do something if we are part of the body of Christ. Not the condition to be in the Body of Christ.

I hate to break it to you but there is no way to be in the body of Christ unless adopted into it and that is only by being born again. Being born again is very much so a condition of adoption. Going back to what I said earlier, nobody is capable of raising himself from the dead. Only God can do this. It takes Him to regenerate us and it takes Him to adopt us. We are bound by our will and our will is bound by our nature. The sad fact is that our nature is dead and desires evil while opposing God. We are incapable of understanding the things of the Spirit of God and so long as this is the case, one cannot choose God as he lacks understanding in his dead state. Salvation begins with God, is carried out by God, and ends with God. Soli Deo Gloria!

There are to many scriptures to ignore if you want to believe in a election doctrine. I would have a hard time defending such a doctrine.

There are too many Scriptures to ignore if you DO NOT want to believe in an election doctrine.

Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.

And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

Unless the Lord had shortened those days, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect, whom He chose, He shortened the days.

for false Christs and false prophets will arise, and will show signs and wonders, in order to lead astray, if possible, the elect.

And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven.

now, will not God bring about justice for His elect who cry to Him day and night, and will He delay long over them?

Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies;

He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,

Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Now why tell them to repent and be converted?? Surely God had already picked right???

This is an age old argument that really holds no water.

You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

And He said to him, "Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.

We are told to keep the 10 commandments. Does this mean we can really do so? There is no possible way for one to adhere to the commandments in all ways at all times. It's an impossibility. Nevertheless, we are told to do so. Furthermore, do you believe the only way to eternal life is to keep the commandments of God at all times as Jesus tells us in Matthew? Perhaps there is more to the context and meaning. Just because we are commanded and told to do something does not mean it is always possible. In fact, many of the times we are told to do this it is because God is showing us how much we are to rely on Him and His grace. It is the same as the man who was told to give up all he had. Jesus knew this man's heart. Jesus wasn't waiting anxiously for a positive response. He told the man what to do knowing it wasn't going to happen. Just because God tells people to repent does not mean they can do it. They will, however, be held accountable. That is for an entirely different topic on the doctrine of compatibilism (man's responsibility vs God's sovereignty) though.

Act 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:

And why preach Jesus again.......... would it be so they could be converted??

Do you believe it is man's preaching that does the converting or perhaps that man's teaching is only the tool being used by God before drawing one unto Himself in order to not only adopt a new child but also to sanctify one who is already His? Faith comes by hearing but that does not mean it is the only method. It is simply one of the methods God uses and it is one we are commanded to do? Why? Because He said so. Do we really need a better reason?

Joh 6:44 No one is able to come to Me unless the Father Who sent Me attracts and draws him and gives him the desire to come to Me, and [then] I will raise him up [from the dead] at the last day.

First of all, I am assuming you are using the Amplified Bible. The part you have in bold is not in the actual text. However, it is still very accurate as far as theology goes. I mentioned compatibilism earlier. Nobody is forced or dragged to God. God changes our nature and gives us the desire to "choose" Him. It is more of a compulsion to choose Him as we really have no other choice. We are driven by our desires which are dictated by our nature. We freely choose Him while not really having any other option.

You would never walk to a day care and kill a baby. I'm sure the thought makes you sick. While you are fully capable of doing so, you will not because it is against every fiber of your being. Your free will is dictated and bound by your nature and desires. In the same way, a dead man will never choose God and raise Himself because every fiber of his fallen and unregenerate self screams to go away from the Light because that is the very thing he hates.

rojoloco, I know this did not make sense to you, but it must be hard defending Calvinism. I feel for you............. Just change, and make it easy on yourself.

I have changed. To quote Charles Spurgeon:

George Whitefield said, "We are all born Arminians." It is grace that turns us into Calvinists.

 

[Brother Mike]

More on the Election Doctrine........

rojoloco................. I am starting to think that your not going to see things my way.

So, going though and posting a bunch of rebuttal scriptures would be a waste of time at this point.

The issue is that we believe the same scriptures. So we tend to be redundant. Sitting down with some coffee would be lots faster, and we both could understand each other.

Yes, of course we have to be Born again to be in the body of Christ. See, we agree over and over..........

You mention Pharaoh..... I mention that God was longsuffing with Pharaoh, and endured with him. Pharaoh hardened his heart toward God, long before God every got involved. So, where you see Election. I see someone that refused to come into line with God. I see God waiting patiently for Pharaoh.

Then judgment............God made pharaoh an example. Same with Judas. He was stealing out of the bag of money. His heart changed. You probably think it was some sort of picking Judas way before time.

When you use the scriptures with the Word Elect in them, I see something different. I don't see God as a respecter of persons.

1Jn 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.

Now you probably say he just picked some to love....... I say once we choose Jesus, we have favor with God. We are his Elect because we accepted Jesus.

Of course you and I confess Jesus as Lord, So I guess this would not effect us.


Now Thayer Greek Agrees.......... Every scripture must line up, and God is no respecter of anyone, He does not play favorites.

eklektos
Thayer Definition:
1) picked out, chosen
1a) chosen by God
1a1) to obtain salvation through Christ
1a1a) Christians are called “chosen or elect” of God

You say the "Elect" part must come before the Salvation part.
Elect can also mean favorite............. God prefers his Children.

First of all, I am assuming you are using the Amplified Bible.

Yep, Amplified. Seemed to really make the point well...........

So, this is the problem I have here.......................

First I am looking at the scriptures a LITTLE different. I see man made in the image of God, and Man has the ability to have faith.

Every man was given "THE" measure of faith. Man can believe something. That is why man put their lives on the line for what they believe. Look at our Muslim folks. They believe so much in a false God they strap bombs to their body and blow themselves up.

Why can't that same faith system God put in us believe the Word that we hear preached. The word is God, God is the word. That is what draws...................... All of a sudden, if it just happens to be Jesus, man looses all ability God put in him to believe something?????

next issue I have is that God creates human spirits and sends them to a body. Some are screwed and tormented eternally and some get a lucky break. Nothing with how we responded or acted. Your born in the World Screwed or not screwed.

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


Now we have judgment............ Why bother?? What would your works have to do with anything?? yet that is what the scriptures say.

Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Now Jesus said your name could be blotted out of the book of life........ Ummmm. How can that be?? We have to overcome?? That don't make sense. It's not by works... as you said. Jesus must have gotten this wrong.

Did God screw up picking a person who's name gets blotted out?? God must not really have his act together if He can't get it right the first time...................... Or at least mention to Jesus that "Hey, I choose him!!!!"



rojoloco I guess we no longer have to preach this Gospel. I am sure you have heard that argument. At least God could have put marks on our heads so we would not waste our time with someone that will burn in Hell and torment............. I can't accept that. I don't know how you can. Unless you believe there is no Hell.

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[rojoloco]

rojoloco................. I am starting to think that your not going to see things my way.

Trust me, I definitely see your way as I used to think your way. It wasn't until I started really studying the Scriptures that God opened my eyes and I became reformed. This was about 6 years ago. Ever since then, I have been studying non-stop. It's not all one sided though. I just recently read 2 books back to back. One was titled "Why I Am Not An Arminian" while the other was titled "Why I Am Not A Calvinist." Trust me when I say I understand your side. I just wholeheartedly disagree with it.

So, going though and posting a bunch of rebuttal scriptures would be a waste of time at this point.

It's never a waste of time. God's Word never returns void. There's no telling who else might be reading this thread or who might down the road. It appears to be between us but we only started because of a reply I made to Brighthouse.

The issue is that we believe the same scriptures. So we tend to be redundant. Sitting down with some coffee would be lots faster, and we both could understand each other.

I can agree with this one. In person is always easier.

You mention Pharaoh..... I mention that God was longsuffing with Pharaoh, and endured with him. Pharaoh hardened his heart toward God, long before God every got involved. So, where you see Election. I see someone that refused to come into line with God. I see God waiting patiently for Pharaoh.

I don't see Pharaoh as ever having a solid chance. Pharaoh was but a tool to be used by God. He was instrumental in what took place at that point in history. If we started over right now, I believe everything would happen the exact same way and nothing would change. If we look at the text, we can see it speaks of both Pharaoh hardening his own heart as well as God hardening his heart. I believe they were synonymous. God hardened his heart but Pharaoh also did so willingly (again, going back to the nature vs will thing). When it speaks of longsuffering, it is not referring to God hoping and crossing his fingers that Pharaoh would repent. All of that was part of God's ordinations. He knows all because He is sovereign in all. The longsuffering of God refers to God being able (and justified) to destroy us for our disobedience. He would have every right (being God) to end it all. However, He made a promise to us that that would never happen again and, as a result, allows us to remain on this Earth blaspheming His name. If you have kids, imagine them calling you names and cursing you all day long. It would take a boat load of patience. You can't really destroy them but the feeling would probably be there to tear into their hides. Now amplify this and we have but a shadow of God's patience toward us. His plans are not always enjoyable even to Him but they are His plans nonetheless.

Then judgment............God made pharaoh an example. Same with Judas. He was stealing out of the bag of money. His heart changed. You probably think it was some sort of picking Judas way before time.

Actually, Scripture even says that Judas was picked way before time.

While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.

First of all, let's look at the Greek for "of perdition." It is the word apōleia. It literally means total destruction or annihilation. Being called the son of perdition means Judas was born to absolute destruction. Annihilation was his birthright and purpose for being on this Earth.

Next, we see it says the reason why Judas was born into this and why it took place. It was in order to fulfill the Scripture.

I do not speak of all of you I know the ones I have chosen; but it is that the Scripture may be fulfilled, 'HE WHO EATS MY BREAD HAS LIFTED UP HIS HEEL AGAINST ME.'

This is referencing Psalm 41:9. There was no other way for this to play out than for one of the 12 to betray Jesus. It was not by some accident that it happened that way. It HAD to happen that way in order for the prophecy to be fulfilled. The only way to ensure it would play out that way was by divine intervention. It was by the decree of God. It was not merely the foreknowledge of what would freely happen by choice because knowledge alone does not ensure action. There had to be some moderating power throughout history ensuring it played out exactly as predicted. That moderating power was God's decree. If He had not decreed it, there would have been a chance of man freely choosing otherwise and ruing the prophecy. If there was no chance of man freely choosing otherwise, one is compelled to admit he isn't as free as we would like to think. Even the most solid Arminian is forced to admit some form of control by God at this point.

When you use the scriptures with the Word Elect in them, I see something different. I don't see God as a respecter of persons.

1Jn 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.

Now you probably say he just picked some to love....... I say once we choose Jesus, we have favor with God. We are his Elect because we accepted Jesus.

But how does one choose Jesus when he is incapable of understanding Jesus (1 Corinthians 2:14)? The only way to understand Jesus is to be regenerated by the Spirit so that our eyes are opened. Again, how can we make ourselves alive when we are dead (Ephesians 2:1, Jeremiah 13:23)? It is impossible to say God chose us based on us choosing Him because, if left to ourselves, we never would have chosen Him. In fact, it is impossible for us to do so. We must first be regenerated before understanding even becomes a possibility. We once were blind but, upon newness of life, we were finally able to see and what we saw was God for the first time. There was no other option because our nature now screamed for Jesus instead of screaming for darkness.

Now Thayer Greek Agrees.......... Every scripture must line up, and God is no respecter of anyone, He does not play favorites.

eklektos
Thayer Definition:
1) picked out, chosen
1a) chosen by God
1a1) to obtain salvation through Christ
1a1a) Christians are called “chosen or elect” of God

You say the "Elect" part must come before the Salvation part.
Elect can also mean favorite............. God prefers his Children.

It is not a matter of playing favorites. To say that means that I did something to merit God's favor and that He chose me based on this merit. Grace is the unmerited favor of God. He played favorites in the sense that we are the recipients of His favor but it was not because I was His favorite. It was because He chose me out of His own mysterious reasoning when deserved nothing but Hell.

First I am looking at the scriptures a LITTLE different. I see man made in the image of God, and Man has the ability to have faith.

Except there is no place in Scripture that says we have the ability to have faith. There are places that tell us to believe but, as I already gave sufficient Scriptural examples of, a command does not always mean a possibility. This "possibility" is something that crept into the theological system and was actually condemned at the Synod of Dordt as being heresy.

Every man was given "THE" measure of faith. Man can believe something. That is why man put their lives on the line for what they believe. Look at our Muslim folks. They believe so much in a false God they strap bombs to their body and blow themselves up.

Actually, the Muslims are a perfect example of John 8:44. They desire to do the will of their father, the devil. In an unregenerate state, we freely follow Satan (knowingly or unknowingly) because it is what our nature desires. The regenerate man has the ability to have the same amount of action in his faith but it is severely lacking in many believers. However, the ability to practice what we believe does not equate to the ability to change what we believe. The unregenerate man is free to choose other false gods but he is never free to choose God because he is not capable of understanding God until God first regenerates him and gives him the ability.

Why can't that same faith system God put in us believe the Word that we hear preached. The word is God, God is the word. That is what draws...................... All of a sudden, if it just happens to be Jesus, man looses all ability God put in him to believe something?????

Actually, it is the Spirit that draws. The Father elected, the Son paved the way and made it possible, and the Spirit draws and regenerates.

next issue I have is that God creates human spirits and sends them to a body. Some are screwed and tormented eternally and some get a lucky break. Nothing with how we responded or acted. Your born in the World Screwed or not screwed.

It isn't God's fault despite His sovereign decrees. Man is still held responsible. My sermon on compatibilism is somewhere on this site in a thread with all my sermons. If you want to read it, let me know. What it all boils down to is that we all deserve Hell. Not a one of us deserves Heaven. That God redeems ANY of us is an unmeasurable act of love on His part. It isn't hateful that He leaves many to go to where they belong while rescuing innumerable others. It is the greatest act of love ever performed. In fact, it could almost be viewed as hateful that He would have rescued any because it required Him sending His spotless Son to Earth to die a gruesome death in order to let many sinners go free and enjoy a relationship in an adoption through the very one we crucified. It isn't a matter of God screwing some. It's a matter of us screwing ourselves while God graciously rescued some of us.

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


Now we have judgment............ Why bother?? What would your works have to do with anything?? yet that is what the scriptures say.

There are eternal rewards in Heaven for our righteous works on Earth but that reward does not include salvation.

Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Now Jesus said your name could be blotted out of the book of life........ Ummmm. How can that be?? We have to overcome?? That don't make sense. It's not by works... as you said. Jesus must have gotten this wrong.

Actually, it does not say the name can be blotted out. It says he won't blot it out. He is not saying he will preserve some names so long as we do good but, if we screw up, the name will be blotted out. This verse fully supports eternal security. If we are a true believer, rest assured that our name will never be blotted out. If one falls away, his name was never in it to begin with and he only left so that we would see he was never of Christ to begin with (John 21:19).

Did God screw up picking a person who's name gets blotted out?? God must not really have his act together if He can't get it right the first time...................... Or at least mention to Jesus that "Hey, I choose him!!!!"

Like I said, that verse is encouragement and not condemnation or judgment. If one belongs to God, he will continue in his good works or else all will see that his faith was dead and that he never really belonged to God to begin with. Names are not being blotted out. They are written in blood and preserved eternally.

rojoloco I guess we no longer have to preach this Gospel. I am sure you have heard that argument. At least God could have put marks on our heads so we would not waste our time with someone that will burn in Hell and torment............. I can't accept that. I don't know how you can. Unless you believe there is no Hell.

I already addressed this point earlier. We are called to evangelize. God told me to and I need to greater reason. Do I believe God is dependent upon what I do or do not accomplish? Certainly not! God is dependent upon nobody. If God has it in His will to call someone, that person will be saved. However, who am I to fail to evangelize when God has clearly called us to do so?

 

[azuredepths]

It wasn't Calvin who propagated calvinism, but his successor Theodore Beza, many people are being misled about this.
Calvin taught that you can actually lose your salvation.

 

[rojoloco]

It wasn't Calvin who propagated calvinism, but his successor Theodore Beza, many people are being misled about this.
Calvin taught that you can actually lose your salvation.

Actually, you are only partially correct. While it was Theodore Beza who expounded upon it, Calvin never taught that you can lose your salvation. He only held that we must continually work out our salvation. Calvin held dearly to the mysteries of God whereas Beza held that logic can decipher most confusion in Scripture. Either way, neither Calvin nor Beza created the ideas taught within Calvinism. They actually have their roots (other than Scripture of course) with Augustine long before either of them.

 

[Brother Mike]

even more and more Election stuff.

rojoloco

Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Actually, it does not say the name can be blotted out. It says he won't blot it out. He is not saying he will preserve some names so long as we do good but, if we screw up, the name will be blotted out. This verse fully supports eternal security. If we are a true believer, rest assured that our name will never be blotted out. If one falls away, his name was never in it to begin with and he only left so that we would see he was never of Christ to begin with (John 21:19).

This is just one of many scriptures we look at differently. Why would Jesus even mention overcoming? I suppose the ones that overcome had been chosen. Why would Jesus mention that he would not blot out their name if they overcome.

You would have to read it like this to get your understanding.


Those that are hand picked and chosen of God will overcome, and are in no danger of their name being blotted out of the book of life. Those that do not overcome, their name was not there in the first place.
They never had a chance.

Now how many people would read the scripture that way if they did not have some doctrine getting in the way??

Rev 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Why did it not say that those God picked shall not be hurt??? We don't even read sentences this way. I suppose the best you could do is mention that the words "He That" was added to the Greek word Overcometh.

Act 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Here we have a action taken and result given. Who takes the action? it's the one whosoever will take it. This is a form of works or stepping out to or doing something to obtain something that is provided.

Now, if God did not put within that person to call on the name of the Lord, then this action could not have happened. Yet why would that person have to call out in the first place? If your already one of the lucky few That God picked, what difference would it make.

There are to many scriptures that don't convey what Calvin taught. This scripture should have read.............

Those that have been picked by God. It shall come to pass, that if those hand picked people call on the name of the Lord, (And they will as they had no choice in the matter) they shall be saved, though they were saved anyway as nobody can take you out of the Fathers hand.

As you stated, you understand the problems we have here, yet still accept this theory Calvin taught.

Now what about redeeming the time?? You can candy coat it all you like. With this Mysterious (seemingly random) choosing by God's determination of those that are his, and not his.
Any type of ministry Work would be a great waste of time.

I don't like to waste time, and if God already picked, then at least he could show me a halo over their head or something so that I would talk to the right people.

I do markets, I run a business, and have family. I certainly would not have time to preach anymore or share the word of those heading for hell. I am sure God does not want me wasting time either.

Be blessed
Jesus Is Lord