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All Things!!

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Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God. Have we ever considered the implications of that statement? All things; beautiful things, loving things, honourable things, dishonourable things, even evil things; All things. All does after all, mean all! People confess many varied things on Talk Jesus, and we counsel, even point out the negatives, but we often forget that the people confessing or seeking counsel are often, extremely unhappy, lovers of God. Matthew 5:22 and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. People will confess many sins on Talk Jesus, and often we answer in extremely negative ways, that according to scripture carry worse penalties than the sins we are reacting to. I believe it would be incumbent on us all to ask forgiveness for many of the reactions we have had to brothers and sisters who have confessed seeking advice and love and have, instead, been given scriptures, often used out of context, to condemn and humiliate them. This post is not directed to any specific brother or sister on this site, it is addressed to all of us. Bless us all.
 
Active
Hey Trevor, LOL, I am not picking a fight ok,:joy:. But check this out, and compare this with; "Romans 8:28", your 1st sentence. I ran up on this one day, while I was thinking, "Romans 8:28"

John 14:21
Whoever has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me. The one who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and reveal Myself to him."

John 14:23
Jesus replied, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make Our home with him.

John 15:10
If you keep My commandments, you will remain in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and remain in His love.

So, would you say; if a person does not meet this criteria, above, "Romans 8:28" will not apply to them.

To be safe and comfortable in your reply, just start off like this: "in my opinion I believe the Bible teaches ......etc" :)
 
Active
All things. All does after all, mean all!
John 3:35 "The Father loveth the Son and hath given ALL things into HIS hands.
John 6:39 "And this is the Fathers will which hath sent me, that of ALL which he hath GIVEN me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day."

The point that Romans 8:28 makes is that everything that enters your life is meant for your maturity if you indeed are called by the Father. Whether it be sin to forgive,
money to help others or pay your own bills, struck on one cheek so that you may turn the other, opportunity to be merciful, meek, humble, eventually pure in heart.
All these qualities are qualities that require refinement.

Mal 3:3 " And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver that they may offer unto the LORD
an offering in righteousness."
This speaks to the purifying of the preists and kings that Jesus makes of us unto God Rev 5:10 . A process of sanctification, John 17:17 ,through experiences be they
good or evil it is all to our good and applies to all who are called.

The offering in righteousness is you presenting your body as a living sacrifice daily, by doing what is right and shunning what is wrong, and trying to keep our
tongue bridled. But all this comes only as the refiner refines us into his own image.


"The Father loveth the Son and hath GIVEN ALL THINGS into his hands."

Do you suppose that Jesus died on the cross for the sin of the world (ALL of it) in order to send the majority of mankind to an eternity of torment?
Or did he do it so that he fulfilled the Fathers will, and BECAME the author of eternal salvation to ALL whose sins he paid the price for?

"As (IN ADAM) ALL die, even so (IN CHRIST) shall ALL BE MADE ALIVE." This is the end goal. For ALL to be made ALIVE in CHRIST.
"But EVERY MAN in his OWN ORDER...........only God knows the order, and we who are the called according to the wisdom of God will finish the course as Jesus is the
author and finisher of our faith and it is impossible for him to fail in our refinement process.
 
Active
Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God. Have we ever considered the implications of that statement? All things; beautiful things, loving things, honourable things, dishonourable things, even evil things; All things. All does after all, mean all! People confess many varied things on Talk Jesus, and we counsel, even point out the negatives, but we often forget that the people confessing or seeking counsel are often, extremely unhappy, lovers of God. Matthew 5:22 and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. People will confess many sins on Talk Jesus, and often we answer in extremely negative ways, that according to scripture carry worse penalties than the sins we are reacting to. I believe it would be incumbent on us all to ask forgiveness for many of the reactions we have had to brothers and sisters who have confessed seeking advice and love and have, instead, been given scriptures, often used out of context, to condemn and humiliate them. This post is not directed to any specific brother or sister on this site, it is addressed to all of us. Bless us all.
Well, would we owe the "RCC" a great apology, of all the bad things we have said about them! For they gave us the Bible, hospitals and schools, and they are truly our brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus our Lord, and all of the harsh things Christians has said about our Brother in Christ "John Calvin" that you cannot bring up His name, and he is one of the Grestest Theologian that ever been for the Christian faith. So I am in agreement with you concerning this matter!

All things work together! For those "who love God"! And for those who not love God, that is a different story!

In my opinion and believe that is what the Bible teaches. Until I am proved other wise.:pensive:

This is for those who like their "meat" kinda spicy and strong.:p Make sure you have some "Super Grip" on those dentures!
 
Active
Hey Trevor, LOL, I am not picking a fight ok,:joy:. But check this out, and compare this with; "Romans 8:28", your 1st sentence. I ran up on this one day, while I was thinking, "Romans 8:28"

John 14:21
Whoever has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me. The one who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and reveal Myself to him."

John 14:23
Jesus replied, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make Our home with him.

John 15:10
If you keep My commandments, you will remain in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and remain in His love.

So, would you say; if a person does not meet this criteria, above, "Romans 8:28" will not apply to them.

To be safe and comfortable in your reply, just start off like this: "in my opinion I believe the Bible teaches ......etc" :)
Hi Ploughboy, I wouldn't call debating fighting :mad: We're much too :innocent: than that, but back to the point bro. It looks like we're quoting different translations here. However, I would say that 'All things' mean the same as 'Everything', wouldn't you? If one loves the Lord, then John 14: 21 and 23 and John 15:10 are applicable. But there are times when God puts us to the test, as he did Peter. Luke 22:31-33 "Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift all of you as wheat. But I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers," But he replied, "Lord, I am ready to go with you to prison and death." When Peter denied Jesus, he first did it with an oath and then with a curse. He denied Jesus, the Son of the Living God with an oath and a curse. Can we imagine the mileage that Satan got out of that, Peter was so devastated that he ran and separated himself from his brothers, until he turned back. I believe Peter would have gone to his death with Jesus, had Satan not been given access to him. Don't you believe Ploughboy, that Satan asks permission to sift the saints to this day, and through this sifting we learn humility, and with this humility we treat our brothers and sisters with more love and understanding?
 
Loyal
I think his point here is... "for those who love God".. (and are called according to His purpose)... I don't think He's arguing the "all things" point.

Not just those who say they "love God".. but those who actually prove it by their actions.
 
Active
I think his point here is... "for those who love God".. (and are called according to His purpose)... I don't think He's arguing the "all things" point.

Not just those who say they "love God".. but those who actually prove it by their actions.
I believe Sampson clarified it admirably B.A.C
 
Active
Hi Ploughboy, I wouldn't call debating fighting :mad: We're much too :innocent: than that, but back to the point bro. It looks like we're quoting different translations here. However, I would say that 'All things' mean the same as 'Everything', wouldn't you? If one loves the Lord, then John 14: 21 and 23 and John 15:10 are applicable. But there are times when God puts us to the test, as he did Peter. Luke 22:31-33 "Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift all of you as wheat. But I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers," But he replied, "Lord, I am ready to go with you to prison and death." When Peter denied Jesus, he first did it with an oath and then with a curse. He denied Jesus, the Son of the Living God with an oath and a curse. Can we imagine the mileage that Satan got out of that, Peter was so devastated that he ran and separated himself from his brothers, until he turned back. I believe Peter would have gone to his death with Jesus, had Satan not been given access to him. Don't you believe Ploughboy, that Satan asks permission to sift the saints to this day, and through this sifting we learn humility, and with this humility we treat our brothers and sisters with more love and understanding?
Can we understand Peter actions in his fallen condiction of not being a new creature yet, for he had not been empower from on high. "Peter When you have been converted strengthen thy brethren" "And you shall receive power when the Holy Ghost come upon you," Then had he the power to stand up and die in the name of Jesus. You know that the only way we are able to stand up for Jesus with boldness, we must be empowered by the Spirit of the Living God! We are willing to lay down our lives in the name of Jesus! We love not our lives even until death! It takes the power of God for us to be empowered to that! You cannot suffer for Christ until you are empowered to do so! Beam me up Scottie! Fill me up until My Cup Runneth Over! And I will walk down thru the valley of the Shadow death! And call out to you "Trevor" come on and let's go! This is "The Way"!:cool:
 
Loyal
All things work together! For those "who love God"! And for those who not love God, that is a different story!

So true.

God loves all mankind, but he hates sin. It was through his love for mankind that Jesus shed his blood on the cross for us.

He doesn't want any to be lost but knows many will, but he allows us to decide our destiny.

John 3:1-21 gives us the full story, the last 4 verses sum up our choice and our destiny.
 
Loyal
Do you suppose that Jesus died on the cross for the sin of the world (ALL of it) in order to send the majority of mankind to an eternity of torment?
Or did he do it so that he fulfilled the Fathers will, and BECAME the author of eternal salvation to ALL whose sins he paid the price for?
He died so we would be "able" to have eternal life. There was no "eternal salvation" for the saints before Jesus died. There was really no salvation before Jesus, and no other salvation even now.

Matt 7:13; “Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
Matt 7:14; For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.


Many will go to destruction, few will enter the gate to life. Someone asked Jesus "are just a few going to be saved?" This was His answer.

Luke 13:23; And someone said to Him, “Lord, are there just a few who are being saved?” And He said to them,
Luke 13:24; “Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.
Luke 13:25; Once the head of the house gets up and shuts the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock on the door, saying, ‘Lord, open up to us!’ then He will answer and say to you, ‘I do not know where you are from.’
Luke 13:26; Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets’;
Luke 13:27; and He will say, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you are from; depart from Me, all you evildoers.’
 
Active
So true.

God loves all mankind, but he hates sin. It was through his love for mankind that Jesus shed his blood on the cross for us.

He doesn't want any to be lost but knows many will, but he allows us to decide our destiny.

John 3:1-21 gives us the full story, the last 4 verses sum up our choice and our destiny.
I wonder, why many do not address this what Jesus said to Nicodemus: This verse is just as important as all of the text that is written about how a person is "born from Above"! I have never heard anyone but maybe a "Calvinist" address this in over 40 years but me.:confused: I say let us look at this text in "Exegesis" form Implicitly is permitted I think would be ok. Whether we like the outcome or not. Come on , you "Arm Chair Theologians" and "Critical Scholars".

New International Version
The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."

New Living Translation
The wind blows wherever it wants. Just as you can hear the wind but can’t tell where it comes from or where it is going, so you can’t explain how people are born of the Spirit.”

English Standard Version
The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

Was this not the answer, Jesus gave to Nicodemus, when Nick, wanted to know, how can a person be born again. " how can these be"

Remember Exegesis and not eisegesis form. But implicit can apply.

Let's have some fun. Scholars.:cool: The reason is because you bought it up about "Nick" Read your post.
 
Loyal
What I put PB was not based on being born again, that is the start of the message, my post was based on the latter part of the message, but as always, I suggest these 21 verses should be read in full.

God loves all mankind, but he hates sin. It was through his love for mankind that Jesus shed his blood on the cross for us.

He doesn't want any to be lost but knows many will, but he allows us to decide our destiny.

John 3:1-21 gives us the full message, the last 4 verses sum up our choice and our destiny.


Here is the part I was referring to, our choice, we choose our destiny.

John 3:18-21 (NKJV)
18 He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."

My point was, God does not want any to be lost, he gives us the choice, but we should understand knowing Jesus was crucified and shed his blood for our sins, if we choose not to accept that, that is our decision. Jesus paid the price for our sins so we do not have to, if we don't accept Jesus we have chosen to pay the price for our sins ourself, there is always a price to pay, we choose our destiny.

Shalom
 
Active
Not really much into exegesis, but I will say this.
The baptism in the Holy Spirit is a union between your spirit and Gods Spirit that quickens you into spiritual life thus into his kingdom.
When Jesus states to those that he does not know them or I never knew you, it is because the union of the Sons Spirit which is the same as the Spirit of God
which he received at Jordan, has not happened yet.
Think of it like "and Adam went in unto his wife Eve and KNEW her and she CONCEIVED."
The born again experience is a spiritual impregnation of sorts that starts out as a conception, then years of gestation (maturation), then eventually out we come
into our incorruptible, immortal bodies even though most will die in the flesh first.

Indeed there are few that find this because there are few that the Father calls in this dispensation of time. Thanks be to God that there is more than one time
as ALL THINGS will be gathered together in Christ when all dispensations of times has been completed. Eph 1:10

I am extremely joyous to know that God has no intention of losing even one spirit which came out from him. Eventually as these time periods are accomplished
ALL will come to spiritual life as this was and is HIS plan for mankind, and he will not allow anyone to alter his will for any reason, as he knows what he wants
and he will have it and ALL will be so much better off that it is unexplainable. "My ways are higher than your ways etc...." To understand the love of God indeed casts
out ALL fear, and one is left with freedom.

"If YOU continue in my word, then YOU shall know the truth, and the truth shall set YOU free."

My point was, God does not want any to be lost, he gives us the choice, but we should understand knowing Jesus was crucified and shed his blood for our sins, if we choose not to accept that, that is our decision. Jesus paid the price for our sins so we do not have to, if we don't accept Jesus we have chosen to pay the price for our sins ourself, there is always a price to pay, we choose our destiny.
This is free will doctrine and anyone that truly knows the Father knows he will not let you fail because he loves you too much as he knew all of us before
we were put in these mortal bodies for educational purposes to bring us unto sons that he would be glorified by and through.

Just one question, If you have a choice how is it that "no one comes to the Son except the Father draw him?" This is Gods choosing, not ours. You must receive mercy
in the form of faith from God before your journey can begin, and as you did nothing to deserve it how can the rest who did not as of yet receive mercy be condemned,
unless it is for your benefit at the moment. This is the Mystery of Iniquity. That is to say why does sin exist? For your education and maturing into a spiritual son of God.

All men are born into condemnation, so if they have not yet received faith to believe then nothing really changed for those men.
And as far as "we choose our destiny" that is very lacking in the fact that the condemnation was a decree from God for Adams initial disobedience, which by the way,
you had nothing to do with, but yet, were still condemned before birth by the wisdom of God. Romans 5:18 You had no choice in that either.
 
Loyal
Just one question, If you have a choice how is it that "no one comes to the Son except the Father draw him?" This is Gods choosing, not ours. You must receive mercy, in the form of faith from God before your journey can begin, and as you did nothing to deserve it how can the rest who did not as of yet receive mercy be condemned,
unless it is for your benefit at the moment. This is the Mystery of Iniquity. That is to say why does sin exist? For your education and maturing into a spiritual son of God.

God knew from the start, he still knowns now, not all will accepted him. This is why we are told the condemnation.

John 3:18-21 (NKJV)
18 He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."

Everyone has the same choice, but God knows, God knew from the beginning, who will accept the is calling.

Your question is similar to, if God created everything, why did he create satan and his demons. Or, if God knows everything, why did he not stop satan's temptation in the Garden of Eden. This mess could have been avoided!

Shalom
 
Active
I understand what everyone is saying, and that most here are adamant. And sound in this view concerning Adams fall in the Garden of Eden. And most are either "Pelagian or Semi-Pelagian". In which mostly the whole world falls into that category both Christians and Nominals Christians, plus a host of non- christians.. And I do understand some of you are in your Theology, lean more towards "Arminianism" in your Christian point of view. All which is find. And I have a "Augustinian, [ Calvinistic] " view of the fall in Genesis. That is Adam and Eve lost their ability [their will]. to chose anything of God. I was not taught this view, but I achieve this from my own personally reading of scripture before I even knew who , Augustine or John Calvin was. So in essence I will leave you gentlemen with your "Thread" because it is no way i can come to agreement on this particular matter. For I am a "Augustinian Monk"! LoL:relieved:
 
Active
Your question is similar to, if God created everything, why did he create satan and his demons. Or, if God knows everything, why did he not stop satan's temptation in the Garden of Eden. This mess could have been avoided!
Remember that when God finished his creation of All things he stepped back and said it was GOOD. And as the opening says
"All things work for the good of those that love God " Understand it was all set up for you to become what he is.
There is no mess. His plan is playing out to perfection right down to the last little detail each and every day.

Me thinks you forget that Jesus told the disciples "ye shall hear of wars and rumors of wars, but let your heart be not troubled, FOR THESE THINGS MUST NEEDS BE."

If wars are a needful thing then understanding their purpose allows one to see God in action. Indeed when you can see your Father as the source of everything
that happens to you and everyone else on this planet then he can no longer hide from you.

Romans 8:20 " For the creature was made subject to vanity, NOT WILLINGLY, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope;"

So is it really a mess or is it by design?

The truth is that when man fell it was by design as in order to be like God man must have the knowledge of good and evil, and Adam and Eve attained that for
all of us by being disobedient. The only difference in what Satan said to Eve and what God said after they partook of the tree was whether or not they would die.

Gen 3:4-5 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die; For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye
shall be as gods, KNOWING GOOD AND EVIL."


Gen 3:22 "And the LORD God said, the man has become AS ONE OF US, to know good and evil: and now lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life,
and eat and live forever:"

If the fall never happened you would never be like God knowing good and evil, and this is a must for all of his children. Overcoming the world as it is brings a
spiritual son of God to completion.

Life with the knowledge of Good and evil eternally would be hell as this is a condition of living according to a carnal mind as a master. You would never be satisfied
with anything. God did man a service by allowing them to die instead of living under the yoke of the carnal master.

Now after one is chosen to receive mercy and thus faith to believe, in time, the tree of life is theirs to eat thereof as they have overcome evil, and are ready to exist
in the kingdom of God knowing good and evil, but always choosing love over ALL else, as their experience with evil has made them abhor it.

Rev 22:14 "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the TREE OF LIFE, and may enter in through the gates into the city."

We may never agree on this subject and many others but this one has nothing to do with initial salvation. It is only study that allows one to see what the
Father is doing.

Satan the serpent was created for the temptations we read about, as God tempts no man, but temptations are necessary or they would not exist nor would
Satan.
Remember "ALL THINGS work together for good to them that love God." If you've found an exception? It only exists in your mind.
 
Loyal
Greetings brother,

A very good reply thank you.

But did not satan rebel in heaven, was he not one of the host of angelic beings, an anointed cherub, i.e., the captain of the cherubic hosts.

Was it not sometime prior to the creation of the natural order, that Satan became vain about his beauty and position, and his heart became rebellious against God. Evil was evident at that time, though scripture is not clear when Lucifer rebelled and was kicked out of heaven, scripture does appear to point to the fact it was before the natural order. That said, we know God created the heavens and the earth, Genesis 1, if every thing was created then then satan was created then. But we do not know for sure if God created the heavens and heavenly hosts first. It would make sense he did, but we cannot be sure.

What we can be sure of is somewhere between the creating of earth and the fall, Genesis 3, satan had rebelled, he and his followers were kicked out of heaven into the bowels of the earth.

Evil was born in heaven, and kicked out into the earth, not saturn, jupiter or mars, but the bowels of the planet earth.

Evil was in the world before the Fall, God knew this, He had dealt with it, evil was on earth before the Fall, that is why we read...

Gen 3:4-5 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die; For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye
shall be as gods, KNOWING GOOD AND EVIL."


Gen 3:22 "And the LORD God said, the man has become AS ONE OF US, to know good and evil: and now lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life,
and eat and live forever:"

Shalom
 
Active
Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God. Have we ever considered the implications of that statement? All things; beautiful things, loving things, honourable things, dishonourable things, even evil things; All things. All does after all, mean all! People confess many varied things on Talk Jesus, and we counsel, even point out the negatives, but we often forget that the people confessing or seeking counsel are often, extremely unhappy, lovers of God. Matthew 5:22 and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. People will confess many sins on Talk Jesus, and often we answer in extremely negative ways, that according to scripture carry worse penalties than the sins we are reacting to. I believe it would be incumbent on us all to ask forgiveness for many of the reactions we have had to brothers and sisters who have confessed seeking advice and love and have, instead, been given scriptures, often used out of context, to condemn and humiliate them. This post is not directed to any specific brother or sister on this site, it is addressed to all of us. Bless us all.
Sorry, I have never considered the implications of " All Things", I see it differently and I get hung up on "for the good" !
 
Active
Isaiah 45:7 "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and CREATE EVIL: I the LORD do ALL these things."

Once again we come back to the opening where we are told that ALL things work for the good to them that love God. The LORD gives himself credit for
creating evil, the job you would have is to figure out why it is necessary.
A good example of why, is forgiveness. Without sin coming against you, you could not forgive it and therefore not become more like your Father in heaven.
Forgiveness of sin is what generates love in the forgiver. This simple fact is why God will eventually remember our sins no more for HIS OWN SAKE (Isaiah 43:25),
for he is love and love cannot be found in a state of unforgiveness.

And one last verse.
Isaiah 54:16 " I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the WASTER TO DESTROY."

What do you suppose is the instrument? Sin. Rebellion? Disobedience? Lies? Murder? Adultery? etc.... Satan was appointed to the job.
 
Active
Sorry, I have never considered the implications of " All Things", I get hung up on "for the good" !
Apologies are never necessary for quoting the word of God, as that is the thing that brings wisdom to the reader, and favour from God for the doer.

Proverbs 8:35 "For whoso findeth me findeth life, and shall obtain favour of the LORD." Wisdom is the author of the verse.
Luke 2:52 "Jesus grew in wisdom and in stature, and in favour with God and man."
John 5:26 "For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he GIVEN to the Son to have life in himself;" Having autonomous life within ones self for eternity I think I would have to call that favour from the Father, or reward for having found wisdom.
 
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