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Abraham's Bosom?

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Loyal
Abraham's Bosom?? di Jesus clear it out?? or is still where we go when die today, I have always thought that it was for the OT saints but after studying up on it it does not seem to be a clear answer.
 
Loyal
Interesting topic, it's only really called that twice in the Bible. Both are in the story of Lazarus.

Luke 16:22; "Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried.
Luke 16:23; "In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and *saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.

Many believe this was also called Paradise

2 Cor 12:2; I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a man was caught up to the third heaven.
2 Cor 12:3; And I know how such a man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, God knows—
2 Cor 12:4; was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which a man is not permitted to speak.

This is where Jesus told the thief on the cross he would be.

Luke 23:43; And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."

I think this mostly comes from the story of Lazarus and the rich man. Sheol was shaped like a "T".
Paradise was on one side, Hades was on the other side, but these was a deep chasm between them.
It appears you could see from one side to the other side. In the case of Lazarus you could even talk to those
of the other side.

A major doctrine is that while Jesus was "dead" for three days. He descended into Sheol.

Eph 4:8; Therefore it says, "WHEN HE ASCENDED ON HIGH, HE LED CAPTIVE A HOST OF CAPTIVES, AND HE GAVE GIFTS TO MEN."
Eph 4:9; (Now this expression, "He ascended," what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth?
Eph 4:10; He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.)

The thought is... no one went directly to heaven before this time. They went to Paradise/Abraham's Bosom.
After Jesus took back the earth from Satan, and all authority had been given to Him.

Matt 28:18; And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.
Php 2:9; For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,
Php 2:10; so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

When He (Jesus) freed the captives and ascended on high. The thought is He led them to heaven.

Not all Christians believe this, it is somewhat controversial.

The question of whether we immediately go to heaven or hell is still up for debate.
Some believe in "souls sleep" where you don't get resurrected until "the last day".

John 6:40; "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."
John 6:44; "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

John 11:24; Martha *said to Him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day."

This passage is a little confusing. It seems this resurrection doesn't happen until after the tribulation and millennial reign.
But then the next verse says these people will reign with Christ for a thousand years.

Rev 20:5; The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6; Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

A lot of people believe we immediately go to heaven.

2 Cor 5:6; Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord—
2 Cor 5:8; we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.

The question becomes "are we absent from the body" or do we sleep?
There are people who by-passed all of this and went straight to heaven. Of course Jesus... but at least two others.
Elijah and Enoch were taken up to heaven and didn't even die "normal" deaths.
 
Active
The New Testament - unlike the evangelical church today - does not put emphasis on 'going to heaven'.

I think the most consistent way to think about Christian hope after death is that we are taken to paradise where we await the resurrection of our bodies to reign with Christ on a renewed Earth.
 
Active
I think of paradise as the garden part of heaven..heaven itself is the heavenly city new Jerusalem. In revelation it talks of how big it is.

Interesting topic!

The last day...does this mean the last day of our lives or does it mean the last day of the entire earth?

I think when people die Jesus definitely does come for everyone. Theres enough near death experiences for people to testify to that. But we still have a choice to go with him or not up to our last breath.
 
Loyal
The last day...does this mean the last day of our lives or does it mean the last day of the entire earth?
Good question, I'm not sure I know the answer, but in the case of the other Lazarus (Martha's brother) who Jesus raised from the dead.
Was he resurrected and then called back down from heaven?

Also if the "first" resurrection doesn't happen until after the tribulation and/or millennial reign ( Rev 20:5-6; ) then how could
anyone be resurrected before that?

Rev 20:12; And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.
Rev 20:13; And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.

It's interesting the people in Hades... stay there until the great white throne judgment.
Also the people in the sea? (Does this include Christians who died at sea?) Hmmm...
So it seems, at least the people in Hades don't go directly to heaven or the Lake of Fire. They have to wait for the judgment. I notice it doesn't mention the people in Paradise/Abraham's here. So either they went to heaven when they died... or ....

I will toss another controversial wrench in the discussion here :smile:

1 Thes 4:13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.
1 Thes 4:14; For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.
1 Thes 4:15; For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
1 Thes 4:16; For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
1 Thes 4:17; Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

The rapture itself is somewhat controversial... The word "rapture" simply means "caught up" or "taken up" as in verse 17 above.
But I don't want to divert this thread into another rapture thread, and for the purpose of this discussion it doesn't really matter.
Whether this talking about the rapture, or whether this is simply the second coming doesn't really matter. The one thing to notice here
is... the "dead in Christ".. (it doesn't say dead "to" Christ, it says dead "in" Christ). This means the Christians have already died...
who are already "asleep".. won't rise until the blowing of the trumpet from the arch-angel. The rest of us (who are still alive at that time)
will not rise before those who are asleep.. the dead in Christ will rise first.
 
Loyal
Theres enough near death experiences for people to testify to that.
I have to admit I am very skeptical of these. I hare read some of the books and even seen of the movies, but...
Why does everyone see a different vision of the after-life? Why don't most of them see Jesus?
In the case of Paul, he didn't really talk about what he had seen.

Here is Isaiah's vision of God in heaven.

Isa 6:1; In the year of King Uzziah's death I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, lofty and exalted, with the train of His robe filling the temple.
Isa 6:2; Seraphim stood above Him, each having six wings: with two he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew.
Isa 6:3; And one called out to another and said, "Holy, Holy, Holy, is the LORD of hosts, The whole earth is full of His glory."
Isa 6:4; And the foundations of the thresholds trembled at the voice of him who called out, while the temple was filling with smoke.
Isa 6:5; Then I said, "Woe is me, for I am ruined! Because I am a man of unclean lips, And I live among a people of unclean lips; For my eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts."
Isa 6:6 Then one of the seraphim flew to me with a burning coal in his hand, which he had taken from the altar with tongs.
Isa 6:7 He touched my mouth with it and said, "Behold, this has touched your lips; and your iniquity is taken away and your sin is forgiven."

Woe is me... I am ruined. King James says I am undone. I am a man of unclean lips.

John's version similar is some ways.

Rev 1:10; I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like the sound of a trumpet,
Rev 1:12; Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking with me. And having turned I saw seven golden lampstands;
Rev 1:13; and in the middle of the lampstands I saw one like a son of man, clothed in a robe reaching to the feet, and girded across His chest with a golden sash.
Rev 1:14; His head and His hair were white like white wool, like snow; and His eyes were like a flame of fire.
Rev 1:15; His feet were like burnished bronze, when it has been made to glow in a furnace, and His voice was like the sound of many waters.
Rev 1:16; In His right hand He held seven stars, and out of His mouth came a sharp two-edged sword; and His face was like the sun shining in its strength.
Rev 1:17; When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. And He placed His right hand on me, saying, "Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last,
Rev 1:18; and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.

Both Isaiah and John were in absolute awe of God. John fell like a dead man at his feet. All this God is a "regular guy" in heaven
stuff certainly doesn't seem to match their descriptions.

Heb 9:27; And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,
 
Active
Hmm I thought most of them saw Jesus...I dont really read any that dont but they do have a glimpse of something..there are gates to heaven so there must be an outside and an inner court, remember Jesus is the door. Maybe some dont get that far.,
 
Loyal
Those NDE are a puzzle for sure but one thing is for sure I find very interesting, is that non of them ever report on seeing Buddha or or any of the other professed religious leaders, that is a testimony in itself.
 
Active
Abraham's Bosom?? di Jesus clear it out?? or is still where we go when die today, I have always thought that it was for the OT saints but after studying up on it it does not seem to be a clear answer.
I like BAC's posts but ultimately we don't need scripture to fully explain what should be obvious. We need to apply lateral thought off of non-debatable scriptures. We cannot / should not even start reading revelations or scripture on what transpires in spiritual realms without fully grasping who Jesus was, who God is and what His plan for mankind has always been.

It is just absolutely insane to read some conclusions people come to from reading verses 'as is'.

Example with soul sleep. God of the universe just died for you and ...He ....is...ok with not seeing you for a thousand years...? Logic fail of epic proportions.

As to Abrahams Bosom. God's plan from day 1 has been to separate those who want to serve Him from those who don't. Even if scripture did not mention an AB we should grasp a good God would do / create such. We don't need a scripture specifically stating it. We just need to look at how He separated Noah and his family from everyone else. We then also just need to consider what Jesus did on the cross. The two added together = without a doubt everyone in Abrahams bosom was taken to heaven / God's presence. If we die in Christ, we go straight to God's presence (God's presence is heaven). It is a no brainer. All it takes is grasping God's love for us.
 
Active
On these matter I feel safer depending on my faulty understanding of the scriptures than on my faulty logic and imagination.
 
Loyal
It seems a lot happens on "the last day". What and when is "the last day"? Almost all of these verses are in John.

John 6:39; "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.
John 6:40; "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."
John 6:44; "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
John 6:54; "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.

In the story of Martha's brother Lazarus who was dead. Jesus told the disciples Lazarus was "asleep". He then clarifies what this means.

John 11:11; This He said, and after that He *said to them, "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I go, so that I may awaken him out of sleep."
John 11:12; The disciples then said to Him, "Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover."
John 11:13; Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that He was speaking of literal sleep.
John 11:14; So Jesus then said to them plainly, "Lazarus is dead,

When Jesus sees Martha, He tells her Lazarus will rise again. Rise again when? Here is Martha's response.

John 11:23; Jesus *said to her, "Your brother will rise again."
John 11:24; Martha *said to Him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day."

All of these verses seem to indicate the dead rise.. "on the last day".

John 12:48 "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.

Those who reject Jesus ...and does not receive His sayings... will be judged by things Jesus taught... on "the last day".

So what are all the dead people in the ground (and in the sea) doing until... "the last day"?
 
Loyal
When Jesus finally died and gave up His spirit... this is what happened.

Matt 27:51; And behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth shook and the rocks were split.
Matt 27:52; The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;
Matt 27:53; and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection they entered the holy city and appeared to many.

It says.. "the saints who had fallen "asleep". Came up out of their graves and walked around... and "appeared to many".
The saints would be believers. Were they in heaven, or were they asleep? Some people say this was "the last day" Jesus was talking
about. But Paul says no... this hasn't happened yet. He wrote this letter to Timothy quite a few years after Jesus died.

2 Tim 2:17; and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus,
2 Tim 2:18; men who have gone astray from the truth saying that the resurrection has already taken place, and they upset the faith of some.

John 5:28; "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
John 5:29; and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

An hour is coming.... I personally assume this hour would be on the last day. When "everyone" (not just the saints, not just the wicked)
will rise up out of their graves and either face a "resurrection of life" or a "resurrection of judgment".

Acts 24:15; having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.
Acts 24:16; "In view of this, I also do my best to maintain always a blameless conscience both before God and before men.

Both the righteous (believers) and the wicked (unbelievers) will be resurrected at some point. (I would assume the last day).

Rev 20:4; Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
Rev 20:5; The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.

Those who have been beheaded because of their faith (in Jesus) will reign with Jesus for a thousand years (the millennial reign).
Everyone else... "the rest of the dead" ... do not come to life until the thousand years is over.
 
Loyal
It is amazing how many verses talk about being "asleep" in the context of death.
We already talked about Lazarus. He had already been dead for 3 days.

John 11:12; The disciples then said to Him, "Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover."

Stephen when he was stoned to death.
Acts 7:60; Then falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them!" Having said this, he fell asleep.

David when he died.
Acts 13:36; "For David, after he had served the purpose of God in his own generation, fell asleep, and was laid among his fathers and underwent decay;

Paul talks about those who saw Jesus walk around after His resurrection, but some of them "have fallen asleep".
1 Cor 15:6; After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep;

1 Cor 15:18; Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.
1 Cor 15:20; But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.
1 Thes 4:13; But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.
1 Thes 4:14; For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.
1 Thes 4:15; For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
1 Thes 5:10; who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him.
2 Pet 3:4; and saying, "Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation."

None of these verses are talking about literal sleep.
 
Loyal
The last trumpet. It seems that something that goes along with the "last day".. is the "last trumpet".

Matt 24:29; “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Matt 24:30; And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory.
Matt 24:31; And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

It seems the "elect" aren't gathered together until Jesus returns and the trumpet sounds.

1 Cor 15:51; Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
1 Cor 15:52; in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

We won't all necessarily "sleep" (die). But we will all be changed. When does this happen? When the last trumpet sounds and
the dead are raised. It seems the dead aren't raised before this time.

1 Thes 4:14; For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.
1 Thes 4:15; For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
1 Thes 4:16; For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
1 Thes 4:17; Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

Again we see here... when do the dead in Christ (who are "asleep") rise? When the Lord returns and the trumpet sounds.
It says there will be a "great shout" from the Lord. Could this be the voice in John 5?

John 5:28; Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
John 5:29; and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

There seems to be a lot of scripture that seems to support this idea. Literally dozens of verses.. versus one single scripture that
says...

2 Cor 5:6; Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord—
2 Cor 5:7; for we walk by faith, not by sight—
2 Cor 5:8; we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.
 
Active
Well yea the last day is when everyone is judged or resurrected right? Was Martha thinking too literally and was Jesus saying heaven is open right now?
To God, a thousand years is as one day its a blink of an eye for Him. i think eternity for us here on earth we have no concept of but for God thats a reality, we are operating on different time scales.
 
Loyal
Revelation 20:4
Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

it seems to me these souls are in heaven because John is in the thrown room, so this is one reason that I believe when we die we no longer go to Abrahms boosom

John 14:1-3
“Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God; believe also in me. In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also.

Jesus is in heaven it seems he is saying thats whear he will take us also when we die.

2 Corinthians 5:8
Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

this to me indicates we will be heaven when we die


1 Thessalonians 3:13
So that he may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all his saints.

it seems when he returns he is bringing all his saints with him. when we look further we see it seems he clears out heaven when he returns so I am thinking this is whear the saints are


Philippians 3:20-21 ESV / 4 helpful votes
But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.

to me this is suggesting we go to heaven not AB but that does take some specualtion


Bac thanks for the great post on this thread in the past








 
Loyal
the best scripture I believe to back up we go to heaven seems the elect are gathered up to return with Jesus and they are gathered from heaven not AB

Mathew 24

7 aFor as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. bFor wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.

c“Immediately after the tribulation of those days dthe sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. eThen the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, fand then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. gAnd He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His 4elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
 
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