Join Us Today!

Join our non-denominational community with 10,000+ members and more than 50,000 monthly visitors today. Engage in bible discussions, studies, prayer support and friendly fellowship.


Discussion in 'Evidence & Prophecy' started by Chad, Aug 30, 2011.

Random Thread
  1. Atheism
    CARM - Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry

    Dealing with atheists is actually easy to do. They don't have any evidence for their atheism, and they can't logically prove there is no God. They can only attack the Bible and attack Christians' ideas of God. But, if you listen to them, you can soon find that their logic has many holes in it. It takes practice, but you can do it.

    The following statements are for copying and pasting into chat rooms. Use them to see how atheists react. Use them to learn how to respond better to atheists. Please understand that these are not "stoppers." But, they can be challenging to atheists. Also, see how long it takes before they become condescending. Do not return their condescension. Instead, ask them to give rational reasons for their positions. In the process of interacting with them, learn how to argue with them better.

    1. Ways to Attack Atheism
      1. By asking questions
        1. Atheism is an intellectual position. What reasons do you have for holding that position? Your reasons are based upon logic and/or evidence or lack of it. So, is there any reason/evidence for you holding your position that you defend?
        2. If you say that atheism needs no evidence or reason, then you are holding a position that has no evidence or rational basis? If so, then isn't that simply faith?
        3. If you say that atheism is supported by the lack of evidence for God, then it is only your opinion that there is no evidence. You cannot know all evidence for or against God, therefore you cannot say there is no evidence for God.
        4. If you say that atheism needs no evidence to support it because it is a position about the lack of something, then do you have other positions you hold based upon lack of say, screaming blue ants? Do you hold the position that they do not exist or that you lack belief in them, too?
      2. By using logic
        1. How do you account for the laws of logic in a universe without God? The laws of logic are conceptual by nature and absolute. Being absolute, they transcend space and time. They are not the properties of the physical universe (since they are conceptual) or of people (since people contradict each other, which would mean they weren't absolute). So, how do you account for them?
          1. This approach is a bit more complicated. If you use this one, first be familiar with The Christian Worldview, the Atheist Worldview, and Logic.
          2. First of all, when using logic, you should be familiar with basic laws of logic and logical fallacies. It is very useful to point out the various logical fallacies to atheists as they commit them. Therefore, please be familiar with Logical Fallacies or Fallacies in Argumentation.
          3. The laws of logic are conceptual by nature and are always true all the time everywhere. They are not physical properties. How do atheists account for them from an atheist perspective?
        2. Everything that was brought into existence was caused to exist. Can you have an infinite regression of causes? No, since to get to "now" you'd have to traverse an infinite past. It seems that there must be a single uncaused cause. Why can't that be God?
        3. Examples of logical absolutes:
          1. Examples of logical absolutes are: something cannot be itself and not itself at the same time (Law of non-contradiction). A thing is what it is (Law of identity). A statement is either true or false (Law of excluded middle). These are simple, absolute logical absolutes.
        4. If atheism is true: The universe has laws. These laws cannot be violated. Life is a product of these laws and can only exists in harmony with those laws and is governed by them. Therefore, human thought, feelings, etc., are programmed responses to stimuli and the atheist cannot legitimately claim to have meaning in life.
        5. Human constructs?
          1. If the laws of logic are human constructs then how can they be absolute since humans think differently and often contradictorily? If they are produced from human minds, and human minds are mutually contradictory, then how can the constructs be absolute? Therefore, the laws of logic are not human constructs.
      3. The Universe exists
        1. The universe exists. Is it eternal or did it have a beginning? It could not be eternal since that would mean that an infinite amount of time had to be crossed to get to the present. But, you cannot cross an infinite amount of time (otherwise it wouldn't be infinite). Therefore, the universe had a beginning. Something cannot bring itself into existence. Therefore, something brought it into existence.
        2. What brought the universe into existence? It would have to be greater than the universe and be a sufficient cause to it. The Bible promotes this sufficient cause as God. What does atheism offer instead of God? If nothing, then atheism is not able to account for our own existence.
        3. The universe cannot be infinitely old or all useable energy would have been lost already (entropy). This has not occurred. Therefore, the universe is not infinitely old.
        4. Uncaused Cause
          1. Objection: If something cannot bring itself into existence, then God cannot exist since something had to bring God into existence. Answer: Not so. You cannot have an infinite regression of causes lest an infinity be crossed (which cannot happen). Therefore, there must be a single uncaused, cause.
          2. All things that came into existence were caused to exist. You cannot have an infinite regression of causes (otherwise an infinity of time has been crossed which is impossible because an infinity cannot be crossed). Therefore, logically, there must be a single uncaused cause that did not come into existence.
    2. Responding to Atheist Statements about God
      1. "I lack belief in a God."
        1. If you say that atheism is simply lack of belief in a god, then my cat is an atheist the same as the tree outside and the sidewalk out front, since they also lack faith. Therefore, your definition is insufficient.
        2. Lacking belief is a non-statement because you have been exposed to the concept of God and have made a decision to accept or reject. Therefore, you either believe there is a God, or you do not, or you are agnostic. You cannot remain in a state of "lack of belief."
        3. If you lack belief in God, then why do you go around attacking the idea of God? If you also lack belief in invisible pink unicorns, why don't you go around attacking that idea?
      2. "I believe there is no God."
        1. On what basis do you believe there is no God?
      3. "I don't believe there is a God."
        1. Why don't you believe there is no God?
      4. "There is no God."
        1. You cannot logically state that there is no God because you cannot know all things so as to determine that there is no God.
      5. "There is no proof that God exists"
        1. To say "there is no proof for God's existence" is illogical because an atheist cannot know all things by which he could state that there is no proof. He can only say he has not yet seen a convincing proof; after all, there may be one he hasn't yet seen.
      6. "All of Science has never found any evidence for God."
        1. That is a subjective statement. There are many scientists who affirm evidence for God's existence through science.
        2. Your presupposition is that science has no evidence for God, but that is only an opinion.
        3. Science looks at natural phenomena through measuring, weighing, seeing, etc. God, by definition, is not limited to the universe. Therefore, it would not be expected that physical detection of God would be found.
      7. "What is God?" or "Define God."
        1. God is the only Supreme Being who is unchanging, eternal, holy, and Trinitarian in nature. He alone possesses the attributes of omniscience, omnipresence, and omnipotence. He alone brought the universe into existence by the exertion of His will.
      8. "Prove your God is real."
        1. I can no more prove to you that God is real than I can prove to you that I love my family. If you are convinced I don't love my family, no matter what I say or do will be dismissed by you as invalid. It is your presuppositions that are the problem, not whether or not God exists.
        2. I can no more prove to you that God is real than you can prove that the universe is all that exists. Your demand of proof precludes acknowledgement of many types of evidence because your presuppositions don't allow it.
        3. The universe exists. It is not infinitely old. If it were it would have run out of energy long ago. Therefore, it had a beginning. The universe did not bring itself into existence. Since it was brought into existence by something else, I assert that God is the one who created the universe.
          1. When the atheist complains, ask him to logically explain the existence of the universe. Point out that opinions and guesses don't count.
    3. Responding to Atheist Statements about the Bible
      1. "The Bible is full of contradictions."
        1. Saying the Bible is full of contradictions does not mean it is so. Can you provide a contradiction that we can examine in context? There are many websites that address alleged contradictions. Here is one: CARM - Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry.
    4. Responding to Atheist Statements about Evolution and Naturalism
      1. "Evolution is a fact."
        1. That depends on if it is micro or macro. Micro variations occur, but macro variations (speciation) have not been observed. The best we have are fossils and they have to be interpreted. Besides, there are plenty of gaps in the fossil record.
        2. Have you read any books that discuss the contrary evidence to evolution? If not, then how can you say you are educated enough to say it is a fact?
      2. "Naturalism is true; therefore, there is no need for God."
        1. Naturalism is the belief that all phenomena can be explained in terms of natural causes and laws. If all things were explainable through natural laws, it does not mean God does not exist since God is, by definition, outside of natural laws since He is the creator of them.
    5. Responding to Atheist Statements about Truth
      1. "There are no absolute truths."
        1. To say there are no absolute truths is an attempt to state an absolute truth. If your statement is true, then it is self-contradictory and not true, and you are wrong.
  2. Shall I post a response to these questions here? I tried to send you a PM asking about it but I think it was filtered.
  3. First, prove to me that you have 100% absolute infinite intellectual knowledge that GOD does not exist (including proof that extends beyond our universe, space and everything beyond). Once you can do that, feel free follow up with your responses to the above questions.
    OneGodBeliever likes this.
  4. I thought this was a pro Jesus site not a anti-Jesus site?
  5. It is a pro Jesus site. Isn't that clear enough? Being Christians, we know the member will not be able to provide proof that God does not exist. I gave him the burden to"prove" it before he answers the questions.

    Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk
  6. #6 Diplodocus, Sep 6, 2011
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2011
    impossible. Anyone who thinks they can do this is confused. Anyway seems you are not interested in answers to your questions so I wont bother you anymore.
  7. Good, atheists love it when you ask questions.

    You make a claim: God exists. Do you have evidence to support this claim? If not, then I do not accept it. I do not claim definitively that God does not exist, but I see no reason to assume that he does. If we're talking about an omnipotent, omnibenevolent God, then the fact that evil exists in the world can be used as evidence against it. However, atheism does not depend on evidence against the existence of God, just as not believing in invisible unicorns does not depend on evidence against invisible unicorns.

    The rules of logic are simply tautologies that we have given name to. They make sense in an "atheist world view" because there is, quite simply, no way in which they could be false. The only way it would make sense for you to bring this up against atheism would be if somehow God were the explanation for the existence of logic. But God himself is bound by the same rules. Could God create a rock so large that he himself cannot lift it?

    There are many theories of the origin of the universe, some requiring an infinite regress, some devolving into a situation in which the physical laws that we understand do not apply. Also, something can come from nothing; it happens all the time. Look up virtual particles. But to address the question I quoted: why can't that be some natural phenomenon? Why can't that be an invisible unicorn? You have presented evidence for either nothing or anything.

    The quick answer is: neither of us knows, but only you pretend to know. A somewhat more complex answer: The universe is approximately 14.5 billion years old. It is difficult to speak of what happened "before" the origin of the universe, because time did not come to exists until the universe did. "Before" the universe, there could be any number of agents active, including a hypothetical universe-creating particle. I do not claim to have evidence of such a particle, but neither do I have any evidence of God. If we want to figure out where the universe came from, we're going to have to study it with science.

    It's difficult to have an exact definition for the word "atheist." I contend that it is similar to the state of not believing in Bigfoot. I have been exposed to the idea of Bigfoot, as well as things that some say constitute evidence for his existence. I deem the evidence insufficient, and I do not believe in Bigfoot. It is the same with God.

    Because people who believe in unicorns don't persecute those who don't. They don't seek to gain government office and force unicorn-related laws onto people.

    But it would. If God interacts with the physical world, that would be measurable and detectable. However, when scientists examine phenomena, they consistently find that natural events are the cause.

    "God did it" is a guess. Scientists have some plausible theories, but nobody actually knows for sure.

    The genealogies in Matthew and Luke contradict each other. The typical response to this is that one is Mary's and the other Joseph's, but the Biblical text quite clearly states that they are both discussing Joseph. There are others for which I have seen various explanations, but eventually you simply have to wonder whether it makes more sense that God wanted us to jump through an absurd number of hoops to understand a book that he thinks is very important to understand or that the Bible was written by ignorant bronze age tribesmen.

    Yes it is. Claiming micro evolution occurs but not macro is like believing in seconds but not hours. Speciation has been observed. Examples: William Rice's fruit flies, hawthorn flies in America, Evening primrose, as well as any number of bacteria. Of course, most of these are small examples involving small organisms with short reproductive cycles. This is, of course, because we've been observing for this sort of thing for a short period of time, and evolution takes time to happen.

    Of course, the main evidence for evolution is not observed speciation, but observed relationships between existing species. Fossils are by no means the best example, although they're pretty good. The best evidence is probably genetic. The farther back you go before two species have a common ancestor, the less similar their genes are. The thing is, given known/estimated mutation rates, you can get the same length of time to the common ancestor regardless of which portion of the genome you look at. FOXP2, retroviral DNA, non-coding DNA, it all yields the same results.

    A great example: humans have one fewer chromosome than our nearest genetic relatives. At first, this appears to be a problem for evolution. However, if you look closely, chromosome 2 in humans corresponds to a head-to-head fusion of two chromosomes found in chimpanzees. This fusion occurred sometime after the evolutionary split between humans and chimpanzees.

    No, because there aren't any. I've looked up information on the Internet, and every bit of it is simply an uninformed person claiming that some particular piece of evidence for evolution does not constitute such without actually understanding it.

    I would not say this exactly. When you look at phenomena, they appear to have a natural cause. Thus, no evidence is produced for the existence of God. I would say this could constitute evidence against a directly interfering God.

    I would agree with your assessment of this statement. This claim is not made universally by atheists.
  8. #8 RJ, Sep 7, 2011
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2011
    You have a lot here, I'll just address this part:

  9. #9 namith, Sep 7, 2011
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2011
    I used to believe based on "truth from the heart". Eventually though, after doing a little research, I figured out that it's very easy for your body and mind to fool you with that sort of thing. I can induce the same feelings as I used to on purpose; I no longer interpret them as any sort of supernatural event. Also, different religions claim this same kind of heartfelt truth. Muslims and Hindus "know" they're right because they feel it in their heart. Why do you reject their claim to such while still making it yourself?

    This is not a known fact. I personally think it is likely that Jesus was a real person, but there is actually very little if any contemporary documentation of his life.

    Why should I believe the Bible?
  10. namith,

    Noone can make you believe what you don't want to believe, but know this my friend that there is a God and He loves you very much. Whether you know it or not you are His creation and He placed you in the secret place of your mother's womb. He knew you before you were formed and knew all your days as though there were none. It's no suprise to Him what you are thinking, feeling or can choose not to believe that but it won't change the truth...truth is still truth and will always be truth. Jesus will be there and exsists whether one believes or not. He doesn't change and will be same today, yesterday and tomorrow. I'm going to leave you with some verses from the very written word of God. I do hope they bless you as they have very much blessed and helped me out.

    Psalm139:13-16 For You formed my inward parts; You covered me in my mother's womb. I will praise You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made; Marvelous are Your works, And that my soul knows very well. My frame was not hidden from you, when I was made in secret, And skillfully wrought in the lowest part of the earth. Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed. And in your book they all were written, the days fashioned for me, When as yet there were none of them.

    Jeremiah29:11 For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the Lord, thoughts
    of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope. then you will call upon Me and go and pray to Me, and I will listen to you. And you will seek Me and find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart, I will be found by you, says the Lord, and I will bring you back from your captivity.

    In the above verses we see that God indeed formed you and loves you more than you know. He wants to give you His peace, a future and a hope...He wants the very best for you and if you will seek Him you will find Him. He is there and always has been He is just waiting for you to answer His knocking at the door of your heart.

    Hebrews.13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, today and forever!

    Malachi3:6 For I am the Lord I do not change.

    Hebrews13:5 For He(Jesus) Himself said " I will never leave you nor forsake you.

    He is there and no amount of unbelief will change that and He promises you that He will never leave nor forsake you that He will be always there there for you no matter what. It doesn't matter what you believe because our Lord Jesus Christ still loves you and still wants you...He wants to give you every blessing that you can imagine and beyond. I will be praying that you get to know Him and His love because there is nothing like it in the whole world and I personally know that yes I still face trials but it would be alot harder to face them if I were living without Him.

    God bless you namith now and always.
  11. Touchy subject is touchy.

    No one knows for sure, that's why it is called faith and not fact. :)
  12. To Abbys: I appreciate the sentiment, but do you have any reason why I should believe in God? If he actually exists, it would make sense to believe in him, but you have offered no evidence that would lead me to do so.

    To Fraction: With your post, I agree completely.
  13. Its called faith because you are believing in the unseen.If I see something I don't have to have faith it exisits do I? its easy to believe when you can see it but what about when you seem to think you can't...I know for sure there is a God and I know that I wouldn't be here today if it weren't for Him...many think He isn't seen, but He His very nature..the trees, flowers, every animal and bird and the each call of the animals and birds...the sun in the sky, a sunset ...He is there.

    Hebrews11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.For by it the elders obtained a good testimony. By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things that are seen were not made of things which were visible.

    the word substance in the above verse means reality..the things that are hoped for are reality and evidence means proof which means faith proves that which is unseen is real. In the second part of verses 1 and 2 talks about by faith we know that God created the universe.....this is the meaning of faith my is knowing
    that Our Lord may be unseen but He is still real...we can't have faith if we aren't sure that is not what faith would one put their faith into something if they didn't know for sure? They don't do this is not faith.

    namith you asked for evidence that God exsists..why not ask the one that you doubt for evidence of His exsistance...He will reveal Himself to you. Whatever I say you will argue with my friend so it would not benafit either of us to keep going back and forth. I have given you biblical truth it was not sentitment but fact from His very written word and that is all I can do..the rest needs to be between you and Jesus Christ now.

    In God's Love
  14. To Abbys: Every religion says that you should have faith in their God and seems unable to provide evidence. If a Hindu said to you that the world, everything in it, and their faith in Brahman is sufficient evidence for Brahman, would you accept that? If not, why not?

    I have asked God for evidence of his existence. When I was a Christian with wavering faith, I asked for evidence. I still do occasionally, although I don't actually believe that the prayers go anywhere. None has surfaced.
  15. #15 Fraction, Sep 9, 2011
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2011
    Faith is chance taking. Faith is trust.

    If you let your friend borrow something of yours, you have faith that they will return it. If a friend tells you a secret, you believe and trust them (faith). If your parents promise to protect you when you are a child, you believe them. These are all examples of real life things that involve faith. Things you can see, touch, smell, etc etc.

    Showing a fraction of faith in Jesus Christ is the first step. It is taking a chance with something you are unsure about. This is you seeking back to God as He seeks for you. God will pull you closer, and empower your faith. This isn't always the case 100% of the time, but this happens so much that it cannot be ignored.

    Abby, we are all called differently. We will always be different and see things in very different perspectives. It is wonderful that you see God everywhere in life and nature. I also do this, because nature is actually very beautiful. However, people do believe that God does exist for many other reasons. A solution to a problem in their life, A solution to an afterlife theory, and so many more reasons. We cannot merely say "God does exist because I see/feel him everywhere". From observing, this puts people (like atheists) off. I think in our mission here on earth, the word "believe" is much more powerful.

    Atheism Thread

    None of us can prove that God is 100% real. This is why faith is our only requirement into heaven. Taking that chance, when you don't even have to. Making that choice, when no one is making it for you. If it could so easily be proven, then everyone would be Christian and no one could deny it. There would be very little persecution.

    Science cannot prove that there is no God or higher power. Remember that atheism is a "no higher power" belief. Agnostics are the ones who kinda believe in something, kinda don't, unsure people. Science has been wrong thousands of times, and is never 100% ironclad fact. It forever changes as technology and knowledge improves. There is a possibility for all we know to somehow change. Just saying.

    Both of these factions can provide a very large amount of questions that the other faction cannot answer. Where did the dinosaurs come from? How could something come from nothing? Why is there so much suffering in the world? Why are things so amazing and perfect like a puzzle piece? Why hasn't God shown himself to us or spoken to the world? Why are there miracles or unexplained medical events?

    Atheists will answer with science, no god, we control it, natural phenomena, etc etc.

    Christians will respond with mostly because God says so or it's his plan. Some will say that God is testing us. Some will say that Satan is tempting us.

    You can't fight each other, no one will win. God made it that way, because debating, arguing, asking stupid questions, and killing each other over differences is NOT the way to go about it. Jesus didn't argue with people. He didn't tell random people they would go to hell or be destroyed in a lake of fire. He didn't debate with people. He displayed his faith in a way that people could see and love. That is what does it.

    You will surprise an atheist with an understanding and open mind. You WILL change their perspective in some way. You will force them away when you shove your beliefs down their throat and challenge theirs. Don't set yourself up to fail with debates. :)
  16. Hello Namith.

    I noticed your post, you said:

    "A great example: humans have one fewer chromosome than our nearest genetic relatives. At first, this appears to be a problem for evolution. However, if you look closely, chromosome 2 in humans corresponds to a head-to-head fusion of two chromosomes found in chimpanzees. This fusion occurred sometime after the evolutionary split between humans and chimpanzees."

    An evolutionary split between humans and monkeys. What an interesting conjecture, I hope you have some strong evidence to support this theory.

    Just one chromosome difference!

    Surely Namith the differences between monkey and man are a touch more than this simplistic observation. You must be kidding.
  17. Evolution is and always has been a theory. It is an incomplete reason for the existence of humanity. It doesn't mean that it is impossible, it just means we are too young to understand it completely.

    Don't get me wrong, I do believe that God created humanity. Who is to say exactly what process he went about to create it though? God created all life, and most of it can be taken apart and defined by science. God created science.
  18. These are great examples. Notice something about each of these: there is a reason to have faith in the person. You have a friend who has been trustworthy for years, so you let him borrow your stuff. You wouldn't let a complete stranger borrow something important and just trust him to give it back. You have reason to trust your friend. Now, why should I trust God when his answers look exactly like random chance via natural processes?

    Again, I can only attempt to believe in something if I have some reason to do so. If God exists, I'd love to believe in him, and probably even worship him. I would hate to be wrong about something so important. But I don't believe, and couldn't make myself without some legitimate reason to. "I want it to be true" or "it makes me feel good" have no bearing on the actual reality of something.

    I once had a powerful religious experience. I was dealing with a problem that had plagued me for three years. I discovered the teachings of the Buddha, and took them to heart. I recited the three refuges and decided to become a Buddhist. Immediately, my problem began to fade away. Is this evidence of Buddhism?

    If demons and Satan exist, then they know God exists and yet are not Christians. Knowing that God exists would not take away our free will about whether or not to follow him.

    This is not entirely accurate. Atheists do not believe in God. Agnostics are not sure whether or not God exists. Those do not answer the same question. I am both an atheist and an agnostic. I don't believe in God, but I'm not sure about it.

    Previous lifeforms.
    Happens all the time. See virtual particles. Also, the universe could have been "preceded" by something different, not nothing.
    Living beings evolved pain as a mechanism to avoid harmful things.
    They aren't. Many things are quite awful. Since there are many things that could be either good or bad, it is only natural that some are good and some are bad. If you mean, "why is the universe fine-tuned for life", I'd say: because if it weren't, nobody would be asking the question.
    He doesn't exist.
    Because we humans don't know everything there is to know yet.

    I post one strong example of evidence for evolution, which you don't understand or even attempt to refut, and all you say is, "I hope you have evidence?" You must be kidding. Think about what I said. Two chromosomes from our nearest evolutionary cousins sit in our genome, fused head-to-head. If evolution is not true, how did that happen? Actually look at the evidence for evolution. It's either true, or God worked very, very hard to make us think it is.
  19. Hello Namith.

    That was a very strong reply my friend.

    "I post one strong example of evidence for evolution, which you don't understand or even attempt to refut,"

    Oh, I do understand what you are using as your evidence.

    Your saying that monkey chromosome 11 and 12 fused to form human
    chromosome 2. If so, how do you know that this is what happened?

    To offer this explanation as some kind of proof, I would assume that you can provide some evidence that this has occurred?

    Chromosome counts between humans and monkeys are different, this is unfortunate for evolutionists is it not.
  20. Chromosome 2 matches the two monkey chromosomes. They are nearly identical. You can even see the markers that used to be on the ends of the two chromosomes (telomeres), now vestigial, sitting in the middle of the human version.

Share This Page

Users Who Have Read This Thread (Total: 0)