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B.C. Johnson: Why does God allow suffering?

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I don't know if anyone here is familiar with the B.C. Johnson philosophy. We were discussing it in my philosophy class today and it brought up an interesting topic. Its basically the battle between good and evil, and Johnson presents the common argument, if God is all-powerful, all-loving, and all-knowing, why is there evil?

Johnson uses an interesting example:
"A house catches fire and a six month old baby is painfully burned to death. Could we possibly describe as "good" any person that had the power to save this child and yet refused to do so? God undoubtedly has this power and in many cases of this sort he has refused to help. Can we call God "good"? Are there adequate excuses for this behavior?"
I have developed my own critic of this argument and I think I have enough info about God to respond, but I was wondering what everyone else thought. Esp. those with a more mature relationship and understanding of God........ How would you respond to this?
 
Active

RJ

I don't know if anyone here is familiar with the B.C. Johnson philosophy. We were discussing it in my philosophy class today and it brought up an interesting topic. Its basically the battle between good and evil, and Johnson presents the common argument, if God is all-powerful, all-loving, and all-knowing, why is there evil?

Johnson uses an interesting example:
"A house catches fire and a six month old baby is painfully burned to death. Could we possibly describe as "good" any person that had the power to save this child and yet refused to do so? God undoubtedly has this power and in many cases of this sort he has refused to help. Can we call God "good"? Are there adequate excuses for this behavior?"
I have developed my own critic of this argument and I think I have enough info about God to respond, but I was wondering what everyone else thought. Esp. those with a more mature relationship and understanding of God........ How would you respond to this?

The example of the baby dying needlessly is a great example of one of the sins that separates from God and that is doubt. Now I say that simply because God is incapable of doubt. Doubt is a negative and there is no such thing as negative in God's perfect being.

God in his infinite perfection at all levels is complete; so complete is his perfection that we can't possibly understand it at this point. Look towards the end of 1 COR 13 and see what St. Paul says about our knowing or understanding, it is imperfect.

Most humans, Christians or who ever, are pained about the injustices that happen to others in our world, so much so, that we ask how can this happen from a loving God?

I have an explanation why these things happen and why God does not often step in during these situations. Now I have no direct scriptures that support this definitively, but a confidence from reading and knowing God's word as a whole.

Our physical world, this human plane that we currently exist in has nothing to do with the "other realm" where God and others are, except that God created it. And in this creation of his, are natural laws that exist. With airplanes, it is not so much that engine stopped, it is that there was a violation of the law of gravity.

Often what confuses us is that we know that God does intervene, there are many stories in the Bible that support this, but all can be attributed to his greater purpose.

Although it is a very wonderful and beautiful, this is a hazardous and imperfect world we live in, we are subject to all it's natural laws, and I don't believe that God is some grand puppeteer in the sky; we happen to live in this world and subject to it's flaws.

But, I do know this with all my heart. God will look at every difficulty in our lives and see how we react. We can doubt and will. Jesus said that we can blasphemy him and God but we can't blasphemy the Holy Spirit, meaning we can't commit apostasy, rejecting God's full grace and rejecting the saving power of the Holy Spirit.

Doubting can subject us to never gaining salvation or causing some saved individuals to live in error, untruth and without all of God's peace.

But, as Paul says: " there will be a day that our perfection will come, we will see God "face to face" and know fully and as fully as he knows us"....think about it!
 
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GOD has given mankind control of this planet! Man has rebelled and listens to satan and the demons with him!

All sickness and suffering comes because sin has defiled this planet 100%!
Nothing we see is good!

Gods upset with mankind . HE hates to see us suffer and sin .
Still HE allows it ! Because , of the greater gain! A holy family to share all eternity with , is HIS GAIN and ours!

2Co 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

There is a NEW REST! ! In it we feel no pain or suffering!
Heb 4:8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.

2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Because they are NEW!
 
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"...Can we call God "good"? Are there adequate excuses for this behavior?"

By using the word excuses instead of reasons, Mr. Johnson seems to be indicating that he has already passed judgement and found God guilty. Thus, his inquiry is not unbiased (though he may be trying to make it look that way) and his mind is already made up.

When discussing this with Christians, you might start with Is 55:8-9 and build from there. An excellent book that deals with this topic is God On Mute - Engaging the Silence of Unanswered Prayer by Pete Grieg.

SLE
 
Member
GOD is LOVE! Everything GOD ever did was out of LOVE!
Many may not understand the reasons GOD did as HE did!
But I know HIM as perfect LOVE!
GOD has feelings!
GOD wept!

Joh 11:35 Jesus wept.
HE wept ,because HE hates seeing us suffer!
 
Active

RJ

I had been a member of the same church for 30 yrs. before God changed my life for ever.

I look back and I reflect that I knew of God and I knew of Jesus then but, now I know God and I know Jesus. Even though I only know "in-part" as Paul says, I know enough to have lost any doubt that He is all powerful and all loving and, his purpose is absolute!

A scripture that is quoted often here at TJ is 1 COR 5:17, one of my favorites because I live it. After my previous 30 yrs. above, I had a change of heart, I received, what I know was the Holy Spirit; I was "Born Again".

And with this change of heart, I thank and praise God that, though I may get mad or ask why, I now know in my heart that:

I WILL NEVER BLAME HIM FOR ANYTHING, NO MATTER HOW BAD!
 
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Our physical world, this human plane that we currently exist in has nothing to do with the "other realm" where God and others are, except that God created it.

I believe that when Jesus was born, Heaven invaded earth and changed everything. Just as on D-Day in France during World War II a beachhead was established that signaled the beginning of the end for Hitler, so on that fateful day in Bethlehem, a beachhead was established that signaled the beginning of the end for the devil and his cohorts. God's kingdom and this human plane, from that day forward, are locked together for all eternity.

SLE
 
Active

RJ

I believe that when Jesus was born, Heaven invaded earth and changed everything. Just as on D-Day in France during World War II a beachhead was established that signaled the beginning of the end for Hitler, so on that fateful day in Bethlehem, a beachhead was established that signaled the beginning of the end for the devil and his cohorts. God's kingdom and this human plane, from that day forward, are locked together for all eternity.

SLE

2 Peter 3:13 (New International Version)
13But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness.
Revelation 21

The New Jerusalem

1Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.

1 Peter 2:11 (Amplified Bible)
11Beloved, I implore you as aliens and strangers and exiles [in this world] to abstain from the sensual urges (the evil desires, the passions of the flesh, your lower nature) that wage war against the soul.



We don't belong to or meant for this world, we are just Aliens passing through.

Yes Jesus is the conduit to God and the other realm but truly, the connection of the physical realm to the Spirit world began with the death and resurrection of our Lord!
 
Member
Why does God allow suffering?

I believe that our suffering as a human race is directly connected to the choices we have made. Sin is the reason why there is suffering.

I have spent time in my life wondering why I have had to suffer so much through my life, I even went as far to be angry with God. I have been through some pretty difficult things in my life, from sexual abuse as child, a teenage pregnancy and the death of my first child at 3 months old and other things including divorce and another child out of wedlock. I don't believe that God did any of these things or even allowed them, I believe that God brings us through these things and uses them to bring us to total dependence on him. If you look at all the tragedy in the world as God not loving us or caring, then you are pushing him away and not giving him a chance to to turn lives into something marvelous that will glorify him.

It has taken me along time to realize this and change my way of thinking about the things I have been through. I have put them in the past and I thank God for bringing me through these things and for his unending love and grace.
 
Active

RJ

I believe that our suffering as a human race is directly connected to the choices we have made.

I agree that most humans that complain to God about the bad things that happen to them, do it without any regard to the fact that it was a matter of a bad choice on their part and, that choice is a precept that was part of the foundation of the universe.

But, plenty of people suffer from the choice of other people and not of their own. Abused children are a good example; this is a horrible and detestable act but it is the result of the abuser's choice.

We live in an imperfect world and things can and will happen, bad choices a primary cause most of the time.

Thank you Tani for your witness. God is truly perfect love ("Agapi") and, there is absolutely no bad or negative in him.

Our hope lies in the fact that someday we will be perfected in God's site and all of this will make perfect sense. BTW, I also know in my heart, that on that day, you will see that lost child of yours again!

God bless your faith and God bless you!
 
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To clarify...I wasn't meaning individual choices of individual people, but choices as a whole starting with Adam and Eve's choice to disobey God. That is the reason we have suffering.
 
Active

RJ

To clarify...I wasn't meaning individual choices of individual people, but choices as a whole starting with Adam and Eve's choice to disobey God. That is the reason we have suffering.

O.K. . Well, they certainly did complicate things for us!

Ever more the reason to thank God for his infinite wisdom and perfect grace that he extends to all and, of course, more choice that takes on a whole new dimension !
 
Member
B.C. Johnson: Why does God allow suffering?

Our Father in heaven,
Hallowed be your name.
Your kingdom come.
Your will be done
On earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our debts,
As we forgive our debtors.
And do not lead us into temptation,
But deliver us from the evil one.
For Yours is the kingdom and the power and
the glory forever.
Amen.

GOD's will not be done
On earth, this is our suffering.
Amen.
 
Member
Hab 3:17 Although the fig tree shall not blossom, neither shall fruit be in the vines; the labour of the olive shall fail, and the fields shall yield no meat; the flock shall be cut off from the fold, and there shall be no herd in the stalls:
Hab 3:18 Yet I will rejoice in the LORD, I will joy in the God of my salvation.


Darkness or light; joy or sorrow we are to rejoice in our God and trust in Him at all times.
So why does God allow suffering? There seem to be many reasons.
God allows folks to choose, each person choices affect others and all these interact causing no end of sorrow. This can all be traced back to disobedience in the garden.
Then there is the cursed earth and all in it still suffering from the wages of sin awaiting the great day of redemption.
Then there is of course our walking in the footsteps of Christ who learned obedience through the things He suffered.
God also disciplines those who He loves and allows whatever is needed to bring us to a place of total dependence on Him. It is not His desire to punish but instead to guide us closer to His heart.
Lam 3:32 But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies.
Lam 3:33 For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve the children of men.
 
Member
Darkness or light; joy or sorrow we are to rejoice in our God and trust in Him at all times.

"Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more important than food, and the body more important than clothes?"
(Mt 6:25 NIV)

Many many people who've claimed to be followers of Jesus are walking away from Him in the midst of the current economic woe because the "Christianity" they bought into is what theologian Dallas Willard calls consumer Christianity - receiving forgiveness of sins and enjoying the services of the church, but never pursuing relationship with Christ and growing spiritually. They've built their houses on sand instead of on the Rock. (See Mt 7:26)

SLE
 
Member
Ok... I'm going to play devil's advocate here...

IF God is all-powerful, all-knowing, He knew that Adam and Eve would make a bad choice, so why didn't He use his power to create them to always choose good?

And why can't/doesn't He use his power to stop suffering...??
 
Member
Ok... I'm going to play devil's advocate here...

IF God is all-powerful, all-knowing, He knew that Adam and Eve would make a bad choice, so why didn't He use his power to create them to always choose good?

And why can't/doesn't He use his power to stop suffering...??

GOOD Q! THE A is GOD's will not be done
On earth, this is our suffering,but GOD's will be done on us(real believer). BTW,this is earth nor heaven.Amen. :secret:FOR THE WORLD
KJV John 17:14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Amen.
 
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Member
AudreyNicole,

God desires us to freely seek Him. For Him to do what you suggest would have robbed us of the joy we find in following Him by choice and Him of the joy of being our God.

SLE
 
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Member
AudreyNicole,

God desires us to freely seek Him. For Him to do what you suggest would have robbed us of the joy we find in following Him by choice and Him of the joy of being our God.

SLE

GOOD POINT:shade:,

P.S

WE ARE his power to stop ALL suffering ON earth! we should try to preach his word to everyone,no matter who they are.it's hard to do,but easy to say.YES!
 
Active

RJ

Ok... I'm going to play devil's advocate here...

IF God is all-powerful, all-knowing, He knew that Adam and Eve would make a bad choice, so why didn't He use his power to create them to always choose good?

And why can't/doesn't He use his power to stop suffering...??

That is a classic mistake in opinion, especially for those yet to believe.

First of all, "If God is all-powerful", is a failure to know the God of creation as absolute perfection; with out it nothing would exist!
My goodness, he spoke everything in to existence . Perhaps your not a believer yet.

God absolutely knew what Adam and Eve would do before they did. Don't try to explain this in human or physical world knowledge and terms. In the Spirit world, there is no time as we know it. God is the Alpha and the Omega, he can be at the beginning and end at the same time.

From the foundation of the world, God gave us free choice. If Adam and Eve continued to obey God, we could all be in the Garden of Eden still.

Suffering is a by product of an imperfect (or sinful) world. It is best to understand not that God causes suffering but, rather, how does it affect your relationship with him!

If you are steadfast, God promises an eternal existence in a state of perfection, it is called Heaven.
 
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