Becoming Sinless.
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amadeus2
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Presently we are all of us, who have not yet overcome as Jesus overcame, stewards of all that God has provided for us. If and when we actually become "joint-heirs with Christ" [from Rom 8:17], then will be in line to inherit. When we have inherited then we will be owners. There are many promises cited in scripture. Do any of them speak of us having our own righteousness by our own spirit? If so then perhaps it could happen but is it necessary for to be one with Him?
Read John 17 where Jesus is praying to his Father. There you may be given a more precise answer, but that is between God and you, isn't it?
Read John 17 where Jesus is praying to his Father. There you may be given a more precise answer, but that is between God and you, isn't it?
RJ
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Sure, after we die, God sees Jesus in us and he glorifies and perfects us.
1 Corinthians 13: 9-12
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
If you are perfected, you are finally righteous on your own account.
Curtis
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If we are saved by "grace", which is God's willingness to do something for someone who does not deserve it, then if this grace continues through out all eternity, then we will always be subject to God's mercy, and grace.
Our "righteousness" only comes from Jesus Christ, and not from any of our own doing. We will never be able to stand in the presence of God on our own without the blood, and righteousness that comes from Christ.
This was the only way a imperfect being (us) can dwell within a perfect God. Grace will always be extended to the Church through out all eternity.
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—
Eph 2:6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
It will only be by God's "grace" in his kindness will we be shown everything the Lord has prepared for his Church.
Our "righteousness" only comes from Jesus Christ, and not from any of our own doing. We will never be able to stand in the presence of God on our own without the blood, and righteousness that comes from Christ.
This was the only way a imperfect being (us) can dwell within a perfect God. Grace will always be extended to the Church through out all eternity.
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—
Eph 2:6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
It will only be by God's "grace" in his kindness will we be shown everything the Lord has prepared for his Church.
RJ
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I know what you are saying and have no disagreement.We are now all in and will always be in Christ. The since that Christ is in God, we are in God.But, in eternity we will be perfected and fully in God , we will know him fully, as he knows us. Actually, if you really get down to it, in eternity there will be no talk of righteousness, blamelessness, holiness, we just are and we will all be all of that fully for all eternity. In 1 Cor 13, it talks about, now, what is left is faith, hope and love and of these love is the greatest. The reason love is the greatest, because it is the only one of the three that is eternal. There is no future in an eternal faith and hope because they are complete and no reason for either one; all that will remain is love.
RJ
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That is now, yes, but I am not quite sure that this is the same in eternity.
Actually, it begins with the righteousness of God. When we are in eternity, we will be fully and perfectly clothed in God, I don't see any further talk of righteousness...we just are!
Travis
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9 So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God, 10 for whoever has entered God's rest has also rested from his works as God did from his. 11 Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, so that no one may fall by the same sort of disobedience. Hebrews 4:9-11
It's hard to earn one's righteousness when one is busy resting. If you know what I mean :thumbsup:
Working on the Sabbath is a big no no:
32 While the people of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering sticks on the Sabbath day. 33 And those who found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses and Aaron and to all the congregation. 34 They put him in custody, because it had not been made clear what should be done to him. 35 And the LORD said to Moses, "The man shall be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp." 36 And all the congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him to death with stones, as the LORD commanded Moses. Numbers 15:32-36
Man, I bet Atheists have a real hay day with that one....
Blessings!
Travis
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Yes , I agree; what saved person can argue with God's word. What you say, for us (believers), started the moment we were saved, in the here and now for us, but as Hebrews 4 mentions, this is eternal and started with our rest by God before the foundation of the world. Entering God's rest is now and eternal at the same time. Actually, Curtis stared the thread, asking, more or less, where does your righteousness come from in eternity. From that question, I would always give God all the credit and nothing by us. I guess my point is, once eternal with God, we will be finally and completely perfect and perfect is perfect. I have no way of being 100 % sure about eternity, but I would venture to say that we all will be fully righteous and therefore, I doubt if the word even exists in heaven.
Thiscrosshurts
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We are in eternity now because eternity is not "from now on" or from then on.
It always was,always will be,it has no beginning and no end.
There can be no change in eternity because it's everything all the time because if there is no beginning or end there is no difference.
You can't have time and space without difference.
Without difference there can be no measurement.
You can't go to,or leave eternity
If you made it to eternity it's only because you came from there.
John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
What righteousness will we have?
We will have the righteousness we had with him before the foundation of the world.
If I seem imperfect then you are judging after the flesh.
I have to decide if I am from above or below.
I must choose who"I am".
The one from above cannot change or sin.
Am I the flesh or is the flesh just a vessel for the eternal to display its creativity
which is so awesome it needs to be sort of smeared out in time and space to be appreciated.
Maybe time and space is a really clever way to locate/store or file the eternal concepts of wisdom and things like glory and honor and love.
Father,mother,son are temporary things that are eternal concepts.
Maybe this life is just a trip to the zoo.
It always was,always will be,it has no beginning and no end.
There can be no change in eternity because it's everything all the time because if there is no beginning or end there is no difference.
You can't have time and space without difference.
Without difference there can be no measurement.
You can't go to,or leave eternity
If you made it to eternity it's only because you came from there.
John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
What righteousness will we have?
We will have the righteousness we had with him before the foundation of the world.
If I seem imperfect then you are judging after the flesh.
I have to decide if I am from above or below.
I must choose who"I am".
The one from above cannot change or sin.
Am I the flesh or is the flesh just a vessel for the eternal to display its creativity
which is so awesome it needs to be sort of smeared out in time and space to be appreciated.
Maybe time and space is a really clever way to locate/store or file the eternal concepts of wisdom and things like glory and honor and love.
Father,mother,son are temporary things that are eternal concepts.
Maybe this life is just a trip to the zoo.
Bendito
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We can be sinless now.
1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
We are the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus
2 Corinthians 5:20-21King James Version (KJV)
20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
Read Romans chapter 6
6 So then, are we to say, “Let’s keep on sinning, so that there can be more grace”? 2 Heaven forbid! How can we, who have died to sin, still live in it?3 Don’t you know that those of us who have been immersed into the Messiah Yeshua have been immersed into his death? 4 Through immersion into his death we were buried with him; so that just as, through the glory of the Father, the Messiah was raised from the dead, likewise we too might live a new life. 5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will also be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 We know that our old self was put to death on the execution-stake with him, so that the entire body of our sinful propensities might be destroyed, and we might no longer be enslaved to sin. 7 For someone who has died has been cleared from sin. 8 Now since we died with the Messiah, we trust that we will also live with him. 9 We know that the Messiah has been raised from the dead, never to die again; death has no authority over him.10 For his death was a unique event that need not be repeated; but his life, he keeps on living for God. 11 In the same way, consider yourselves to be dead to sin but alive for God, by your union with the Messiah Yeshua.
12 Therefore, do not let sin rule in your mortal bodies, so that it makes you obey its desires; 13 and do not offer any part of yourselves to sin as an instrument for wickedness. On the contrary, offer yourselves to God as people alive from the dead, and your various parts to God as instruments for righteousness. 14 For sin will not have authority over you; because you are not under legalism but under grace.
15 Therefore, what conclusion should we reach? “Let’s go on sinning, because we’re not under legalism but under grace”? Heaven forbid! 16 Don’t you know that if you present yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, then, of the one whom you are obeying, you are slaves — whether of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to being made righteous? 17 By God’s grace, you, who were once slaves to sin, obeyed from your heart the pattern of teaching to which you were exposed; 18 and after you had been set free from sin, you became enslaved to righteousness. 19 (I am using popular language because your human nature is so weak.) For just as you used to offer your various parts as slaves to impurity and lawlessness, which led to more lawlessness; so now offer your various parts as slaves to righteousness, which leads to being made holy, set apart for God. 20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in relationship to righteousness; 21 but what benefit did you derive from the things of which you are now ashamed? The end result of those things was death.22 However, now, freed from sin and enslaved to God, you do get the benefit — it consists in being made holy, set apart for God, and its end result is eternal life. 23 For what one earns from sin is death; but eternal life is what one receives as a free gift from God, in union with the Messiah Yeshua, our Lord.
Grace is "Gods empowering PRESENCE which empowers us to do that which He wants us to do" Grace is not "God's willingness to do something for someone who does not deserve it" This is the definition of Mercy. As in By Grace are we saved......because of Gods mercy
Someone said on one post; We are now all in and will always be in Christ ....Ok How can we say that if we don't know the meaning of the word Christ? Christ is not Jesus' last name. It means "The anointed One and His anointing". Now guess what?! We are coheirs with Jesus. Everything God has given to Jesus He has given to us. That, then, makes us anointed too. What are we anointed to do then?
John 14:12King James Version (KJV)
12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
This is where Jesus authorized us to do all that He did and more.
With God's Word in our very hands and eyes, how could we ever say that we are sinners? That someday we can be sinless but not now?
The original question was "Will there ever come a time in eternity where we will be able to stand in the presence of God in our own righteousness?" My answer is 'The righteousness of God is mine. It was given to me by Jesus Himself. As long as I walk in the anointing that Jesus is anointed with, the same anointing that He anointed me with, the answer is yes. Here on Earth it's more difficult to walk in the anointing 100% of the time. When we are with Him in heaven....Different story.
I realize that some will have a problem with me saying that it's my righteousness...It's what I am though. I AM the righteousness of God....in the anointed one and His anointing. Jesus became sin so that I can be the righteousness of God in His anointing.
We are joint heirs now;
Romans 8:16-18King James Version (KJV)
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
Everything Jesus has belongs to us too. We are co heirs. Means;
coheir
/kəʊˈɛə/
noun
1.
a person who inherits jointly with others
B-A-C
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We have to righteousness to speak of. Our righteousness is as filthy rags.
However, we will be held accountable for many things. People we didn't warn. People we didn't witness to. Every idle word we speak.
People have different ideas about this... but personally believe we will see what Jesus did for us.
One day we will stand before the throne and the "accuser of the brethren" will point out every sin we ever did to the judge.
On the same day the "advocate/redeemer/savior" will say forgiven, forgiven, forgiven. at the end of that day... we will know what
Jesus saved us from, and how many sins He paid for.
But this is only for those who repent of sin. I don't believe we will ever conquer the sinful nature this side of heaven.
Unfortunately there are some people who say since we can't be 100% sinless anyway, what difference does it make.
Let's just do what we want to do and Jesus has us covered. (another doctrine of demons).
The Bible warns about those who go on sinning "willfully" and those who turn the grace of Christ into a license of sin, it says they are
storing up the wrath of God for themselves.
God isn't looking for perfect people (only Jesus was perfect) but He is looking for people who are trying to obey Him.
People who love Him with their heart, soul, mind and strength.
Righteousness is only half of the equation. Those who continually practice unrighteousness will pay the price for their choices.
However, we will be held accountable for many things. People we didn't warn. People we didn't witness to. Every idle word we speak.
People have different ideas about this... but personally believe we will see what Jesus did for us.
One day we will stand before the throne and the "accuser of the brethren" will point out every sin we ever did to the judge.
On the same day the "advocate/redeemer/savior" will say forgiven, forgiven, forgiven. at the end of that day... we will know what
Jesus saved us from, and how many sins He paid for.
But this is only for those who repent of sin. I don't believe we will ever conquer the sinful nature this side of heaven.
Unfortunately there are some people who say since we can't be 100% sinless anyway, what difference does it make.
Let's just do what we want to do and Jesus has us covered. (another doctrine of demons).
The Bible warns about those who go on sinning "willfully" and those who turn the grace of Christ into a license of sin, it says they are
storing up the wrath of God for themselves.
God isn't looking for perfect people (only Jesus was perfect) but He is looking for people who are trying to obey Him.
People who love Him with their heart, soul, mind and strength.
Righteousness is only half of the equation. Those who continually practice unrighteousness will pay the price for their choices.
Bendito
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Our own righteousness is as filthy rags is correct. That's why Jesus became sin for us...so we could become
As you say...We have no righteousness of our own. But we have been made the righteousness of God in Christ. Past tense.
2 Corinthians 5:21King James Version (KJV)
21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
This righteousness of God is imputed continually as we walk in faith in Jesus. Present and future tense.
Romans 3:22King James Version (KJV)
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Romans 1:16-17 (CJB)
16 For I am not ashamed of the Good News, since it is God’s powerful means of bringing salvation to everyone who keeps on trusting, to the Jew especially, but equally to the Gentile. 17 For in it is revealed how God makes people righteous in his sight; and from beginning to end it is through trust — as the Tanakh puts it, “But the person who is righteous will live his life by trust.”a]'>[a] Present tense
So why can't we know today just what we are saved from? Its in the Word. Sin and all the effects of it. Sickness, addictions, bondage of all sorts. And of course he delivered us from end time judgment. You can read it all, its there.
My friend, you may have a sinful nature but I don't. I am born again. All that I was before died. I was raised up a brand new creation. The Holy Spirit lives in me now. Inseparable! Kind of makes me a hybrid LOL I am given the nature of God (as are you) I am now dead to sin, having died, and I'm alive to God.
Romans 6:2
God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Romans 6:11
Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Ephesians 2:5
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
Colossians 2:13
And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
1 Peter 2:24
Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
Dead to sin means we are no longer bound to it. We do not have to sin.
I agree that our own righteousness is as filthy rags. Its worthless..That's why Jesus became sin for us...So that we could be made the righteousness of God.
2 Corinthians 5:21 (KJV)
21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
And we are the righteousness of God in Christ (Present tense)
Romans 1:16-20 (KJV)
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Romans 3:21-23 (CJB)
21 But now, quite apart from Torah, God’s way of making people righteous in his sight has been made clear — although the Torah and the Prophets give their witness to it as well — 22 and it is a righteousness that comes from God, through the faithfulness of Yeshua the Messiah, to all who continue trusting. For it makes no difference whether one is a Jew or a Gentile, 23 since all have sinned and come short of earning God’s praise.
B.A.C You said “But this is only for those who repent of sin. I don't believe we will ever conquer the sinful nature this side of heaven.” The fact remains that we don’t have to conquer the old sinful nature. Jesus already did that.
When we were born again we died. The old things passed away. Everything was born anew.
Romans 6:2
God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Romans 6:11
Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Ephesians 2:5
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
Colossians 2:13
And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
1 Peter 2:24
Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
We are dead to sin. Sin has NO power over us at all!
We were born brand new creations. We have the Holy Spirit living in us. Totally inseparable from us. It makes us a new creation. Something that never existed before. Part man and part God. Two people in one body.
2 Corinthians 5:16-19 (CJB)
16 So from now on, we do not look at anyone from a worldly viewpoint. Even if we once regarded the Messiah from a worldly viewpoint, we do so no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is united with the Messiah, he is a new creation — the old has passed; look, what has come is fresh and new! 18 And it is all from God, who through the Messiah has reconciled us to himself and has given us the work of that reconciliation, 19 which is that God in the Messiah was reconciling mankind to himself, not counting their sins against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.
So…If we died and were born again in the anointing (Christ) we do not have the old sinful nature. With the Holy Spirit as part of us, and us part of Him we have the nature of God. Now its up to us to develop it.
God is LOVE and LOVE resides in us as a part of us. How can we possibly have a sinful nature with the Holy Spirit living in us? Sin has no place in the presence of God
And again, my friend, How can I be a sinner with a sinful nature and be the righteousness of God? I can only be one or the other. The bible is the standard. It says we ARE the righteousness of God NOW
Curtis
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Brother, the question was will we ever be able to stand in our own righteousness. We have no righteousness of our own self as Jesus was made to be our righteousness Which means we will forever need God's "grace" through out all eternity. Jesus Christ becoming our righteousness was the only way a imperfect being live and dwell within a perfect being
1Co 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
Bendito
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I think I said above, Curtis, that its not our righteousness, but we are made the righteousness of God. We are HIS righteousness..
So....You can be a sinner, or you can be the righteousness of God..Which one do you choose? You cannot be both.
Curtis
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Brother how are we going to reconcile this scripture?
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
Certainly God does not want us to sin, but even being the righteousness of God in Christ we still do sin on occasions.
Bendito
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Is it so difficult? Who was the man speaking to? Gentiles/ unsaved people. Look.
1 John 1 (CJB)
1 The Word, which gives life!
He existed from the beginning.
We have heard him,
we have seen him with our eyes,
we have contemplated him,
we have touched him with our hands!
2 The life appeared,
and we have seen it.
We are testifying to it
and announcing it to you —
eternal life!
He was with the Father,
and he appeared to us.
3 What we have seen and heard,
we are proclaiming to you;
so that you too
may have fellowship with us.
Our fellowship is with the Father
and with his Son, Yeshua the Messiah.
4 We are writing these things
so that our joy may be complete.
5 And this is the message which we have heard from him and proclaim to you: God is light, and there is no darkness in him — none!
6 If we claim to have fellowship with him while we are walking in the darkness, we are lying and not living out the truth. 7 But if we are walking in the light, as he is in the light, then we have fellowship with each other, and the blood of his Son Yeshua purifies us from all sin.
8 If we claim not to have sin, we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we acknowledge our sins, then, since he is trustworthy and just, he will forgive them and purify us from all wrongdoing.
10 If we claim we have not been sinning, we are making him out to be a liar, and his Word is not in us.
He was not talking to Christians
Travis
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Ezekiel 14:14-20
14 even if these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they would deliver but their own lives by their righteousness, declares the Lord GOD. 15 "If I cause wild beasts to pass through the land, and they ravage it, and it be made desolate, so that no one may pass through because of the beasts, 16 even if these three men were in it, as I live, declares the Lord GOD, they would deliver neither sons nor daughters. They alone would be delivered, but the land would be desolate. 17 "Or if I bring a sword upon that land and say, Let a sword pass through the land, and I cut off from it man and beast, 18 though these three men were in it, as I live, declares the Lord GOD, they would deliver neither sons nor daughters, but they alone would be delivered. 19 "Or if I send a pestilence into that land and pour out my wrath upon it with blood, to cut off from it man and beast, 20 even if Noah, Daniel, and Job were in it, as I live, declares the Lord GOD, they would deliver neither son nor daughter. They would deliver but their own lives by their righteousness.
Curtis
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Are you trying to say Christians never sin? Yes they do. What happens when we do sin? We confess our sins. Why? So God will forgive us and then "cleanse" us from all unrighteousness.
Can you walk in the light with out ever "staggering"? What happens when you stumble and fall, what is that called? Sin. We are not sinless, but Christ in us is!
Travis
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1st John was most definitely written to believers. That's quite odd that you would say it is not.
