• Welcome to Talk Jesus

    A true bible based, Jesus centered online community. Join over 13,000 members today

    Register Log In

Users who viewed this discussion (Total:0)

Loyal
Sunday, October 29, 2017, 10:22 p.m. – The Lord Jesus put in mind the song “Zeal for Your House.” Speak, Lord, your words to my heart. I read several scriptures on the subject of the Body of Christ.

Different Functions (Romans 12:3-8)

For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith. For just as we have many members in one body and all the members do not have the same function, so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another. Since we have gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, each of us is to exercise them accordingly: if prophecy, according to the proportion of his faith; if service, in his serving; or he who teaches, in his teaching; or he who exhorts, in his exhortation; he who gives, with liberality; he who leads, with diligence; he who shows mercy, with cheerfulness.​

No matter our gifts, our callings, our service (ministry), or our body parts, not one of us is superior to the other. Paul said, in essence, that all who are ministers of Christ are all servants of the Lord, but we just have different functions, yet it is God who causes the growth. So, not one of us has ever any reason to take pride in our callings or ministry, because God is the source of our gifts and callings, and there is nothing we can do for his service, apart from him. Only by and through him can we even have any impact for God’s eternal kingdom. So, since it all comes from him and is empowered by him, then he is the one to get all the glory and praise. Amen.

As God Desired (I Corinthians 12:14-20)

For the body is not one member, but many. If the foot says, “Because I am not a hand, I am not a part of the body,” it is not for this reason any the less a part of the body. And if the ear says, “Because I am not an eye, I am not a part of the body,” it is not for this reason any the less a part of the body. If the whole body were an eye, where would the hearing be? If the whole were hearing, where would the sense of smell be? But now God has placed the members, each one of them, in the body, just as He desired. If they were all one member, where would the body be? But now there are many members, but one body.​

I think that today’s modern (corporation) church here in America has lost sight of what the church is really all about. For one, the church, Christ’s body, is not a business, a corporation, an organization, a social club, a civic organization or a marketing venture. It is the people of God who believe in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior of their lives. It is also not a building built by human hands. When we enter that building called a church, we are not entering into God’s house, and when we enter the worship center (formerly called “sanctuary”), we are not entering into the presence of Almighty God. We, the people of God, are his house, and his presence is within us.

As far as body parts go, it is important to note here that it is God who determines the parts (the roles, the assignments), not humans. He not only determines who gets what parts, but he decides the parts, i.e. what they consist of and how they are to operate, like he does with the gifts. As well, they are only operational in the power and under the direction of the Holy Spirit, which means the Holy Spirit has to have the freedom to work through these parts as predetermined by God. So, a body part may or may not coincide with an institutional church ministry, which may be designed by humans but then designated as a “body part.”

For example, a small group leader, who is a facilitator of someone else’s teaching materials probably does not qualify as a body part, because the part is man-made, and because it is usually confined to follow particular man-made objectives, purposes, plans and goals, which may or may not be consistent with scripture. And, it is normally all predetermined by humans, which leaves little room for the Holy Spirit to speak or to work, because consistently humans set the perimeters for this assignment, not God.

So, because the modern church is run like a business, it is not run like the body of Christ. Thus, it is often lopsided with a handful of leaders doing the ministry, and determining the ministries, which often must fit with the goals and objectives of the business. So, it is kind of like the whole body is an eye, and that there is no place for the other parts, which may lead some people to feel as though they are not necessary to the body, because they don’t fit, but all the parts are necessary, but again, as God determines, not man.

Rejected Parts (1 Corinthians 12:21-26)

And the eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you”; or again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.” On the contrary, it is much truer that the members of the body which seem to be weaker are necessary; and those members of the body which we deem less honorable, on these we bestow more abundant honor, and our less presentable members become much more presentable, whereas our more presentable members have no need of it. But God has so composed the body, giving more abundant honor to that member which lacked, so that there may be no division in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another. And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it.​

I admit I am very passionate about what this talks about here, partly due to my own experiences, some of them not so good, partly due to how I have seen others treated within the body of Christ, sometimes in the name of God, which is also not always so good, but mostly because Jesus lives within me and so I have his heart, his zeal for his body, God’s house.

If we are truly following Jesus Christ with our lives, and we are being led of the Holy Spirit, and we are responding to God’s leading, he will show us our gifts and our assignments within the body of Christ, which will be in complete agreement with his Word. But, they may not be accepted within these modern churches which have turned God’s house, his body, into a marketplace. So, we may be rejected within the church because our body part just doesn’t fit with their business goals and marketing schemes. And, they may invite us to go “someplace else” where we will be a “better fit.” But, where? So many of today’s churches have taken this business path and are following marketing schemes and humanistic philosophy, often over and above God’s Word.

So, what can we do? Well, we have to remember that the church is the people, not the organization, and that it exists worldwide. So, God is not confined to any specific location or group in order for him to use us as he chooses. He may have us start a Bible study with our neighbors, or he may give us a writing ministry, or a prayer ministry, etc. We also have to remember that God is completely sovereign, and he knew the church was going to turn this direction, so he already planned for this, which means our body part is not contingent on any one congregation accepting us. He will give honor to the parts which lack it (from humans) so that there may be no division in the body.

So, if you have been rejected, place this in his hands, and just follow his lead, and he will show you what he has for you to do. It will probably not be conventional, not in the sense of what we have come to accept as “church” ministries, most likely. It may be something “outside the box” of traditional “church,” but it won’t be outside God’s box or outside his wisdom, or contrary to his Word. What God opens, no man can shut, and what God shuts, no man can open, so just trust him, let him lead, and follow him.

Zeal for Your House
An Original Work / August 1, 2016

Based off Jn. 2:17; Ps. 69:9

Zeal for Your house, it consumes me.
Lord, I love my times with You.
I love to worship You and sing Your praises.
Time in Your Word brings me closer to You,
List’ning to You speaking to me,
Gently guiding me in truth.

Lord, You are my life’s example,
Showing me how I should live.
I love to walk with You where’er You lead me.
No greater joy have I when serving You.
Loving, giving, resting in Your strength,
I’m yielding to Your will.

Zeal for Your house, it consumes me.
See the church turned upside down:
Marketing ventures taking place of worship,
Men of the gospel turning into clowns.
Gospel message made appealing,
So the world will feel at home.

Lord, we need a great revival.
Turn their hearts, Lord, back to You.
Open the blind eyes, turn them all from darkness,
Lord, to the light. May they return to You,
Turn from their sin, forsake idols,
Be restored to God again.

 
Active
Yea I too have had a bad experience of not fitting into an established church or organized ministry. But I realised it had become a man made thing not a spirit led one.

I think so many people want to organize things themselves when we ought to leave the organization up to God.
He is in charge! And He does a better job than we can and His timing is always perfect. Our Fathers business is not run like a man made corporation or pyramid scheme or boot camp. We are not wage slaves, or salary men who just go somewhere else when the money dries up.

The best example I can think of is church is more like a royal family, and we are heirs, and we are subject to a King. There is no such thing as human leaders as all of us submit to the King, and his spirit is the one leading us. Those who give their lives to the Kingdom are granted grace and favour if they humble themselves to serve. There is no profit motive because our God owns everything already and has riches that are more than we can ask or think.
 
Loyal
Yea I too have had a bad experience of not fitting into an established church or organized ministry. But I realised it had become a man made thing not a spirit led one.

I think so many people want to organize things themselves when we ought to leave the organization up to God.
He is in charge! And He does a better job than we can and His timing is always perfect. Our Fathers business is not run like a man made corporation or pyramid scheme or boot camp. We are not wage slaves, or salary men who just go somewhere else when the money dries up.

The best example I can think of is church is more like a royal family, and we are heirs, and we are subject to a King. There is no such thing as human leaders as all of us submit to the King, and his spirit is the one leading us. Those who give their lives to the Kingdom are granted grace and favour if they humble themselves to serve. There is no profit motive because our God owns everything already and has riches that are more than we can ask or think.
I agree, but God does place people within the true church (the body of Christ) in leadership positions, who are also subject to him, and who should meet specific biblical qualifications. If they do, they will run the church under the headship of Christ, not under the headship of man, and they will teach what is true, and they will focus on holiness and righteousness, not on the flesh and worldliness, trying to find a loophole so they can continue in sin. We just have too many men in leadership within the church who are taking their cues from men over God, and marketing 101 books, over the Bible.
 
Active
I agree, but God does place people within the true church (the body of Christ) in leadership positions, who are also subject to him, and who should meet specific biblical qualifications. If they do, they will run the church under the headship of Christ, not under the headship of man, and they will teach what is true, and they will focus on holiness and righteousness, not on the flesh and worldliness, trying to find a loophole so they can continue in sin. We just have too many men in leadership within the church who are taking their cues from men over God, and marketing 101 books, over the Bible.
1 timothy 3

It seems many dont read this chapter. Also the bible does not talk about leaders. The new testament talks about followers, servants, bishops and deacons. There are actually no 'leaders' only ministers or ambassadors of Christ. Why people say there are leaders in the church I dont know, that is a business term not a church term. Jesus said if the blind lead the blind, they will fall into a ditch. Only God can truly see everything at once. Do we not recognise Jesus as Lord, or do we ourselves lord it over others. Then we place people under yokes and heavy burdens they do not need.

One church marketing book that should be burned or trashed is 'the purpose driven church' sorry but it is purpose drivel!

God says in every house there are vessels of silver and gold and some of earth and clay. They are all useful vessels but the silver and gold ones have more honor. To be a vessel of honor we need to purge ourselves from these to be holy and set apart prepared to do Gods work, not our own.

What seems to have happened in some churches is they are not purging themselves of anything..giving heed to jewish fables and commandments of men.
I dont know what exactly the jewish fables were maybe it was the talmud or other writings of the apochyra but commandments of men are like church marketing strategy today. In catholicism they have a magisterium which is like their church rulebook, and they have placed it above scripture.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Loyal
1 timothy 3

It seems many dont read this chapter. Also the bible does not talk about leaders. The new testament talks about followers, servants, bishops and deacons. There are actually no 'leaders' only ministers or ambassadors of Christ. Why people say there are leaders in the church I dont know, that is a business term not a church term. Jesus said if the blind lead the blind, they will fall into a ditch. Only God can truly see everything at once. Do we not recognise Jesus as Lord, or do we ourselves lord it over others. Then we place people under yokes and heavy burdens they do not need.

One church marketing book that should be burned or trashed is 'the purpose driven church' sorry but it is purpose drivel!
Hebrews 13:7

New American Standard Bible
Remember those who led you, who spoke the word of God to you; and considering the result of their conduct, imitate their faith.

King James Bible
Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.

Young's Literal Translation
Be mindful of those leading you, who did speak to you the word of God, whose faith -- considering the issue of the behaviour -- be imitating,

The word translated “leading” is this Greek word:

2233 hēgéomai (from 71 /ágō, "to lead") – properly, to lead the way (going before as a chief) – cognate with 2232 /hēgemṓn ("a governor or official who leads others").

2233 /hēgéomai ("what goes before, in front") refers to coming first in priority such as: "the leading thought" in one's mind, i.e. to esteem (regard highly); or a leading authority, providing leadership in a local church (see Heb 13:7,17,24). Strong's Greek: 2233. ἡγέομαι (hégeomai) -- to lead, suppose
 
Active
My bible says the rule, not lead. Obey them that have the rule over you..and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls as they must give account, that they may do it with joy and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you. See Hebrews 13:17

Sorry I dont read the other translations, I only have one Bible. Jesus christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

Why would false teachers have rule over me? The wouldnt because they arent speaking the words of God and their faith is not pointing toward Jesus. The people who teach falsely are not watching over peoples souls...they are only watching over peoples bank balances...to add to their own! People often equate the word with money and say the seed is money. Sow money into this ministry and reap a profit. But it doesnt work like that.

That is why the purpose driven church book was so popular...it was teaching pastors how to get rich. Set up a church in a wealthy area. That book talked about leaders all the time. Yea, leading people astray!
 
Loyal
My bible says the rule, not lead. Obey them that have the rule over you..and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls as they must give account, that they may do it with joy and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you. See Hebrews 13:17

Sorry I dont read the other translations, I only have one Bible. Jesus christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.
@Lanolin - The scriptures did not originate with King James and his men. They originated with King Jesus. And, the New Testament was penned by men of God as God breathed his words into their hearts and minds, and they did not live during the reign of King James. The original scriptures, the only ones completely inerrant, were written in Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek, not in King James English. So, the King James Bible is just one in many translations. It may be the one you favor, but it is still a translation. And, it isn't right in every respect with regard to the original languages in which the scriptures were written. So, when I show you the Greek word, and how it is translated into English, please consider that King James and his men may not have gotten everything right. Also, another word for ruler is leader, for one who rules also leads, whether or not he leads in a right way or a wrong way. And, also realize that the King James was not authored by God, though I cannot attest one way or another to whether or not the translators were led of the Holy Spirit in the translation or not. If you read about King James and his men, not all of them were godly men who were involved in this translation. So, there is nothing more sacred about that translation than some others.

As you have probably noticed, I do not use the KJV of the Bible, because it is not written in my language, i.e. the English I learned here in America in the 20th and 21st centuries. So, I prefer a Bible written in my language, and one I can understand, which is why I usually quote from the ESV, the NASB, and the NIV (not as much). So, if you read my posts, that is what you should expect.

Respectfully, Sue
 
Active
Well not everyone is american Sue, so PLEASE be mindful of that. And also not every christian is american!

The KJV is the an authorised translation yes, by one of the rulers at the time, but if you read the history you will know many people were matyred for bringing this translation to the english language.
Also, strongs is not always a correct translation of greek.


The church in america is really so different from anywhere else, so dont expect everyone to know what you talking about when people say leaders. In the Bible, it is always talking about ministers or servants of the gospel, not leaders. Leaders are business people or gurus. In the Bible there are teachers, apostles, evangelists, prophets and pastors. They are all ministers...not leaders. We are called to do ministry, not leadership.

Yes I get that america has its own language and words are different there but I am trying to communicate with you in ENGLISH, and if people change the words to mean something completely different or even the opposite of what it means in the Bible I am going to point that out! A servant is not a leader! How can they be..yet churches in america constantly go on about leaders in the church. Never a mention of servants!

Check out 2 timothy 3:6

What it says about the sorts of people that lead...(Not minister!)

Does Jesus say, well done good and faithful leader?

Nope!
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Loyal
Well not everyone is american Sue, so PLEASE be mindful of that. And also not every christian is american!

The KJV is the an authorised translation yes, by one of the rulers at the time, but if you read the history you will know many people were matyred for bringing this translation to the english language.
Also, strongs is not always a correct translation of greek.

The church in america is really so different from anywhere else, so dont expect everyone to know what you talking about when people say leaders. In the Bible, it is always talking about ministers or servants of the gospel, not leaders. Leaders are business people or gurus. In the Bible there are teachers, apostles, evangelists, prophets and pastors. They are all ministers...not leaders. We are called to do ministry, not leadership.

Yes I get that america has its own language and words are different there but I am trying to communicate with you in ENGLISH, and if people change the words to mean something completely different or even the opposite of what it means in the Bible I am going to point that out! A servant is not a leader! How can they be..yet churches in america constantly go on about leaders in the church. Never a mention of servants!
Lanolin - Whether or not one is American or from any other country does not change what I shared with you. My reply to you was not about being American. I only mentioned America in the sense that it is where I live, and where I learned to speak English, to let you know why I personally do not choose to use the KJV. I speak American English, of the 20th and 21st centuries, so I will use the words we speak here, because this is the English that we speak here. And you will use the words you speak in your country. And, that is ok.

But, what is a pastor? A pastor is a shepherd, not the chief shepherd, but an under-shepherd of Christ who is to guide, direct, rule God's sheep, the body of Christ, and they are to rule or lead by example (See: 1 Peter 5). "The word "pastor" derives from the Latin noun pastor which means "shepherd" and relates to the Latin verb pascere - "to lead to pasture, set to grazing, cause to eat". (wikipedia)
 
Active
Sorry sue.
Yes a pastor is another name for a shepherd and if you have a large flock or family yes someone needs to look after them, just as God cares for our needs and provides for us as He is a good shepherd and our Heavenly Father.

I just am not really keen on the word leader as abused by greedy business people creeping into the church.
 
Loyal
Sorry sue.
Yes a pastor is another name for a shepherd and if you have a large flock or family yes someone needs to look after them, just as God cares for our needs and provides for us as He is a good shepherd and our Heavenly Father.

I just am not really keen on the word leader as abused by greedy business people creeping into the church.
@Lanolin - Have you ever heard the phrase, "Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater?" It means, "Don't discard something valuable along with something undesirable." Or, it "is an idiomatic expression for an avoidable error in which something good is eliminated when trying to get rid of something bad, or in other words, rejecting the essential along with the inessential" (wikipedia). Just because someone uses something in a bad way doesn't mean we should discard it all together, in other words. Yes, there are many people who will abuse what is good and turn it into something which is bad, but we must not throw out "the whole kit and caboodle," meaning everything, just because we don't like one aspect of something or how someone uses it. There will be good leaders and bad leaders, good counselors and bad counselors, good bishops and bad bishops, good pastors and bad pastors. Words will be used in good ways with good meanings, and they will be used in bad ways, with bad meanings, but we can't throw out the words altogether just because they are used, as well, to mean something bad. So, just because you are not keen on the word "leader," because you have experienced people using it in a wrong way, doesn't mean it should be discarded altogether. We just need to use the word in the right way.
 
Loyal
Sorry sue.
Yes a pastor is another name for a shepherd and if you have a large flock or family yes someone needs to look after them, just as God cares for our needs and provides for us as He is a good shepherd and our Heavenly Father.

I just am not really keen on the word leader as abused by greedy business people creeping into the church.
Thank you for sharing this with me. I appreciate it.
 
Top