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Birth Control

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Just my opinion: It is irresponsible to bring children into this world without the proper means to care for them. No I certainly do not believe in abortion. Life begins when the ***** penetrates the egg until that happens there is no baby.
For those not married : KYPO
Keep Your Pants On.
So what do you think of a single mother who is both mother and father to a child? Even if the father of that child is around to help out, but not married to the mother, is that so bad? If that parent is taking proper care of her children, and is a follower of Christ, is she a bad person for bringing children into the world without being married? Hmm just a question.
God Bless
So what do you think of a single mother who is both mother and father to a child?
She is not, nor can ever be a father to her child.

She would be a single mother.

I've known many single mothers. Both with fathers active in their childrens lives, and those who's fathers were absent. It's a tall task, but being a good mother in her childrens lives is what is paramount. This is especially true about sons. Be the best mom you can be to them. There are men, and groups of men involved in church activities, who can make a difference in a young man/boys life.

Awana and Royal Rangers are great places for children to look up to, for a father figure.

A 'married' couple, to their children, is emotionally/phychologically more healthy than any other situation.

God bless, LoJ
Let me ask ya'll a few questions about that. First, are you aware that it is by no means certain that a fertilized egg will implant without any birth control? In light of this, do you consider other things that may cause a fertilized egg not to implant abortion? For example, caffeine, lack of sleep, stress, certain foods, illness, and a slew of over the counter and prescription medications can change hormone balances and cause a similarly tiny increase in the chance of a fertilized egg failing to implant. Would you similarly reject these things as abortifacent?
You're making me think here, Laudite!
Because using the pill is a choice to specifically target fertilization, I think it is easier to focus on the side-effects of the pill.
But, I think it is our responsibility to live a healthy life and take care of our bodies anyways. I totally agree that too much caffeine can have negative side-effects on your body - I've experienced that myself!
It is important that we always make informed choices.
A 'married' couple, to their children, is emotionally/phychologically more healthy than any other situation.

I agree a father and mother together may be more healthy than any other situation- yes. However, if that couple is not happily married, then wouldn't you think it is best for the children NOT to be exposed to that unhealthy relationship?? I do not mean any disrespect, I just feel as if a married couple who CANNOT live together, or be together anymore is best to leave that mother to be a single parent with her children, then to expose them to conflict every day. The father can play a role in the child's life, however the parent who has the children have to provide in every way for that child. I do believe a mother can provide alone just as much love, compassion,guidance, and more just as much as a couple together could.
God Bless

God bless, LoJ[/quote]
I do believe a mother can provide alone just as much love, compassion,guidance, and more just as much as a couple together could.


No disrespect AIB, but your very nieve.

With all the studies/facts/studies/facts/.... over the decades..

The evidence is overwhelming! In a divorce, the children suffer the most!

Malachi 2:16
Revelation 4:11
Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

I believe God has given us free will. We can choose to abort children. We can choose to have sex outside of marriage. We can choose to seek God with all our heart. We can choose to forgive. We can choose to kill.

I look at this as a faith question. Do you choose to believe God knows what he is doing when he keeps the faithful from conceiving? It doesnt say in the bible that Abraham ever used birth control does it? What happened when Abraham started to doubt Gods ability to keep his seed from taking root at the wrong time and not taking root at (what he believed) was the right time?

I believe if God supplies you with a child he will provide the finances. If your faith is not there you will not be able to see it and accept it just like your salvation.
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We learn from Scripture that contraception is evil and should not be used.

Gen 1:28, 9:1,7; 35:11 - from the beginning, the Lord commands us to be fruitful ("fertile") and multiply. A husband and wife fulfill God's plan for marriage in the bringing forth of new life, for God is life itself.
Gen. 28:3 - Isaac's prayer over Jacob shows that fertility and procreation are considered blessings from God.
Gen. 38:8-10 - Onan is killed by God for practicing contraception (in this case, withdrawal) and spilling his semen on the ground.
Gen. 38:11-26 - Judah, like Onan, also rejected God's command to keep up the family lineage, but he was not killed.
Deut. 25:7-10 - the penalty for refusing to keep up a family lineage is not death, like Onan received. Onan was killed for wasting seed.
Gen. 38:9 - also, the author's usage of the graphic word "seed," which is very uncharacteristic for Hebrew writing, further highlights the reason for Onan's death.
Exodus 23:25-26; Deut. 7:13-14 - God promises blessings which include no miscarriages or barrenness. Children are blessings from God, and married couples must always be open to God's plan for new life with every act of marital intimacy.
Lev.18:22-23;20:13 - wasting seed with non-generative sexual acts warrants death. Many Protestant churches, which have all strayed from the Catholic Church, reject this fundamental truth (few Protestants and Catholics realize that contraception was condemned by all of Christianity - and other religions - until the Anglican church permitted it in certain cases at the Lambeth conference in 1930. This opened the floodgates of error).
Lev. 21:17,20 - crushed testicles are called a defect and a blemish before God. God reveals that deliberate sterilization and any other methods which prevent conception are intrinsically evil.
Deut. 23:1 - whoever has crushed testicles or is castrated cannot enter the assembly. Contraception is objectively sinful and contrary, not only to God's Revelation, but the moral and natural law.
Deut. 25:11-12 - there is punishment for potential damage to the testicles, for such damage puts new life at risk. It, of course, follows that vasectomies, which are done with willful consent, are gravely contrary to the natural law.
1 Chron. 25:5 - God exalts His people by blessing them with many children. When married couples contracept, they are declaring "not your will God, but my will be done."
Psalm 127:3-5 - children are a gift of favor from God and blessed is a full quiver. Married couples must always be open to God's precious gift of life. Contraception, which shows a disregard for human life, has lead to the great evils of abortion, euthanasia, and infanticide.
Hosea 9:11; Jer. 18:21 - God punishes Israel by preventing pregnancy. Contraception is a curse, and married couples who use contraception are putting themselves under the same curse.
Mal. 2:14 - marriage is not a contract (which is a mere exchange of property or services). It is a covenant, which means a supernatural exchange of persons. Just as God is three in one, so are a husband and wife, who become one flesh and bring forth new life, three in one. Marital love is a reflection of the Blessed Trinity.
Mal. 2:15 - What does God desire? Godly offspring. What is contraception? A deliberate act against God's will. With contraception, a couple declares, "God may want an eternal being created with our union, but we say no." Contraception is a grave act of selfishness.
Matt. 19:5-6 - Jesus said a husband and wife shall become one. They are no longer two, but one, just as God is three persons, yet one. The expression of authentic marital love reintegrates our bodies and souls to God, and restores us to our original virginal state (perfect integration of body and soul) before God.
Matt. 19:6; Eph. 5:31 - contraception prevents God's ability to "join" together. Just as Christ's love for the Church is selfless and sacrificial, and a husband and wife reflect this union, so a husband and wife's love for each other must also be selfless and sacrificial. This means being open to new life.
Acts 5:1-11 - Ananias and Sapphira were slain because they withheld part of a gift. Fertility is a gift from God and cannot be withheld.
Rom.1:26-27 - sexual acts without the possibility of procreation is sinful. Self-giving love is life-giving love, or the love is a lie. The unitive and procreative elements of marital love can never be divided, or the marital love is also divided, and God is left out of the marriage.
1 Cor. 6:19-20 - the body is the temple of the Holy Spirit; thus, we must glorify God in our bodies by being open to His will.
1 Cor. 7:5 - this verse supports the practice of natural family planning ("NFP"). Married couples should not refuse each other except perhaps by agreement for a season, naturally.
Gal. 6:7-8 - God is not mocked for what a man sows. If to the flesh, corruption. If to the Spirit, eternal life.
Eph. 5:25 - Paul instructs husbands to love their wives as Christ loved the Church, by giving his entire body to her and holding nothing back. With contraception, husbands tell their wives, I love you except your fertility, and you can have me except for my fertility. This love is a lie because it is self-centered, and not self-giving and life-giving.
Eph. 5:29-31; Phil. 3:2 - mutilating the flesh (e.g., surgery to prevent conception) is gravely sinful. Many Protestant churches reject this most basic moral truth.
1 Tim. 2:15 - childbearing is considered a "work" through which women may be saved by God's grace.
Deut. 22:13-21 – these verses also show that God condemns pre-marital intercourse. The living expression of God’s creative love is reserved for a sacramental marriage between one man and one woman.
Rev. 9:21; 21:8; 22:15; Gal. 5:20 - these verses mention the word "sorcery." The Greek word is "pharmakeia" which includes abortifacient potions such as birth control pills. These pharmakeia are mortally sinful. Moreover, chemical contraception does not necessarily prevent conception, but may actually kill the child in the womb after conception has occurred (by preventing the baby from attaching to the uterine wall). Contraception is a lie that has deceived millions, but the Church is holding her arms open wide to welcome back her children who have strayed from the truth.

The early Church fathers were also against contraception:

"Moreover, he [Moses] has rightly detested the weasel [Lev. 11:29]. For he means, ‘Thou shall not be like to those whom we hear of as committing wickedness with the mouth with the body through uncleanness [orally consummated sex]; nor shall thou be joined to those impure women who commit iniquity with the mouth with the body through uncleanness’" Letter of Barnabas 10:8 (A.D. 74).
"Because of its divine institution for the propagation of man, the seed is not to be vainly **********, nor is it to be damaged, nor is it to be wasted" Clement of Alexandria, The Instructor of Children 2:10:91:2 (A.D. 191).
"To have coitus other than to procreate children is to do injury to nature." Clement of Alexandria, The Instructor of Children 2:10:95:3 (A.D. 191).
“[Christian women with male concubines], on account of their prominent ancestry and great property, the so-called faithful want no children from slaves or lowborn commoners, [so] they use drugs of sterility or bind themselves tightly in order to expel a fetus which has already been engendered." Hippolytus, Refutation of All Heresies 9:12 (A.D. 225).
"[Some] complain of the scantiness of their means, and allege that they have not enough for bringing up more children, as though, in truth, their means were in [their] power . . . or God did not daily make the rich poor and the poor rich. Wherefore, if any one on any account of poverty shall be unable to bring up children, it is better to abstain from relations with his wife." Lactantius, Divine Institutes 6:20 (A.D. 307).
"God gave us eyes not to see and desire pleasure, but to see acts to be performed for the needs of life; so too, the genital [’generating’] part of the body, as the name itself teaches, has been received by us for no other purpose than the generation of offspring.” Lactantius, Divine 6:23:18 (A.D. 307).
"f anyone in sound health has castrated himself, it behooves that such a one, if enrolled among the clergy, should cease [from his ministry], and that from henceforth no such person should be promoted. But, as it is evident that this is said of those who willfully do the thing and presume to castrate themselves, so if any have been made eunuchs by barbarians, or by their masters, and should otherwise be found worthy, such men this canon admits to the clergy." Council of Nicaea I, Canon 1 (A.D. 325).
"They [certain Egyptian heretics] exercise genital acts, yet prevent the conceiving of children. Not in order to produce offspring, but to satisfy lust, are they eager for corruption." Epiphanius of Salamis, Medicine Chest Against Heresies 26:5:2 (A.D. 375).
"This proves that you [Manicheans] approve of having a wife, not for the procreation of children, but for the gratification of passion. In marriage, as the marriage law declares, the man and woman come together for the procreation of children. Therefore, whoever makes the procreation of children a greater sin than copulation, forbids marriage and makes the woman not a wife but a mistress, who for some gifts presented to her is joined to the man to gratify his passion." Augustine, The Morals of the Manichees 18:65 (A.D. 388).
"Why do you sow where the field is eager to destroy the fruit, where there are medicines of sterility [oral contraceptives], where there is murder before birth? You do not even let a harlot remain only a harlot, but you make her a murderess as well…Indeed, it is something worse than murder, and I do not know what to call it; for she does not kill what is formed but prevents its formation. What then? Do you condemn the gift of God and fight with his [natural] laws?…Yet such turpitude…the matter still seems indifferent to many men—even to many men having wives. In this indifference of the married men there is greater evil filth; for then poisons are prepared, not against the womb of a prostitute, but against your injured wife. Against her are these innumerable tricks." John Chrysostom, Homilies on Romans 24 (A.D. 391).
"n truth, all men know that they who are under the power of this disease [the sin of covetousness] are wearied even of their father’s old age [wishing him to die so they can inherit]; and that which is sweet, and universally desirable, the having of children, they esteem grievous and unwelcome. Many at least with this view have even paid money to be childless, and have mutilated nature, not only killing the newborn, but even acting to prevent their beginning to live." John Chrysostom, Homilies on Matthew 28:5 (A.D. 391).
"[T]he man who has mutilated himself, in fact, is subject even to a curse, as Paul says, ‘I would that they who trouble you would cut the whole thing off’ [Gal. 5:12]. And very reasonably, for such a person is venturing on the deeds of murderers, and giving occasion to them that slander God’s creation, and opens the mouths of the Manicheans, and is guilty of the same unlawful acts as they that mutilate themselves among the Greeks. For to cut off our members has been from the beginning a work of demonical agency, and satanic device, that they may bring up a bad report upon the works of God, that they may mar this living creature, that imputing all not to the choice, but to the nature of our members, the more part of them may sin in security as being irresponsible, and doubly harm this living creature, both by mutilating the members and by impeding the forwardness of the free choice in behalf of good deeds." John Chrysostom, Homilies on Matthew 62:3 (A.D. 391).
"But I wonder why he [the heretic Jovinianus] set Judah and Tamar before us for an example, unless perchance even harlots give him pleasure; or Onan, who was slain because he grudged his brother seed. Does he imagine that we approve of any sexual intercourse except for the procreation of children?" Jerome, Against Jovinian 1:19 (A.D. 393).
"Observe how bitterly he [Paul] speaks against their deceivers…‘I would that they which trouble you would cut the whole thing off’ [Gal. 5:12]…On this account he curses them, and his meaning is as follows: ‘For them I have no concern, "A man that is heretical after the first and second admonition refuse" [Titus 3:10]. If they will, let them not only be circumcised but mutilated.’ Where then are those who dare to mutilate themselves, seeing that they draw down the apostolic curse, and accuse the workmanship of God, and take part with the Manichees?" John Chrysostom, Commentary on Galatians 5:12 (A.D. 395).
"You may see a number of women who are widows before they are wives. Others, indeed, will drink sterility and murder a man not yet born, [and some commit abortion]." Jerome, Letters 22:13 (A.D. 396).
"You [Manicheans] make your auditors adulterers of their wives when they take care lest the women with whom they copulate conceive. They take wives according to the laws of matrimony by tablets announcing that the marriage is contracted to procreate children; and then, fearing because of your law [against childbearing]…they copulate in a shameful union only to satisfy lust for their wives. They are unwilling to have children, on whose account alone marriages are made. How is it, then, that you are not those prohibiting marriage, as the apostle predicted of you so long ago [1 Tim. 4:1–4], when you try to take from marriage what marriage is? When this is taken away, husbands are shameful lovers, wives are harlots, bridal chambers are brothels, fathers-in-law are pimps.” Augustine, Against Faustus 15:7 (A.D. 400).
"For thus the eternal law, that is, the will of God creator of all creatures, taking counsel for the conservation of natural order, not to serve lust, but to see to the preservation of the race, permits the delight of mortal flesh to be released from the control of reason in copulation only to propagate progeny." Augustine, Against Faustus 22:30 (A.D. 400).
"For necessary sexual intercourse for begetting [children] is alone worthy of marriage. But that which goes beyond this necessity no longer follows reason but lust. And yet it pertains to the character of marriage…to yield it to the partner lest by fornication the other sin damnably [through adultery]…[T]hey [must] not turn away from them the mercy of God…by changing the natural use into that which is against nature, which is more damnable when it is done in the case of husband or wife. For, whereas that natural use, when it pass beyond the compact of marriage, that is, beyond the necessity of begetting [children], is pardonable in the case of a wife, damnable in the case of a harlot; that which is against nature is execrable when done in the case of a harlot, but more execrable in the case of a wife. Of so great power is the ordinance of the Creator, and the order of creation, that . . . when the man shall wish to use a body part of the wife not allowed for this purpose [orally or anally consummated sex], the wife is more shameful, if she suffer it to take place in her own case, than if in the case of another woman." Augustine, The Good of Marriage 11–12 (A.D. 401).
"I am supposing, then, although you are not lying [with your wife] for the sake of procreating offspring, you are not for the sake of lust obstructing their procreation by an evil prayer or an evil deed. Those who do this, although they are called husband and wife, are not; nor do they retain any reality of marriage, but with a respectable name cover a shame. Sometimes this lustful cruelty, or cruel lust, comes to this, that they even procure poisons of sterility…Assuredly if both husband and wife are like this, they are not married, and if they were like this from the beginning they come together not joined in matrimony but in seduction. If both are not like this, I dare to say that either the wife is in a fashion the harlot of her husband or he is an adulterer with his own wife." Augustine, Marriage and Concupiscence 1:15:17 (A.D. 419).
"Who is he who cannot warn that no woman may take a potion so that she is unable to conceive or condemns in herself the nature which God willed to be fecund? As often as she could have conceived or given birth, of that many homicides she will be held guilty, and, unless she undergoes suitable penance, she will be damned by eternal death in hell. If a woman does not wish to have children, let her enter into a religious agreement with her husband; for chastity is the sole sterility of a Christian woman." Caesarius of Arles, Sermons 1:12 (A.D. 522).
Using birth control is most certainly not a sin. In fact, using birth control is commendable. The reason is because using birth control is the responsible thing to do when you can't have or don't want children.
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You are the first person who I have come across who supports what I have been saying for years.

Many fundamentalist denominations and sects (Nearly all of them in fact) use the story of Onan to support their idea that masturbation is a sin. One day I was reading the Bible and came across the story of Onan. As I read it I quickly came to the conclusion, as you did, that the story had nothing to do with masturbation that some consider a form of birth control by oneself as well as a sin of spilling seed.

So if the sin in the story of Onan was not any form of spilling seed in and of itself, what was the sin he was obviously punished for?

To find out one must understand just exactly what Onan was commanded to do and the biblical context in which it was commanded.

The first conclusion I came to was pretty much the same as yours, that he was not upholding his obligation, under the law of the day, to father a child with his now deceased brother's wife. I also believe that it goes a little farther than that. Considering that bloodlines were perpetuated through the male offspring I believe that Onan was not only obligated to father a child with his widowed sister in law, but to do so again, as many times as necessary, until a son was produced.

However the second conclusion I came to was that Onan was also guilty of the sin of greed. Again, you have to look at the story in complete context regarding the way the laws were interpreted in Onan's day. Not only was the bloodline carried on only by male offspring, but so also was the succession of inheritance. The widow alone could not, by the law of the day, receive her dead husband’s share of his father’s estate. But if she had a son the son could receive the inheritance and thus secure for the widow and her family her rightful share of said inheritance. But if Onan refused to father a male heir for his brother’s widow he would get to keep it all. So I also added the sin of greed to his sin of disobedience to God’s law.
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Under the law of the day he could still have had it all without sinning, but only under special circumstances. They would be; if he did try to father a child and the widow was barren or if she did give birth but only to daughters. Only in such special circumstances could he have failed to help his widowed sister in law produce male off spring and still been faithful to God’s law.
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There is nothing wrong with birth control. I use it to prevent my ovarian cysts from coming back and to keep my periods regular, Also I really see nothing wrong with taking it to prevent pregnancy, It is not responsible to bring a child into this world that you in no way will be able to take care of. Or some people who would die if they got pregnant, they need it.

And to the people who say children suffer the most in divorce. Honestly, I have seen first hand how it effects kids whose parents "stay together for the kids" and can't be in the same room together without fighting.

My brother and his ex with whom he had my nephew, split up, and i think it was the healthy choice for all of them.
Well, getting you last will in order would be putting fear in to operation that your not going to make it. That is not faith.

I have laid hands on people and they have gotten healed instantly.
I assume this happens because God has to turn things around for them NOW, not when they get enough word to stand on their own.

A big misconception people have about healing is that it is instantaneous all the time.

Mar 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Recover, does not mean instant.

I have to agree with the fact that God gave us medicine. contraceptives are ok, but you need to be Spirit led, and listen to God before doing so. Some contraceptives change hormones in the body which can not always be good for you.

Jesus Is Lord.
Well I read the forum this morning, I have been trying to hang in here but like God says to us, I will not continue to strive with the human race forever. I will limit his life to 120 years so I do not have to put up with him so long. I have become so with fellow Christians. They really do not seek the truth, they simply follow and repeat things that are not of God. But of man.

Times change, the world grows, and God is very intelligent. So would he wish a family to have 12 children, be poor and have them suffer from hunger and lack of medical care?? Would he, ask yourself that one.

Just as in today many preachers are controlled by Satan, he is the ruler of the world, and he is in the bible very much so, he wishes to cause harm and discontent and confusion. Do not believe me, listen carefully. Listen, this is 100 percent true and you can apply this to many things. I use this as it is easy to understand. So Listen up.

A man was picking up sticks on the Sabbath and God ordered him stoned to death. Really. I guess so the bible says so. Has to be fact right? No it is the ruler of this world at work his clever way. The pride of the old priests did them in.

Go read where they brought the woman before God (Jesus) and told him she has committed adultery. We caught her in the act, this means in the act, Ok what happened to the man?? Where is he? Did not Moses in the law say both man and woman should be stoned to death. Not sure about that, go read it. That is what it says. Both shall be stoned. But where is the guy, why bring forth only the woman. Sounds like more confusion and nonsense to me.

What did God tell them?? He says leave it alone, I have no wish to stone this girl or harm her. Let the first one of you without sin cast the first stone. None of them could . So he told the girl to to and no sin anymore. That she was forgiven, he shows his grace and mercy. Has no wish to kill her. It is Satan at work, causing confusion and discontent and using the pride of the priests as their way as challenged and they wish to prove a point. It is man, not God who is at work with many stories in the Bible. A great many of them are mans ways. Not Gods. Those priests were living on the darkside, listening to Satan not God.

God did not order the man picking up sticks to be stoned. That was Moses and his way ,and the extreme culture of that time. Just as the Muslims still do this, or whip someone in the street or cut off their heads. And go home and pat themselves on the back and say, Gods will is done. Actually their will is done and God is sad. So he says I will not strive with them. I will limit their life, so they may come to me and learn in another way, another time and another way.

None of you can lay hands on anyone and heal them. None of you. That is your own pride and position. Not the position of God. It is your own pride and self importance that says I healed this man. I layed hands on him and presto magic he is better. Oh my. A simple prayer to God as he is real, will work much better than public shows of importance and self gratification to the one doing the healing.

Like I said, my wife needs new teeth, we are going to put a dollar in an envelope and send it to Benny Hinn so he can get up there with his big show and say.....I got this feeling, yep I do, this lady in South Carolina needs new teeth, I see them growing. Bright, new and how they shine. We been watching, have not seen any new teeth yet, but we do know he is real, he is of God, he lays on hands and people faint and they are healed. We must pray harder, maybe send him some more money. :shade: Yep more money that should do it.

So pick up your snakes, drink your poison, just make sure you have a good phone , you will need it. To call the ambulance. I do not know where that scripture came from but it was not from God. Years ago I saw a 4 year old girl die from snake bite and they let her. They could have called for help but they did not, they could heal her, so they did let her die. This occurred in Arkansas. Not sure which town it was in, or what the exact address would be, Elkins, Fayetteville, or some other small town, but I bet it is on the internet somewhere as it made the news. I think they put the parents in jail. She got bitten on a family outing on the White River about ten miles from where we lived.

On T.V. the other night was some of this snake handling stuff, but they were using copperheads, a mildly poison snake. Very wise, as a rattlesnake is very potent and you will not survive. And yes every once in awhile someone does get bit and die.

So believe all that if you will. I will not. I will not strive with worthless daily fights and discussions with the average blinded Christian either. As you will shorten my life if I take it serious.

God is fact, his message is in the mix of Man, God, proud priests and culture and tradition.

It is very simple. I created man for me. I wished a companion and a friend. They make me so sad, that I cry. I strived with them for years and they simply would not listen. I destroyed them once, and they did it again. So I came up with the perfect solution of salvation by grace. Yes I did destroy them once, this made me sad and to reflect on a better way. I will destroy the world again when it is time, as they just will not listen or learn. They are for my purpose and not of their own. But they will not listen.

As for me I accept what God has told me. He has saved me by grace as I could not ever accomplish it on my own. I listen to him and reject 99 percent of what the church teaches. I realize that God did not kill the man picking up sticks. And if I pick up a snake and challenge him I will get bit. If I wish to be healed, I need to talk to him and not a man.

See ya , time to go. I have reflected on this for a couple weeks. This internet thing is no different than the church, it is in fact a product of it.

I will pray for you all, to gain wisdom and knowledge. To temper your culture and hard feelings, but instead talk to God about things. And leave cultural judging out of things.

But I am done, out of here. As it like God makes me sad.

Can I just ask a question?

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with anyone here - Personally, I've been struggling with the right/wrongs of birth control for a while now and praying about it often. I'm getting married soon and I have several reasons for wanting to use the pill - Primarily because my mother is going through menopause and my cycle is totally wacky due to hormonal disturbances (Sorry guys -__-). I also, however, am of the mind that it's really irresponsible to bring a baby into the world that you aren't financially ready for and have always felt it's important for a husband and wife to have time together alone before they have children.

At the same time, I struggle with thinking... is birth control biblically wrong? Is it morally wrong? I've heard all the arguments and nothing has cleared it up for me... so I prayed about and I think what God's given me is a pretty good revelation...

Surely, as I have thought and planned, so shall it come to pass, and as I have purposed, so shall it stand. For the Lord of hosts has purposed, and who can annul it? And His hand is stretched out, and who can turn it back? – Is. 14:24-27;

But Jesus looked at them and said, With men this is impossible, but all things are possible with God. – Matt. 19:26

In Him we also were made God's heritage and we obtained an inheritance; for we had been foreordained (chosen and appointed beforehand) in accordance with His purpose, Who works out everything in agreement with the counsel and design of His own will, – Eph. 1:11

For with God nothing is ever impossible and no word from God shall be without power or impossible of fulfillment. – Luke 1:37

... It also says in the bible that God is a God of PEACE, not Confusion... that we should worry or fear. (1st Cor. 14:33, Phil 4:6, John 14:27)

... And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. - Exodus 3:14

In short... Why are we arguing about this at all? Aren't we, by worrying about it thereby limiting the power of God, who... let's face it, is ALL POWERFUL? If God wants you to have a baby, He's not going to be limited because you're taking a pill. If God wants you -not- to have a baby, He's not going to be thwarted because you're not using a contraceptive. Ultimately, trying to find verses that support or go against Birth Control is pointless... Abraham and Sarah and Elizabeth and Zacharias were ancient, but they still had babies. Mary was a young girl and had never been with a man... SHE had a baby.

If we start to limit God's potential, aren't we essentially limiting our FAITH in Him and in what He can do?

Follow your own conviction (read 1 Cor 8). PRAY. God won't lead you astray. But don't take God's word out of context and remember that HE... and only He is the judge of man's heart. Should we correct each other in love? Sure! But reserve the fire and brimstone for the Maker of Heaven and Earth...
I think God gave us wisdom and the ability to think for a reason. I also think to use this wisdom also brings God Glory to do the right things and to make wise family decisions. Just as sin can cause unwanted consequences so can unwise decisions such as too large a family and not being able to provide for them. This also can bring unwanted consequences.

So to put off having children for a time so that you are more able to provide for them and to center attention on a family is wisdom.

To regulate the size of a family to suit your financial means and the ability to care for the family is wisdom.

So Wisdom does bring Glory to God, you have used it to do exactly what he wishes, to have a happy and adequate family but not be burdened over your means.

Nothing in the Bible really addresses this, so you just have to ask God and figure it out, and that is his answer to me.

Besides birth control is no obstacle to God, If a certain child is supposed to be born and has a reason to be, I figure birth control would not be any obstacle to God.

A man was picking up sticks on the Sabbath and God ordered him stoned to death. Really. I guess so the bible says so. Has to be fact right? No it is the ruler of this world at work his clever way. The pride of the old priests did them in.
Num 15:32-36 NKJV Now while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering sticks on the Sabbath day. (33) And those who found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses and Aaron, and to all the congregation. (34) They put him under guard, because it had not been explained what should be done to him. (35) Then the LORD said to Moses, "The man must surely be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp." (36) So, as the LORD commanded Moses, all the congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him with stones, and he died.
As for me I accept what God has told me. He has saved me by grace as I could not ever accomplish it on my own. I listen to him and reject 99 percent of what the church teaches. I realize that God did not kill the man picking up sticks. And if I pick up a snake and challenge him I will get bit. If I wish to be healed, I need to talk to him and not a man.
Why don't you accept that God ordered the man who picked up sticks on the Sabbath to be stoned to death? It's from the same bible that we know of salvation by grace.
Num 15:32-36 NKJV Now while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering sticks on the Sabbath day. (33) And those who found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses and Aaron, and to all the congregation. (34) They put him under guard, because it had not been explained what should be done to him. (35) Then the LORD said to Moses, "The man must surely be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp." (36) So, as the LORD commanded Moses, all the congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him with stones, and he died.
Why don't you accept that God ordered the man who picked up sticks on the Sabbath to be stoned to death? It's from the same bible that we know of salvation by grace.

No fuss from me, I like all can think wrong things and that post was how long ago?? I did used to listen to other men about things, and allow them to lead me.

You will find me a great challenge now, as I finally got it, the light bulb came on. I no longer listen to other men.

My answer that is not misguided is as such.

God ordered Moses to have the man stoned to death. At this time and place God had given the Jews specific laws. The laws were to govern society.

You also have to realize that God knows each heart and its intent, so the man picking up sticks in violation of the law, was not on a stroll through the camp picking up one or two sticks, he was out deliberately in violation and in contest with the law of God at the time.

There is also the factor of control and discipline, just like men are taught in the military to obey, or suffer consequences, so were men under the law taught that if the law was not obeyed, consequences are a result.

No sir, God in his judgement did in fact order the man stoned.

I apologize for any wrong statements and at that time I was listening to the liberal views of men, poor man, such a shame, bad God,,why kill a man for a few sticks......I had let men influence my way of thinking.

Never fear, God fixed it.......he always does.

We are now not under that law, most people in fact do stop to eat after church or buy something or do some work......so this new way becomes confused with the old way.......so now I ignore the old way and simply accept the new way.....getting into great intelligent discussions about the old way....

Well you see......how I stumbled........good example.

But God took care of it........said Hey Kit......you dummie, listen up.

Do not listen to men.

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