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Believe it or not

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judge not

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Feb 16, 2011
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God is not trying to save or convert the world now.
And God did not send His Son, Jesus, to save mankind during His time.

Remember God is all powerful- if He wanted to save everyone now, He would do it.
It's a matter of when He will save everyone, but it's not in this age.
2 Cor: 4:3-4 God says this is satan's world or age. And Satan deceives the whole world - Rev 12:9
God has allowed satan to rule this world, this age. If He wanted to stop satan He would have done it.
God has not even tried to save most people now.
Few people will find salvation now - Matt 7;13. There are over 2 billion Christians today.
Does few mean 2.1 billion or does few mean a smaller number?
If God was trying to save the world now, He is not doing a very good job
2 out of 3 human beings, about 4 billion are not practicing any kind of Christianity today.

why did Jesus speak in parables? He did so most people wouldn't understand. Mark 4:11-12
The mystery of the Kingdom is being hidden from most people today.
Hundreds of millions of Christians have never heard the true gospel of the Kingdom of God Jesus spoke.
God has allowed most people to go their own way under satan's influence.
God is not NOW calling most people to salvation that will happen later after the second coming of Christ to rule over the earth.
God is working His plan over a 7,000 year period allowing humans to experience living their own way.
Those few He is calling now will be His " firstfruits " and will be kings and priests in God's Kingdom ruling with Him in the last 1,000 years
of His plan.
Afterwards, every human-Muslim, Hindu, Buddhists, atheists and Christian from the beginning of time not called will be given the
opportunity to be saved in the Great White Throne Judgment.
This fulfills God's promise that everyone whoever existed will have a chance for eternal life and not perish,
and only then will we all be spiritual beings in the Family of God.

That is the reason God created us.
 
This fulfills God's promise that everyone whoever existed will have a chance for eternal life and not perish,
and only then will we all be spiritual beings in the Family of God.

I am curious, where is this promise?

Heb 9:27; And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,

Rev 20:12; And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.
Rev 20:13; And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.
Rev 20:15; And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

It seems that God's sovereignty depends on how many people get saved here. I think everyone dies only once. After that, the judgment.
God is God no matter how many get saved. When Adam and Eve ate the fruit in the garden, 100% of mankind was in sin. Did God quit being God
during this time?

It is God's will that everyone be saved, but you only get one chance.2 Pet 3:9; The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
1 Tim 2:3; This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1 Tim 2:4; who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth

However most will not.
Matt 7:13; "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
Matt 7:22; "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
Matt 7:23; "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'
Matt 22:14; "For many are called, but few are chosen."
Matt 24:10; "At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another.

There are over 2 billion Christians today.
Does few mean 2.1 billion or does few mean a smaller number?
If God was trying to save the world now, He is not doing a very good job


2 billion Christians, are they really Christians? Or are they just claiming to be Christians?
Maybe God;s priority isn't saving the world so much as giving us the choice now to follow Him.

Php 2:10; so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
Php 2:11; and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

One day everyone since the beginning of time will say "Jesus Christ is Lord". They won't be able to deny it standing in heaven before the throne
of God. But even then, it will be too late for them. The choice for Jesus to be Lord has to happen in this life.
 
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I am curious, where is this promise?

Heb 9:27; And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,

Rev 20:12; And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.
Rev 20:13; And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.
Rev 20:15; And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

It seems that God's sovereignty depends on how many people get saved here. I think everyone dies only once. After that, the judgment.
God is God no matter how many get saved. When Adam and Eve ate the fruit in the garden, 100% of mankind was in sin. Did God quit being God
during this time?

It is God's will that everyone be saved, but you only get one chance.2 Pet 3:9; The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
1 Tim 2:3; This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1 Tim 2:4; who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth

However most will not.
Matt 7:13; "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
Matt 7:22; "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
Matt 7:23; "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'
Matt 22:14; "For many are called, but few are chosen."
Matt 24:10; "At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another.



2 billion Christians, are they really Christians? Or are they just claiming to be Christians?
Maybe God;s priority isn't saving the world so much as giving us the choice now to follow Him.

Php 2:10; so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
Php 2:11; and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

One day everyone since the beginning of time will say "Jesus Christ is Lord". They won't be able to deny it standing in heaven before the throne
of God. But even then, it will be too late for them. The choice for Jesus to be Lord has to happen in this life.

B-A-C quoted - " The choice for Jesus to be Lord has to happen in this life "

How do the people now and in the past - billions - who have never heard of or exposed to our Lord Jesus get their first chance at salvation in this life?

Also the Bible tells us nobody has or will be going to heaven John 3:13

Revelation 20 shows a judgment of everyone else who ever lived risen from the dead after the 1,000 yrs millennial reign of Jesus on earth and this takes place here on earth known as the Great White Throne Judgment. Judgment happens after they have been taught from the Bible the truth and the way and their fate is decided then.
How could Jesus otherwise judge them if they never experienced His teachings and commandments in their lifetime?
 
B-A-C quoted -
Also the Bible tells us nobody has or will be going to heaven John 3:13
Whew, 'Judge-Not' ... yuh had me agreeing with you wholeheartedly concerning many issues you have been discussing here ... but this particular idea, (in my opinion), is a bit on the wild side.
Ummm, howz 'bout you consider this:
I'm old enough to recall when the Russian astronaut maintained that he had been in heaven but had not met either God nor angels there. As Christians, we know that this good man spoke in error. He made the same mistake those decades ago that many Christians continue to make in this very day. He had confused heaven with the firmament. He hadn't been in heaven at all. No rocket ship can deliver us to Heaven because it's a spiritual dimension.

Let's first try and solve this first question: by what means did the apostle John enter into heaven?
We read in Revelation 4:1 that he saw "in heaven an open door". Then he heard a voice which said "Come up hither". The next verse tells us how the apostle responded to this invitation, "At once I was in the Spirit, and lo, a throne stood in heaven.". John found himself in heaven by means of a spiritual transposition. The only logical conclusion is that we must not imagine heaven as being a 'place somewhere in the universe'. Heaven is not a 'place', but a situation, a spiritual dimension, a transcendent reality.

According to John 14:3, Jesus said "And when I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also". The expression "where I am" seems so very strange in this context. So much so, that some translators felt compelled to mistakenly render it as "where I shall be".
Where was Jesus when He spoke these words, "where I am"? On the earth, indeed with his disciples. Nevertheless, at the same time He was "in my Father's house", that is heaven.

We find a similar thought in John 7:34, "You will seek me and not find me; where I am you cannot come". (See verse 36 also). Where was it that Jesus found Himself and where the unbelieving Jews couldn't reach Him? The answer is clear - in heaven!
As long as these Jews remained unbelieving and would not receive His Spirit, the spiritual dimension in which the Lord lived would remain inaccessible to them. Jesus' own testimony, (John 3:13), voices this same thought: "No one has ascended into heaven but he who descended from heaven, the Son of man". Note that the Lord was not speaking of a future event here. He wasn't talking about his Ascension, but rather about something which had already taken place. Insofar as the "Word had become flesh", the Lord was able to descend from heaven. It was by means of His baptism in the Spirit that Jesus entered into heaven.

Don't yuh think that It's remarkable that, in the King James' version, this statement of the Lord is followed by a repetition of the same "... even the Son of man which is in heaven.." It is as if the Lord wanted to lay stress on the fact that He was speaking of a matter which already was a reality to Him. As if He wanted to say: "Just listen! I have already ascended, I am already in heaven". The entire sentence construction is so strange that the R.S.V. just left it out: - and, 'JudgeNot', evidently so have you.

The Bible says, "God ... raised us up with him, and made us sit with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus"... (Eph 2:6). Unfortunately, us Christians oftentimes don't seem to be sufficiently conscious of this spiritual reality. Yeah, every now and then our spiritual eyes have become opened to it, by means of a vision, a revelation, or a discernment of spirits. However, it's the Lord's intention that we should continually move about in this heavenly dimension. God earnestly desires that we live in heaven ... in the same way as Jesus lived in heaven during His life on earth. Jesus himself prayed for the realization of this spiritual fact in the lives of his followers saying, "Father, I desire that they also, whom thou hast given me, may be with me where I am (!), to behold my glory which thou hast given me...", (John 17:24).
'JudgeNot', your Post appears to be suggesting that us Christians should refrain from allowing our Savior's prayer to be worked out in our lives. Speaking for myself, I always try to obey this Scriptural advice: "Set your minds on things that are above, not on things that are on earth. For you have died, and your life is hid with Christ in God.", (Col. 3:2-3).
 
W He had confused heaven with the firmament. He hadn't been in heaven at all. No rocket ship can deliver us to Heaven because it's a spiritual dimension.

A spiritual dimension? So in Genesis 1:1 , the heaven and earth are just spiritual places?

While one might consider that heaven is the expanse of space, or firmament that forms the spherical body of this physical world we call the universe. The reason for such consideration is Genesis 1:6 & 7;

And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

Since the waters upon the face of the earth were formed as the atoms of oxygen released from within would bond with the hydrogen particles from without. As thus these two types of gases bonded to form the new molecule, water. While the newly formed gas would formed as a gas, or water vapor, in less than a blink of an eye it would solidified as ice since the waters that covered the entire surface of the spherical terrestrial body called Earth was frozen as represented by the scriptures in Genesis. 1:2

***
Don't need a rocket ship to reach Heaven. According to Genesis 1:8 And God called firmament [in midst of the waters] Heaven.

While it is written that God made the male and female, and they became one flesh, it is interesting to note, [me at least to me] that the hydrogen atom is the only atom known in universe which consists of only the proton and neutron. And thus, the hydrogen atom was formed by the proton and neutron which where joined together to form the first Atom. In a lighthearted looked at the Biblical account, on could look at it as when the Lights made atom in the their image after the likeness made he him, proton and neutron made he them. If they were made as atom with mass, then how many atoms did the Lights make? So if hydrogen is the only atom that consists of a proton and neutron, what other atom with only a proton and neutron could have told them they could eat of any of the particles in the garden? If the atom has the same atomic number, so to speak, then would it not also be a hydrogen atom.

I understand that is written we are not to judge others, and thus I neither a judge one based on the presumption of what they said without understanding what they meant., and when it comes to matters of faith, that is between them and their God but I love it when scientists say that those who have faith in Genesis are ignorant and don't understand how science works or those of us who do wouldn't believe the foolishness of the Bible. Not all scientist hold their fellow man in such contempt, and neither do I. That isn't to say that I don't hate them which speak lies and falsehoods, which I do with every color of my soul since it is written that we are to be perfect as our Father which is in heaven is perfect. Believe it or not.
 
A spiritual dimension? So in Genesis 1:1 , the heaven and earth are just spiritual places?

While one might consider that heaven is the expanse of space, or firmament that forms the spherical body of this physical world we call the universe. The reason for such consideration is Genesis 1:6 & 7;

And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

Since the waters upon the face of the earth were formed as the atoms of oxygen released from within would bond with the hydrogen particles from without. As thus these two types of gases bonded to form the new molecule, water. While the newly formed gas would formed as a gas, or water vapor, in less than a blink of an eye it would solidified as ice since the waters that covered the entire surface of the spherical terrestrial body called Earth was frozen as represented by the scriptures in Genesis. 1:2

***
Don't need a rocket ship to reach Heaven. According to Genesis 1:8 And God called firmament [in midst of the waters] Heaven.

While it is written that God made the male and female, and they became one flesh, it is interesting to note, [me at least to me] that the hydrogen atom is the only atom known in universe which consists of only the proton and neutron. And thus, the hydrogen atom was formed by the proton and neutron which where joined together to form the first Atom. In a lighthearted looked at the Biblical account, on could look at it as when the Lights made atom in the their image after the likeness made he him, proton and neutron made he them. If they were made as atom with mass, then how many atoms did the Lights make? So if hydrogen is the only atom that consists of a proton and neutron, what other atom with only a proton and neutron could have told them they could eat of any of the particles in the garden? If the atom has the same atomic number, so to speak, then would it not also be a hydrogen atom.

I understand that is written we are not to judge others, and thus I neither a judge one based on the presumption of what they said without understanding what they meant., and when it comes to matters of faith, that is between them and their God but I love it when scientists say that those who have faith in Genesis are ignorant and don't understand how science works or those of us who do wouldn't believe the foolishness of the Bible. Not all scientist hold their fellow man in such contempt, and neither do I. That isn't to say that I don't hate them which speak lies and falsehoods, which I do with every color of my soul since it is written that we are to be perfect as our Father which is in heaven is perfect. Believe it or not.

Ummm, 'WaterRock', you would do better by not reading portions of Genesis as strictly literal. That's because portions of Genesis are something near a parable. "All these things Jesus spoke to the crowds in parables, and He did not speak to them without a parable. This was to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet: "I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things hidden since the foundation of the world".
Several other OT narratives too employ visible images to reveal invisible realities. It's precisely this failure which has caused many Christians to adhere to the utterly obscene and pagan idea that our loving and merciful Father would condemn all of creation and the entire humankind for the simple act of disobedience by the first human couple.
God, as the Great Architect/Creator of all things visible and invisible, did not behave in similar fashion as man. An earthly architect first designs a shadow of the concept, and then afterwards constructs the building itself. But God doesn't work in this manner. This is because God dwells in a heavenly/spiritual dimension where it could be said that eternity has is already past/passed for Him. No, God first created the building, (invisible world), and named it heaven. Afterwards, He created a physical 'shadow' of that invisible reality and named it 'earth'.
Additionally:
Yes, the Bible speaks to us about an invisible world an unseen reality, the eternal dimension of our existence. The invisible eternal world is just as real as that of the visible temporal world. The Bible calls this the " Kingdom of Heaven".
The Gospel of Jesus makes it abundantly evident that we are not only physical beings, but that we are also spiritual beings. We possess a spirit and that is why we are attached to the spiritual world. This invisible dimension of our existence was clearly pronounced and repeatedly taught by Jesus and His disciples as well as by the early apostolic churches. One only has to read the various discussions and teachings that Jesus addressed throughout His ministry for instance, Matthew 13.
The secret or mystery of the Kingdom of Heaven was "declared at first by the Lord", (Heb 2:3). He did this by means of parables. Indeed, this was His commission. He preached a new teaching and thus fulfilled what was spoken by the prophet, "I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things that have been hidden since the foundation of the world", (Matt 13:35; Ps 78:2).
Repeatedly throughout the Gospel narratives we read the testimonies of the Apostles preaching, "the Gospel of the Kingdom". It was not a gospel about Jesus, rather, it was the Gospel OF Jesus.
When taking leave of the elders in Ephesus, Paul said that he had gone around "proclaiming the Kingdom", (Acts 20:25). He wrote to the Romans, "So that starting from Jerusalem and as far round as Illyricum I have fully preached the Gospel OF Christ, the Messiah, in its entirety", (Rom 15:16-l9). It is clear from his statement in Ephesians 3:4-5 that He declared the mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven: "When you read this you can perceive my insight into the mystery, (eg: the gospel), of Christ. This mystery was never disclosed to human beings in past generations as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets by the Holy Spirit". His thoughts were not focused on the things that were seen but the things which were unseen: "Since we consider and look not to the things that are seen but to the things that are unseen; for the things that are visible are temporal but the things which are invisible are deathless and everlasting", (2Cor 4:18).
The gospel about Jesus is the indispensable milk. Nevertheless, of itself, it is insufficient to bring about the development from children of God to mature spiritual manhood. It is preaching the gospel OF Jesus which is necessary for this development to take place and this gospel is the same message, which Jesus Himself preached when He lived on the earth.
The Gospel according to Mark begins with the words, "The beginning of the Gospel OF Jesus Christ, the Son of God". From town to town, Jesus brought a special message about the Kingdom of Heaven and signs and miracles of restoration went with His preaching. Matthew 4:23 says: "And He went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues and preaching the gospel of the Kingdom and healing every disease and every infirmity among the people". This was the Gospel of Jesus!
Addendum:
The evil one is constantly occupied with falsehood and insinuations that fasten suspicion on the plans and intentions of God. When his first falsehood was uttered on earth, (in the Garden of Eden), and believed by man, it ushered in a darkness which has prevailed over the mind of natural man from that point onward.
The lie of Satan was that God knows good and evil out of Himself; His thoughts produce not only good but also evil. The truth is this: Although God knows evil from the activities of the evil one, He never brings it about.
The people of Israel did not perceive the true causes of sin and sickness. In 1Sam 16:14 we read: “An evil spirit from the Lord tormented him”. In this people too, the forces of lawlessness were at work. However, the mystery of lawlessness --- its origin or secret --- remained unknown to them. The mystery of the Kingdom of Heaven --- the unseen world of the spirits --- had not yet been revealed. The New Covenant, however, was entered into with spiritual people, and to them the evil one is known as the originator of all evil and suffering.
Reading the Old Covenant we note that no one reckoned with the fact that God’s purpose with man far exceeded man’s natural development alone. The Old Testament faithful sang: “The heavens are the Lord’s heavens, but the earth He has given to the sons of men”, (Ps 115:16).
Isaiah mentioned a “covering that is cast over all the peoples, a veil that is spread over all the nations”, (25:7). With the veil of the evil one’s lie darkening their minds, the people of the Old Covenant, ’ Israel after the flesh’, (not unlike many Christians in our days), failed to perceive the true causes of lawlessness and of sin and disease.
In the case of the Gentiles, the covering had become very dense. Paul said of the Gentiles that they failed to use their common sense, “for His invisible nature, namely His eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made. So. They are without excuse”. They had become fools for they testified, (similar to Greek mythology), ‘Our gods are like us!'. They had exchanged the truth about God for that defamatory lie uttered in the Garden by the Ancient Serpent. The god of this world had blinded their minds. Their thoughts were darkened so that they failed to see the light of the Gospel of the glory of Christ, Who is in the likeness of God, (2Cor 4:3-4).
The ruthless lie of the Evil One that God knows good and evil of Himself penetrated to such a degree with the people of the Old Covenant that they ascribed all manifestations from out of the unseen world to God whether of good or evil intent. Their blind testimony was as such, "The secret things belong to the Lord our God; but the things that are revealed belong to us", (Deut 29:29).
In the Old Covenant, the veil was not removed for Israel .God took these peoples by the hand as little children, "On the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt for they did not continue in My Covenant", (Heb 8:9).
At first, God also spoke to Moses through a veil. He said, "Go to the Pharaoh". The reply of Moses was, "I am not eloquent but I am slow of speech and of tongue". Then the Lord asked, "Who has made man's mouth? Who makes him deaf, or dumb, or seeing or blind? Is it not I, the Lord? Moses recognized that evil originated in the unseen world but he did not know of the Kingdom of God --- the Kingdom of Light --- and the Kingdom of Satan --- the Kingdom of Darkness. These Kingdoms were mysteries to him, for he lacked discernment of the spiritual world. Jesus was the first Who uncovered the mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven.
God did not discuss with Moses the fact that the evil one makes dumb, deaf and blind. Later, our Lord would go about to destroy the works of the Devil. God only said, 'Moses, I'll help you; trust in Me'. But Moses did not believe Him, and he said, "Send someone else". Then the anger of the Lord was kindled against Moses, and what was the result? The Lord helped Moses in his weakness and promised him the assistance of Aaron his brother.
There also was a veil over Job's mind. He said: "Shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil?", (Job 2:10). Yet the same chapter says quite clearly that Satan afflicted Job with loathsome sores from the sole of his foot to the crown of his head, (vs7).
Eliphaz also claimed that God was the cause of evil. He formulated it in these words: "Behold, happy is the man who God reproves; therefore despise not the chastisement of the Almighty. For He wounds and He binds up; He smites, but His hands heal", (Job 5:17-18). But the Lord said to Eliphaz that he had not spoken of Him what is right, as Job had.
Job, too, failed to see that God is only and completely good. But, at least he confessed this truth, "Who is it that hides counsel without knowledge?. Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand, things too wonderful to me which I did not know. I had heard of Thee by the hearing of the ear, but now my eye sees Thee; therefore I despise myself and repent in dust and ashes", (Job 42:3-6).
Job finally saw that there was one who had given a false picture of the thoughts God had about man --- that it was the evil one who had put the veil over his mind. God does not do good and evil, but only good. James added this remark to the story of Job, "Have you now seen that God is the Father of lights? Look at Job. The Devil made him sick, but from the end that the Lord made to follow, you have seen that the Lord is compassionate and merciful", (James 5:11).
2 Samuel has another example: We read that God incited David to number the people. But a later record corrects this mistake and says, "Satan stood up against Israel and incited David to number Israel ", (1 Chron 21:1). The writer of Chronicles had a greater insight into the Kingdom of Heaven than he who wrote Samuel.
Up to this day, many do not know the mystery of lawlessness. They say, 'God may be good, but when you go too far, you have to look out for Him'. Thus, many thousands of people in their early years have the fear that God will throw the man, the woman and even the child into hell, where the worm will not die and the fire not quenched. However, man only perishes if he loves darkness rather than light. God does not throw him into the lake of fire, but man lands there by his own choice --- is dragged there by the same demons which were permitted by the person to attach themselves to his inner-man and thus share in their punishment.
This veil --- this covering that hid the insidious lie first uttered in the Garden of Eden --- can only be removed through Christ Who bore witness to the Truth, (2 Cor 3:14), of God’s being. In reply to Pilate's inquiry, Jesus declared of Himself, "To this end I was born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth", (John 18:37).

Finally, he who lives from out of the reality of the Gospel of the Kingdom can ban every fear from his life: fear of sickness, fear of daily bread, fear of failure, and the multitude of other opposition. He can possess the sure knowledge that God is only and completely good. He who consciously lives in the Kingdom of God experiences the glorious reality of it in daily living and comes to know true peace, joy and righteousness in the Holy Spirit.
 
@judge not

Your perception and understanding of these Scripture passages you've quoted are completely flawed. Do you have a study bible? Use it, or buy one if you don't.

Also the Bible tells us nobody has or will be going to heaven John 3:13

That is absolutely not what that verse is saying at all.

Here are bible notes and commentaries that explain this. Not my opinion, but true interpretation

RSB
John 3:13
who descended from heaven. It could be said that in His divine nature Christ continued to dwell “in heaven” even during His life on earth. The point is that He has authority to speak of heavenly things. Later in the Gospel, Jesus’ origin “from heaven” becomes a chief matter of dispute

Matthew Henry Commentary

Our Lord Jesus, and he alone, was fit to reveal to us a doctrine thus certain, thus sublime: No man hath ascended up into heaven but he, John 3:13.

First, None but Christ was able to reveal to us the will of God for our salvation. Nicodemus addressed Christ as a prophet; but he must know that he is greater than all the Old-Testament prophets, for none of them had ascended into heaven. They wrote by divine inspiration, and not of their own knowledge; see John 1:18. Moses ascended into the mount, but not into heaven. No man hath attained to the certain knowledge of God and heavenly things as Christ has; see Matt. 11:27. It is not for us to send to heaven for instructions; we must wait to receive what instructions Heaven will send to us; see Prov. 30:4; Deut. 30:12.

Secondly, Jesus Christ is able, and fit, and every way qualified, to reveal the will of God to us; for it is he that came down from heaven and is in heaven. He had said (John 3:12), How shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? Now here, 1. He gives them an instance of those heavenly things which he could tell them of, when he tells them of one that came down from heaven, and yet is the Son of man; is the Son of man, and yet is in heaven. If the regeneration of the soul of man is such a mystery, what then is the incarnation of the Son of God? These are divine and heavenly things indeed. We have here an intimation of Christ’s two distinct natures in one person: his divine nature, in which he came down from heaven; his human nature, in which he is the Son of man; and that union of those two, in that while he is the Son of man yet he is in heaven. 2. He gives them a proof of his ability to speak to them heavenly things, and to lead them into the arcana of the kingdom of heaven, by telling them,

1. That he came down from heaven. The intercourse settled between God and man began above; the first motion towards it did not arise from this earth, but came down from heaven. We love him, and send to him, because he first loved us, and sent to us. Now this intimates, [1.] Christ’s divine nature. He that came down from heaven is certainly more than a mere man; he is the Lord from heaven, 1 Cor. 15:47. [2.] His intimate acquaintance with the divine counsels; for, coming from the court of heaven, he had been from eternity conversant with them. [3.] The manifestation of God. Under the Old Testament God’s favours to his people are expressed by his hearing from heaven (2 Chron. 7:14), looking from heaven (Ps. 80:14), speaking from heaven (Neh. 9:13), sending from heaven, Ps. 57:3. But the New Testament shows us God coming down from heaven, to teach and save us. That he thus descended is an admirable mystery, for the Godhead cannot change places, nor did he bring his body from heaven; but that he thus condescended for our redemption is a more admirable mercy; herein he commended his love.

2. That he is the Son of man, that Son of man spoken of by Daniel (Dan. 7:13), by which the Jews always understand to be meant the Messiah. Christ, in calling himself the Son of man, shows that he is the second Adam, for the first Adam was the father of man. And of all the Old-Testament titles of the Messiah he chose to make use of this, because it was most expressive of his humility, and most agreeable to his present state of humiliation.

3. That he is in heaven. Now at this time, when he is talking with Nicodemus on earth, yet, as God, he is in heaven. The Son of man, as such, was not in heaven till his ascension; but he that was the Son of man was now, by his divine nature, every where present, and particularly in heaven. Thus the Lord of glory, as such, could not be crucified, nor could God, as such, shed his blood; yet that person who was the Lord of glory was crucified (1 Cor. 2:8), and God purchased the church with his own blood, Acts 20:28. So close is the union of the two natures in one person that there is a communication of properties. He doth not say hos esti. GOD is the ho on to ouranohe that is, and heaven is the habitation of his holiness.
 
Is that what the Bible teaches you?
No, in all honesty, the answer is: "No".
The literal Bible didn't teach me this truth ... Jesus, the first born of the new creation, (which we too are now enjoying), taught me ... through His deeds, actions and words. (as recorded in Scripture). :)
 
@judge not

God is not trying to save or convert the world now.
And God did not send His Son, Jesus, to save mankind during His time.

Both of these statements are false

Remember God is all powerful- if He wanted to save everyone now, He would do it.
It's a matter of when He will save everyone, but it's not in this age.

This is also false..... It is not ever going to be up to God to save any one. We must choose to ask Him into our lives.
He is all powerful but He decided long ago to not force man into loving Him or excepting Him. That is all on us.


2 Cor: 4:3-4 God says this is satan's world or age. And Satan deceives the whole world - Rev 12:9

No actually it says..........V3 KJV... But if our Gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost;
V4 KJV... In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine untyo them.
Now then lets look at the phrase "god of this world" yes this is satan but the world here is meant as the worlds system or the worlds ways or another words the bablyonian system. This is where he is god of. The devil lost all that control when Jesus defeated him and took back the keys of death.

God has allowed satan to rule this world, this age. If He wanted to stop satan He would have done it.
God has not even tried to save most people now.

Again this simply is not true at all. God has given us authority over the devil. It is our job to keep him pout of our life and family and church and so forth through His written word.
God has us under a time of GRACE........that is exactly what He is doing is giving His creation more time to repent or turn to Him.

Few people will find salvation now - Matt 7;13. There are over 2 billion Christians today.
Does few mean 2.1 billion or does few mean a smaller number?
If God was trying to save the world now, He is not doing a very good job
2 out of 3 human beings, about 4 billion are not practicing any kind of Christianity today.

Your view of things astounds me.
God is doing a perfect job but it is man who fails or fouls things up. If those numbers of people who are not saved seem big it is because we are not doing our Job here and getting the love of God to them. Thimnk about that.

why did Jesus speak in parables? He did so most people wouldn't understand. Mark 4:11-12
The mystery of the Kingdom is being hidden from most people today.
Hundreds of millions of Christians have never heard the true gospel of the Kingdom of God Jesus spoke.

The mytery of the written word of God is only hidden from those who do not have His spirit and seek Him diligerntly.
Even a carnal minded Christian will not unlock the mysteries of thr written word of God.

For the rest of this post.......all I can say is really ?
God Bless you
Jim

God has allowed most people to go their own way under satan's influence.
God is not NOW calling most people to salvation that will happen later after the second coming of Christ to rule over the earth.
God is working His plan over a 7,000 year period allowing humans to experience living their own way.
Those few He is calling now will be His " firstfruits " and will be kings and priests in God's Kingdom ruling with Him in the last 1,000 years
of His plan.
Afterwards, every human-Muslim, Hindu, Buddhists, atheists and Christian from the beginning of time not called will be given the
opportunity to be saved in the Great White Throne Judgment.
This fulfills God's promise that everyone whoever existed will have a chance for eternal life and not perish,
and only then will we all be spiritual beings in the Family of God.

That is the reason God created us.
[/QUOTE]
 
God is not trying to save or convert the world now.
And God did not send His Son, Jesus, to save mankind during His time.

Remember God is all powerful- if He wanted to save everyone now, He would do it.
It's a matter of when He will save everyone, but it's not in this age.
2 Cor: 4:3-4 God says this is satan's world or age. And Satan deceives the whole world - Rev 12:9
God has allowed satan to rule this world, this age. If He wanted to stop satan He would have done it.
God has not even tried to save most people now.
Few people will find salvation now - Matt 7;13. There are over 2 billion Christians today.
Does few mean 2.1 billion or does few mean a smaller number?
If God was trying to save the world now, He is not doing a very good job
2 out of 3 human beings, about 4 billion are not practicing any kind of Christianity today.

why did Jesus speak in parables? He did so most people wouldn't understand. Mark 4:11-12
The mystery of the Kingdom is being hidden from most people today.
Hundreds of millions of Christians have never heard the true gospel of the Kingdom of God Jesus spoke.
God has allowed most people to go their own way under satan's influence.
God is not NOW calling most people to salvation that will happen later after the second coming of Christ to rule over the earth.
God is working His plan over a 7,000 year period allowing humans to experience living their own way.
Those few He is calling now will be His " firstfruits " and will be kings and priests in God's Kingdom ruling with Him in the last 1,000 years
of His plan.
Afterwards, every human-Muslim, Hindu, Buddhists, atheists and Christian from the beginning of time not called will be given the
opportunity to be saved in the Great White Throne Judgment.
This fulfills God's promise that everyone whoever existed will have a chance for eternal life and not perish,
and only then will we all be spiritual beings in the Family of God.

That is the reason God created us.

Apparently you have a different bible than everyone else. NO ONE will be given any opportunity to be saved at the GWT Judgment of God. He says to us: "Today is the day of salvation". Jesus didn't suffer and willingly be put to death so that we could all just sit around and wait until Judgment Day! No, countless people are being saved every day, and God is working in the world to bring that about by His Spirit!

Your notions are not taught by anyone but someone who is most likely self-taught and not tempered by God-given spiritual leaders that He sends His kids to lead in the way of Christ and to teach and to correct. You stand corrected on nearly every point you've made. It's odd that you call yourself "Judge Not", but yet you dare to judge God Himself by saying, "If God was trying to save the world now, He is not doing a very good job". Perhaps you can give thought to the truth that we believers are charged with preaching the gospel message to the world, and Holy Spirit does the convincing. God is doing His job. Are you?
 
B-A-C quoted - " The choice for Jesus to be Lord has to happen in this life "

How do the people now and in the past - billions - who have never heard of or exposed to our Lord Jesus get their first chance at salvation in this life?

The word of God teaches us that those who have never heard from ages past he will judge according to the revelation they have been given.

Also the Bible tells us nobody has or will be going to heaven John 3:13

That is a false belief and taken from a verse out of context.

John 3:12-13
But if you don’t believe me when I tell you about earthly things, how can you possibly believe if I tell you about heavenly things? 13 No one has ever gone to heaven and returned. But the Son of Man has come down from heaven.

In other words only Jesus could speak of heavenly things because he came from heaven.

Right now all believers who have died from the beginning of time are in heaven.

Revelation 20 shows a judgment of everyone else who ever lived risen from the dead after the 1,000 yrs millennial reign of Jesus on earth and this takes place here on earth known as the Great White Throne Judgment. Judgment happens after they have been taught from the Bible the truth and the way and their fate is decided then.
How could Jesus otherwise judge them if they never experienced His teachings and commandments in their lifetime?

Revelation 20 is talking about the dad outside of Christ, and it doesn't say where the GWT Judgment will take place. These people will not have to be taught truth, because they will know it...but they have rejected it. Their fate is already pre-determined by virtue of the fact that they have been in Hades all this time, not to mention that their names are not written in the Book of Life. Those whose name will be written in the Book of Life will be those who have come out of the Millennium, both alive and dead who will have accepted King Jesus as Lord and Saviour during His Millennial reign.
 
God is not trying to save or convert the world now.
And God did not send His Son, Jesus, to save mankind during His time.

For God so loved the world, that He gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
For God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through Him might be saved
John 3:16-17


For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Much more then, being now justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.
For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of His Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
Romans 5:6-11

 
Should I take that literally? o_O
If you don't take the Bible literally then do you consider the Bible to be literally the Word of God? [You don't have to answer,rethorical - but I appreciate the honesty of your response

Ummmm, 'WaterRock' ... perhaps you shouldn't have read my Comment so 'literally' ... :)
What I was meaning to say was that there are several instances throughout the Scriptures which, if read and accepted literally, risks one to invite much confusion.
'WhiteRock', I'm assuming that you are familiar with and are open to use the keys of the heavenly Kingdom. There is no ceiling for the way of thinking of those who accept the principle of Jesus' teaching about the Kingdom of heaven. Through the renewal of the mind, man ascends and moves into the spiritual reality. He learns to understand the unseen things by means of parables and images from the visible world. God's laws and purposes for the unseen world can be understood by means of the natural creation.
The Bible says about Jesus: "The last Adam became a life-giving spirit" (1Cor 15:45). His sermons called man's spirit to move into the Kingdom of heaven. Therefore the doctrine of Jesus produces spiritual people. Those who reject this basic principle and accept the fundamentalist or literal interpretation of the scribes and lawyers, will eventually have a religion limited to the visible world, just as they unfortunately had. In this way, it becomes true that in our day there are many who dwell in the Orthodox quarter of Greater Babylon which has ample room for all who are unable to let go of the earth in their service of God. God, however, seeks worshippers in spirit and in truth!
Many Christians are so completely wrapped up in natural religion that they finally lose all forms of spiritual thinking, About those who do not grow up in the spiritual world but keep occupying their minds with natural things the bible says: "know your works; you have the name of being alive, and you are dead. Awake, and strengthen what remains and is on the point of death" (Rev 3:1-2).
Many Christians of our days insist on adhering to the rule: 'Read what it says'. They have the shallow idea that Bible exegesis means that the words of Scripture are to be taken literally; without spiritualizing or allegorizing them.
The opposite of literal is metaphorical. Literal may refer to spiritual as well as to natural matters. For instance, we may say that the congregation is the body of Christ. The word body is used metaphorically, to express the mutual relationship of the members. The 'body' is literal in the natural world, but no less literal and real in the spiritual world. New Jerusalem is a metaphor, a word used in the figurative sense; yet it indicates the spiritual people of God which exists quite concretely.
The Scribes were well-versed in the law and the prophets. Yet, they were unspiritual people, who therefore didn't understand the words of Jesus. They took His words literally and consigned them to the natural world only. They were unable to transpose Jesus' words to the unseen world because they were spiritually blind and deaf. There was a "veil over their minds", that is, over their inner beings, (2Cor 3:15).

Let me give a few examples:
In John 2:18 and 19 the Lord said to the Jews who demanded that a sign be shown to them: "Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up". The Jews were unable to transpose these words in their hearts, that is, to understand them in their spiritual reality. For them a temple was a building of stone and timber. That is why their reaction showed amazement and annoyance: "It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will you raise it up in three days?" They were unable to understand that man is the real temple of God and that the temple at Jerusalem was no more than a shadow of the spiritual reality.
Later, when Stephen pointed out to them the difference between shadow (the literal thing in the natural world) and reality (the literal matter in the spiritual world), he said: "Yet the Most High does not dwell in houses made with hands", and the apostle Paul added: "Do you not know that you are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in you?" (Acts 7:48 and 1 1Cor 3:16). Yet even now there are many who interpret 2Thessalonians 2:3 in such a way that the man of lawlessness is supposed to sit in an earthly temple. Also in the case of Revelation 11:1, where John is told to measure the temple of God, many bible teachers adopt a position similar to that of the Jews in Jesus' days. Yet, because of the coming of the Lord and the developments following this event, they feel the need to reduce the forty-six years it took the Jews to reconstruct the temple to a mere three and a half!
In John 6:3 0 the Jews asked: "Then what sign do you do, that we may see, and believe you". They expected Him to show them 'a sign from heaven', as is evident from the question in Matthew 16:1. As a matter of fact, Jesus had done many miracles and signs, based upon the power He had in heaven, the unseen world. He had cast out demons, set free the possessed, healed the sick. Day after day He preached the gospel of the Kingdom of heaven in all the towns and villages. But for the orthodox leaders the spiritual world remained a closed book. They neither entered themselves, nor allowed others to enter. They did not know the heaven of Genesis 1. 1 but only the firmament which God 'called Heaven', the place where the sun, the moon and the stars revolve. That is why their question was followed by this remark: "Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, "He gave them bread from heaven to eat". This shows that they only accepted miracles which took place in the earthly atmosphere. But Jesus replied: "Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness and they died. This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that a man may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven!" (John 6:4 9-51).
At such a show of blindness and hardness of heart in the religious leaders who asked for a sign from heaven, Jesus understandably, "sighed deeply in his spirit", (Mark 8:11 and 12). In their literal understanding of the words of our Lord they put themselves at a level with the woman at the well, who replied when Jesus offered her the living water: "Sir, you have nothing to draw with, and the well is deep" (John 4:10-11).
Nicodemus also reacted in this manner. During the discussion about the new birth he asked: "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?" (John 3:4).
The same unspiritual attitude is adopted by the fundamentalist bible teachers of our days who talk about signs of the endtime such as earthquakes, landslides, floods, volcanic eruptions, falling stars, eclipses of sun and moon, wars and famines, every one of them an event in the natural world. To them apply the cutting words of the Lord: "You hypocrites! You know how to interpret the appearance of earth and sky; but why do you not know how to interpret the present time?" (Luke 12:56). They call themselves bible-oriented Christians, but limit God Is word to the earth, while Jesus only used symbols which were to be fulfilled literally in the spiritual reality. They refuse to enter the unseen world and by their hypocritical attitude mislead others and keep them from entering. They do not see that in these last days the spiritual world is in turmoil, that after twenty centuries of Christianity the struggle in the heavenly places has started anew.
The signs of the endtime, the signs of the latter days, can only be recognized by those who walk in the heavenly places, who have insight into the unseen world, who know by the word of prophecy that a new war has broken out in heaven, (Rev 12:7). when the gospel of Jesus Christ is preached and the struggle with the powers of darkness taken on, the demons will naturally react violently. They will fall from heaven like fire, like a bolt of lightning, to concentrate on their strongholds which threaten to fall. That is why Jesus said He had come to throw fire on the earth. This will happen again when the sons of God are manifested and start to attack the enemy. Just as in Jesus' days, Satan and his angels will be thrown onto the earth (Luke 12:49; 10:18 and Rev 12:9).
When asked whether they had understood the parables, the disciples replied with a frank 'Yes'. Most probably the evangelists have not recorded all the words Jesus spoke to his disciples in explaining the parables. In Mark 4:34 we read: "Privately to his own disciples he explained everything". John was afraid, if everything had been written down, the world might not be able to contain the books. No doubt the Lord had to explain more than once to his disciples his method of instruction about the unseen world. The disciples must have found it difficult to break away from the traditional approach. I can understand their position, for on the strength of our education we, too, were inclined to take the Master's words literally in the natural world.
The difficulty the disciples had showed in their reaction to the parable of the leaven. Jesus warned them about the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees, and the disciples thought He did not want them to eat the bread of these people.
Another misunderstanding arose during the discussion at the last supper. Jesus advised his pupils to arm themselves with a sword. Immediately they produced two swords as proof that in case of trouble they would be able to use them. It is understandable that after more than three years of instruction Jesus said to his disciples half ironically: "It is enough", (Luke 22:38). As if the Master would ever permit them to fight a battle other than the battle in the heavenly places with the sword of the Spirit, that is the Word of God. Yet even now, while people know quite well that the warfare is a spiritual one, the pressure of the demons often makes them refer back to natural means of defense.
The disciples had understood the parables of the Kingdom of heaven. When they wrote their epistles, Peter and John no doubt remembered the Master Is explanations. Having in mind the good seed of the Word of God, Peter wrote: "You have been born anew, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God". When he wrote: "You know that you were ransomed ..... not with perishable things such as silver or gold, but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot", he must have thought of the parable of the treasure in the field. The separation of weeds and wheat, in which the weeds end up in the fiery furnace, shows in these words: "Then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trial, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment". Where the Lord said: a man bought a field, John wrote afterwards: "He is the expiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world" (1Peter 1:23; 18 and 19; 2Peter 2:9 and 1John 2:2).

The disciples had accepted Jesus' ways of thinking as He taught it in the parables. In their own words they offered it to the people whom they told of the gospel of the Kingdom. They did so in a reliable manner and we, too, should want to understand both the inspired Scriptures and Jesus' parables in this same way.
 
15:20-21
What I was meaning to say was that there are several instances throughout the Scriptures which, if read and accepted literally, risks one to invite much confusion.
That is understood, such as the Matthew 1:18, since a man and his wife shall be one flesh. Yet being one flesh is literally spiritual. While it is know since the beginning that the male and female brings forth the flesh. In such, as the male and female become one, the Spirit and the Word too are one as written in 1 John 5:7, who is the Holy Ghost. But then again it should be obvious that just as it requires a male and female to procreate the flesh that it takes the Spirit and the Word to procreate the soul.
Hence, it is written that Jesus knew from the beginning who believe and who would believe not, and in such everything in the NT was written to teach and edify the OT. Thus the Gods (Spirit and Word) who said "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness." in Genesis 1 becoming espoused so to speak as the LORD God in Genesis 2, and finally coming together in Genesis 4:1, wherein it is written, "And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD."







 
That is the reason God created us.

Isaiah 43:7 - [Even] every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him.
Revelation 4:11 - Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
Isaiah 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I [am] the LORD; and [there is] none else.

This will happen again when the sons of God are manifested and start to attack the enemy.

Scripture where Sons of God are to attack the enemy please.

The same unspiritual attitude is adopted by the fundamentalist bible teachers of our days who talk about signs of the endtime such as earthquakes, landslides, floods, volcanic eruptions, falling stars, eclipses of sun and moon, wars and famines, every one of them an event in the natural world. To them apply the cutting words of the Lord: "You hypocrites! You know how to interpret the appearance of earth and sky; but why do you not know how to interpret the present time?"

Please include perspective. The very same discussion of "signs" were also given to His disciples minus the Pharisees & Saducees.
Meaning giving them to much importance or none at all could be equally problematic.

I would also agree if the main and only focus were to eschatology alone by said "fundamentalist bible teachers". Yet I haven't been to many services or schools for that matter that the subject matter doesn't eventually move to other areas of scripture. That is why greater context is so important. We could study the entirety of the bible and still not comprehend it all.

I also believe that Individual speakers who studies focus solely on one subject at the sacrifice of all other. Are bound to fall short in the greater context of scripture.

I find the problem with our obedience being both temporal & spiritual is that we lean too far one way or the other, and then become unbalanced.

No doubt the Lord had to explain more than once to his disciples his method of instruction about the unseen world.

Conjecture, which leads....................

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I have been enjoying reading your postings brother. However, I do have one question which oddly enough a couple of weeks ago I asked for greater information on from my Pastor.

Do you believe in the "Kingdom Now" or a similar theology?

C4E
<><
 
In John 2:18 and 19 the Lord said to the Jews who demanded that a sign be shown to them: "Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up". The Jews were unable to transpose these words in their hearts, that is, to understand them in their spiritual reality.

Now in Luke 21:5-6, was the temple spiritual or literal?
 
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I have been enjoying reading your postings brother. However, I do have one question which oddly enough a couple of weeks ago I asked for greater information on from my Pastor.
Do you believe in the "Kingdom Now" or a similar theology?
C4E
<><
I honestly have no idea what label people might be using to categorize my understanding of the Bible ... nor, frankly, do I care.
I'm not a theologian. I don't pretend to be anything of a Bible scholar. I'm jus' a plain ordinary child of God enjoying an extraordinary experience.
I simply awaken in the morning and go along my happy way with thoughts concerning the abundance of God's mercy, loving kindness and the "rich inheritance of the saints".
 
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