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Are they part of the church ??? the 144,000 that is

Loyal
Revelation 7:1-17
After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth, that no wind might blow on earth or sea or against any tree. Then I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, with the seal of the living God, and he called with a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm earth and sea, saying, “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.” And I heard the number of the sealed, 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel: 12,000 from the tribe of Judah were sealed, 12,000 from the tribe of Reuben, 12,000 from the tribe of Gad, ...
 
Loyal
To Understand What Is Happening With The 144,000 It'S Really Useful To Know A Bit About Some Of The Literary Craft Of The Revelation. There'S An Ongoing Difference Between What John Hears And What He Sees.

For Example In Revelation 5, One Of The Elders Says "See, The Lion Of The Tribe Of Judah, The Root Of David Has Triumphed"

But When John Looks

"Then I Saw A Lamb"

So He Hears "Lion", But Sees "Lamb"

There's Simple And Deep Reflection To Be Done There On The Nature Of Jesus Our Saviour.

The Same Pattern Is In Revelation 7

"Then I Heard The Number Of Those Who Were Sealed: 144,000 From All The Tribes Of Israel"

"After This I Looked, And There Before Me Was A Great Multitude From Every Nation, Tribe, People And Language, Standing Before The Throne"

The First Part Resembles The Roll Call Of The Men Over 20 Able To Fight In Battle At The Beginning Of The Book Of Numbers. By The Time Of The Revelation, Most Of The Tribes Of Israel Had Scattered And Disappeared.

But Instead There Is The Vast Multitude. So my answer is that the 144,000 is the church - saints from every age beyond number..
 
Loyal
Rev 14:1; Then I looked, and behold, the Lamb was standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads.
Rev 14:2; And I heard a voice from heaven, like the sound of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder, and the voice which I heard was like the sound of harpists playing on their harps.
Rev 14:3; And they *sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one could learn the song except the one hundred and forty-four thousand who had been purchased from the earth.
Rev 14:4; These are the ones who have not been defiled with women, for they have kept themselves chaste. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These have been purchased from among men as first fruits to God and to the Lamb.
Rev 14:5; And no lie was found in their mouth; they are blameless.

Isa 37:32; "For out of Jerusalem will go forth a remnant and out of Mount Zion survivors. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this."'

Rom 9:27; Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, "THOUGH THE NUMBER OF THE SONS OF ISRAEL BE LIKE THE SAND OF THE SEA, IT IS THE REMNANT THAT WILL BE SAVED;
 
Loyal
Why wouldn't they be?

Exactly my thought,,,

in another post here on TJ @Sue D. says the church is gone and not mentioned after chapter 3 or 4. so I just wanted to point out the church the saints who believe in Jesus are all through out the whole book of revelation.

This common teaching in today's church that the church is gone after chapter 3 or 4 in the book of revelation is so widely excepted, yet the saints,, the people who are the church are every wear in the whole book.
I dont get how what seems to me be such a wrong teaching is so widely excepted.
 
Loyal
Exactly my thought,,,

in another post here on TJ @Sue D. says the church is gone and not mentioned after chapter 3 or 4. so I just wanted to point out the church the saints who believe in Jesus are all through out the whole book of revelation.

This common teaching in today's church that the church is gone after chapter 3 or 4 in the book of revelation is so widely excepted, yet the saints,, the people who are the church are every wear in the whole book.
I dont get how what seems to me be such a wrong teaching is so widely excepted.

The question of the thread Is whether or not the Church is separate from Israel / the Jews / Children of Israel. OR an extention OF.

There Are people -- in one form or another -- mentioned throughout the book of Revelation. In the form of angels or 'living creatures'. And it would be noticed that as a result OF the 'angels sounding' there is activity upon the earth taking place. Most of it not sounding very pleasant. And then there are the three 'woes'. A lot of descriptive phrasing. Then in chapter 11 -- 'Gentiles' are mentioned as are 'my two witnesses' and 'two olive trees'

and in vs 9 "Then those from the peoples, tribes, tongues, and nations will see their dead bodies three and a half days and not allow their dead bodies to be put into graves. vs 10 And those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them, make merry, and send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth." vs 11 Now after the three and a half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them. vs 12 And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here. And they ascended to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies saw them."

That is the activity happening during the 2nd 'woe'.

And, of course, there's lots more. But , to Me at least, it does Not sound like the Church is experiencing any of this. There are Plenty of non-believers left in this world After the Church is taken out.

And, just Maybe, 'this common teaching' Is such because it's True.

Looking at chapter 14: 13 -- "Then I heard a voice from heaven saying to me, "Write: 'Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on." Yes, says the Spirit, "That they may rest from the labors, and their works follow them."

Apparently there are people dying as martyrs. And martyrs are those who die for their beliefs. How about the concept that the Jews who accept Christ as their Messiah will Die For their belief.

But -- back to chapter 7 and vs 4 "And I heard the number of those who were sealed. 144,000 of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed; and the passage continues to list 12,000 from each of the named tribes. and then vs 9 talks about the 'great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands. and then vs 10 and on to vs 14 explaining that these are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

Seems that people go 'round and round' about 'this'.

So -- is the Church an extention of Israel / or separate. Is God giving the non-believing Jews a second chance to come to Himself? They were -- are still -- His first chosen people. Salvation was extended To the rest of the world Because of them.

Another comment -- being part of the Children of Israel -- does Not automatically make a person a born-again believer. No matter Who a person is -- what nationality they are -- it's the individual who either accepts or rejects Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior. It's the blood of Jesus Christ on the cross that 'washes away my sins'. Jesus Christ being the Son of God.

The tribe of Judah is the line that Jesus Christ came through. Jesus was a Jew. (to the Jews 1st and also to the Greeks).
 
Loyal
@Reba1 -- I grew up on Scofield notes at the bottom of the Bible -- got too sidetracked Away from the actual inspired Scripture. To lots of people -- he was as inspired as Scripture was.

I get Bibles with no extra notes.

The book of Revelation is one of the more mystifying books given to us.

@Dave M -- maybe what needs to be thought about it what makes a Biblical teaching to be 'wrong' to some and okay with others. Does it affect a person's salvation? A person Needs to make sure they are a born again believer. And it's true that God will never leave us or forsake us.
 
Active
@Reba1 -- I grew up on Scofield notes at the bottom of the Bible -- got too sidetracked Away from the actual inspired Scripture. To lots of people -- he was as inspired as Scripture was.

I get Bibles with no extra notes.

The book of Revelation is one of the more mystifying books given to us.

@Dave M -- maybe what needs to be thought about it what makes a Biblical teaching to be 'wrong' to some and okay with others. Does it affect a person's salvation? A person Needs to make sure they are a born again believer. And it's true that God will never leave us or forsake us.
Do you really believe Scofield was inspired ?
Scofield, page 1334
“This passage [Rev 3:21], in harmony with Lk. 1.32,33; Mt. 19.28; Acts 2.30,34,35; 15.14-16, is conclusive that Christ is not now seated upon His own throne. The Davidic Covenant, and the promises of God through the prophets and the Angel Gabriel concerning the Messianic kingdom await fulfillment.”

Scripture says
Galatians 3:16
“Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.”
Galatians 3:27-28
“For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if y e be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
Scofield says
Scofield, page 1204
“That the Christian now inherits the distinctive Jewish promises is not taught in Scripture.”
 
Loyal
@Reba1 -- I commented that lots of people did think of Scoffield's notes as almost inspired as inspired as God's Word.

But, no -- Scoffield was not inspired.

You really don't need to try to convince me that he wasn't inspired. :)
 
Active
@Reba1 -- I commented that lots of people did think of Scoffield's notes as almost inspired as inspired as God's Word.

But, no -- Scoffield was not inspired.

You really don't need to try to convince me that he wasn't inspired. :)
DUH Now i see this part..
To lots of people -- he was as inspired as Scripture was. shame on me :)
 
Moderator
Staff Member
The question of the thread Is whether or not the Church is separate from Israel / the Jews / Children of Israel. OR an extention OF.

There Are people -- in one form or another -- mentioned throughout the book of Revelation. In the form of angels or 'living creatures'. And it would be noticed that as a result OF the 'angels sounding' there is activity upon the earth taking place. Most of it not sounding very pleasant. And then there are the three 'woes'. A lot of descriptive phrasing. Then in chapter 11 -- 'Gentiles' are mentioned as are 'my two witnesses' and 'two olive trees'

and in vs 9 "Then those from the peoples, tribes, tongues, and nations will see their dead bodies three and a half days and not allow their dead bodies to be put into graves. vs 10 And those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them, make merry, and send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth." vs 11 Now after the three and a half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them. vs 12 And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here. And they ascended to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies saw them."

That is the activity happening during the 2nd 'woe'.

And, of course, there's lots more. But , to Me at least, it does Not sound like the Church is experiencing any of this. There are Plenty of non-believers left in this world After the Church is taken out.

And, just Maybe, 'this common teaching' Is such because it's True.

Looking at chapter 14: 13 -- "Then I heard a voice from heaven saying to me, "Write: 'Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on." Yes, says the Spirit, "That they may rest from the labors, and their works follow them."

Apparently there are people dying as martyrs. And martyrs are those who die for their beliefs. How about the concept that the Jews who accept Christ as their Messiah will Die For their belief.

But -- back to chapter 7 and vs 4 "And I heard the number of those who were sealed. 144,000 of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed; and the passage continues to list 12,000 from each of the named tribes. and then vs 9 talks about the 'great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands. and then vs 10 and on to vs 14 explaining that these are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

Seems that people go 'round and round' about 'this'.

So -- is the Church an extention of Israel / or separate. Is God giving the non-believing Jews a second chance to come to Himself? They were -- are still -- His first chosen people. Salvation was extended To the rest of the world Because of them.

Another comment -- being part of the Children of Israel -- does Not automatically make a person a born-again believer. No matter Who a person is -- what nationality they are -- it's the individual who either accepts or rejects Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior. It's the blood of Jesus Christ on the cross that 'washes away my sins'. Jesus Christ being the Son of God.

The tribe of Judah is the line that Jesus Christ came through. Jesus was a Jew. (to the Jews 1st and also to the Greeks).
Greetings Sue,

i am reminded of how Jesus is the Vine and while Israel is 'broken off' for now, and the Gentiles grafted in, Israel, if they continue not in unbelief will be grafted back in.


Bless you Sister ....><>
 
Active
Top Poster Of Month
What is the church? Church is anglicized for the greek Ekklesia, which means: called out ones, or gathering of the called out ones.

Yeshua is eternal, HE is not only the Son of God, HE is God the Son. Yeshua is also the LIGHT that draws people to HIM to be justified and sanctified and eventually glorified with HIM. All that are HIS are sealed with the Holy Spirit. The 144,000 are sealed and are HIS. Therefore the 144,000 are called out, part of the BODY of CHrist, along with all the other's called out: the ekklesia, the church. The answer is Yes.
 
Loyal
God is eternal, yes -- there is the trinity -- God the Father, Jesus Christ His Son and the Holy Spirit.

The 144,000 are 'of all the tribes of the children of Israel' vs 3 of Rev 7 "saying, Do not harm the earth, the sea or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads."

They are 'called' for a special purpose at this future time.

So -- what do you do with vs 9, 10, 13 and 14?
 
Active
Top Poster Of Month
God is eternal, yes -- there is the trinity -- God the Father, Jesus Christ His Son and the Holy Spirit.

The 144,000 are 'of all the tribes of the children of Israel' vs 3 of Rev 7 "saying, Do not harm the earth, the sea or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads."

They are 'called' for a special purpose at this future time.

So -- what do you do with vs 9, 10, 13 and 14?

All the saints worldwide alive at the time go through the tribulation period and are comforted by and evangelized by the 144,000. This all occurrs during the pouring out of Satan's and antichrist's fury on the earth, and prior to God pouring out HIS wrath.
 

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