“The Flesh”—Physical Body and “The Flesh”—Sinful Nature

[NetChaplain]

The Old Testament uses the word “flesh” to mean only one thing—the physical body, because it was not until Christ that the “flesh”—sinful nature—was addressed with the application of being finally “condemned” (Rom 8:3).

For example, the phrase in the above reference, “sinful flesh,” does not mean the physical body, this would conflict with “you are not in the flesh” (Rom 8:9), meaning you are no longer living for or after the dominion of the sinful nature, but rather for or after “the Holy Spirit.”

The concept that the physical body is sinful or evil is a misunderstanding, and reasonably so when considering the often obscurity of Scripture. It is the nature which determines good or evil of a spirit (person), the body just manifests what the spirit is, thus the body is subject to the person, whether it will be used for good or evil.

Examples:

“In the likeness of sinful flesh” (Rom 8:3); "Which expresses the reality of His incarnation, of His having a true real human nature; for flesh is not to be taken strictly for a part of the body, nor for the whole body only, but for the whole human nature, soul and body; which though it looked like a sinful nature, yet was not sinful.

“The likeness of it denotes the outward appearance of Christ in it; who was born of a sinful woman (Rom 3:23); was subject to the infirmities of human nature, which though not sinful, are the effects of sin; was reckoned among transgressors, was traduced as one Himself by men, and treated as such by the justice of God; He having all the sins of His people on him, for which He was answerable.” JG

“Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof” (Rom 6:12). “The ye should obey it” (I believe “it” is in reference, not to the body but to sin). I believe “the lusts thereof” is “the body of sin” (Rom 6:6), which pertains to the sinful nature, thus these are “your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry” (Col 3:5).

Reference: “Flesh,” Strong’s G4561, sarx, IV. The flesh, denotes mere human nature, the earthly nature of man apart from divine influence, and therefore prone to sin and opposed to God.

 

[Boanerges]

Jesus came to save your soul (mind, will, intellect, emotions, etc). What your mind thinks your body does, so be renewed in your mind. :smiley:

 

[spirit1st]

The bible says evil is in our members. But I do believe the spirits evil . Which is evil first ? I do not know. I just know we are born sinners and the body is still a sinner after salvation and still dies because of it . the Spirit after the New birth is perfect. But dwelling a short time in sin filled flesh.

But after Adam died spiritually , we do see His body was dead then . It took about 900 years to fully die .
God said ? In the day that you do this you will die. And we see a day to the Lord is 1000 of our years , so No one has ever lived one full day ever.
There was two exceptions?
These two guys , are still waiting after all these years to come back from the old heaven to die for the LORD.
Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
Rev 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

They are still in thee real flesh bodies . Because they die. But I personally believe they are Born -again now also?

LOTS we do not fully understand, It All truth 100% .No matter what we might think?

This is those two great Men of God also.
Rev_11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

 

[NetChaplain]

Jesus came to save your soul (mind, will, intellect, emotions, etc). What your mind thinks your body does, so be renewed in your mind. :smiley:

Hi B - I agree, the soul and spirit are inseparable because it is the soul which the spirit or person uses for its choices, and both are regenerated together.

 

[spirit1st]

Yes I agree both are Perfected at salvation. But God is able to divide them . Nothing is impossible for him we Know.

Heb_4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

That talking about our Spirits mind [Soul]

That the vway He judges if we are His or Not. if we have the same type mind as our lord or not?

 

[NetChaplain]

The bible says evil is in our members.

Hi S1 - Your statement is very close to the subject. You may be referring to this: "For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members" (Rom 7:5). The "members" themselves are not sinful but the sin nature in us works evil out with the "members."

Thus the members aren't sin, but sin is using them. This no longer applies to the Christian because it no longer rules us (Rom 6:12, 14) and is why it is said "were in the flesh"; "were by the law" and "did work in our members," but no longer because we are no longer (and never will be) "in the flesh," or in other word, no longer in the sinful nature (Rom 8:9)--but it is still with us, which is insignificant concerning its presence, but significant to know and identify.

 

[NetChaplain]

But God is able to divide them .

I believe what is meant by "the dividing asunder" is that "the soul and spirit are invisible, and the joints and marrow are covered and hid; so sharp and quick sighted, and so penetrating is the divine Word, that it reaches the most secret and hidden things of men." JG

That is, they are not separated from one another but are examined separately.

 

[spirit1st]

The flesh is Not free of Sin

Only though our Spirit ,which is higher . Can we reject the desires of the flesh . The more we walk and live though our spirit .The less we will allow the flesh too sin.
Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Jas 5:15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.


The flesh can sin. it a sinner Always. But in the eternal? God does not hold it against us as far as Salvation,Eternal life. But we still pay a price? we lose rewards if we do not have some control over the weak sin filled dying flesh.

The flesh does not care about others. It only wants to serve it self.

Rom_1:9 For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son

Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

We renew our flesh minds ,filling them with GOD living word and then we can live more prefect type lives for HIM. That does not mean our flesh is perfect or no longer has desires for it self.

It born into sin and dies a sinner.
If it was no longer a sinner? It would never die. Sin the killer .sin the reason all flesh dies.

Rom_6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
It must get it wages for being a sinner . If it was perfect? It would not get this payment.

It our New creature Born of god [Our spirit ] that free from sin and perfect. Our flesh is not free . We see many on earth dies before there times and all others die sooner or later . Sin the killer .

Rom_5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Rom_6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
Rom_6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
Rom_8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
1Co_6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
Eph 2:22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.


I never met anyone who did not slowly die and get old and then die. that all caused by Sin.

 

[NetChaplain]

The flesh is Not free of Sin

The sin is not in the physical body but it is is the sinful nature, which is accountable to the spirit and soul. The body is just subjected to or is a victim of these and not accountable, just effected or infected.

 

[james1523]

The physical body is just a tool, which we use to express our nature. e.g. If we have a sinful nature, our eye will be used for lusting after money or things, instead of reading the bible. It is not the eye itself that is sinful, but the nature. But if the sinful nature is expressed through the eye, then the eye becomes sinful.

The Greek word for flesh is sarx, that means the physical body primarily, but as used by Paul, means all parts of the body - both the physical body and the inward nature. Paul uses the term differently to how it is used elsewhere in the Bible. We should not get too concerned about the details, all Paul is really saying is "In me, in my being, there is nothing good", and to say "God condemned sin in the flesh", is to mean God condemned sin in sinful humanity. Paul is not saying, that the physical flesh is sinful, and the spirit is perfect, - this is a doctrine of gnosticism.


Martin Luther in his commentary on Romans says " St. Paul uses ‘flesh’ of the whole man, body, and soul, reason, and all his faculties included, because all that is in him longs and strives after the flesh.”

If we read the word flesh backwards and drop the h, we get hself, or SELF. The flesh is none other than the self which is independent of God, and is manifested through the physical body.

But sin affects the body through disease, sickness, weakness etc, and in this sense, "sin" is in the physical body, or at least the effects of it.

 

[NetChaplain]

If we have a sinful nature, our eye will be used for lusting after money or things, instead of reading the bible. It is not the eye itself that is sinful, but the nature. But if the sinful nature is expressed through the eye, then the eye becomes sinful.

Hi James - The Christian still has the sinful nature (old man) but he is not in it (Rom 8:9). Even though the body can be used for evil, it doesn't mean the body is evil, because it can be used for righteousness. Regardless the bodies actions, it is never evil because the evil is always attributed to the source and what is causes, not attributed to what it uses in its cause.

 

[james1523]

Hi James - The Christian still has the sinful nature (old man) but he is not in it (Rom 8:9). Even though the body can be used for evil, it doesn't mean the body is evil, because it can be used for righteousness. Regardless the bodies actions, it is never evil because the evil is always attributed to the source and what is causes, not attributed to what it uses in its cause.

This is one example of body parts (e.g. eye, hand) causing us to sin:

Matt 5:30 And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.

 

[brakelite]

@NetChaplain... Thankyou for introducing this topic to the forum. Very interesting and most timely, especially when one considers several other threads which touch on this topic. I am thinking of those threads which deal with sin, the law, judgement, obedience, righteousness etc. Your initial assessment I can find much with which I find agreement. The 'flesh' spoken of so often in Paul's writings I agree refers to the sinful nature of man. His inherited character which over time grows and matures depending on circumstances but always, to a more or less degree, reflects the selfishness and godlessness of fallen man. This fallen nature has a natural inclination to sin. To disobey God's laws...to scoff at holy living...to enjoy and welcome the fruits of sin...these are as natural to the unregenerated unconverted person as rotten fruit to a sick tree. This is precisely the reason we must be born again. Our nature, that part of us that has this natural propensity to evil, must die. Now we don't know exactly how it works, but the fact is that when one truly repents, and turns against the old life with its evil habits and addictions, turning to Jesus for salvation, God somehow accounts that old nature as being dead along with His Son. Paul exhorts us to not only believe this through our faith, but to also actually and literally account ourselves as being already dead in Christ, thus agreeing with God. Then we are to 'put on the new man', created in righteousness. This new man, no longer has that propensity to sin. To this new man, sin has no power. By the grace and power of God, we have dominion over sin...that means through faith we can have complete victory. (Romans 6 describes this beautifully). Walking by faith, walking 'in the Spirit' , trusting completely in God and distrusting ourselves, brings us a new way of living. Our lives are radically changed, and we are conformed, 'by the renewing of our mind', into the likeness of our Saviour. By beholding we are changed. By beholding Christ, through prayer, through God's word, through our witness, we are changed into the likeness and image of Jesus. We now have the very mind of Christ. We are born again. The 'flesh' seldom means the physical body. What the body does , as mentioned by others, is purely reflective of the nature within. The fruit which is publicly displayed for all to witness is the natural results of what ever is feeding the branch. If the root is evil, so will be the fruit. If the root is sound, so also the fruit. Our characters, over a period of time, even a lifetime, cannot help but reflect the nature of the man within. So why is it that Christians still have a hard time with old habits and traits? Because they are not living by faith, but by what they see. Rather than trusting in God's word, "You are a new man in Christ", they believe a lie of the devil and accept and believe that the 'old nature' or 'old man' is still very mush alive and well, that sin still has dominion over them, and that they can never overcome, but are bound to sin for the rest of their lives. They are walking according to the flesh, and not according to the Spirit. They are in fact living their lives in obedience to a dead man, forgetting that 'our old man is crucified with Christ, that the body of sin (the old nature) might be destroyed, That henceforth we should not serve sin...likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 6:6-11.

 

[NetChaplain]

This is one example of body parts (e.g. eye, hand) causing us to sin:

Matt 5:30 And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.

I do not believe the body parts, nor the body has its own mind or soul to make choices. It's the person who choices how to use the body. The Lord often used, as in this case, hyperbolic expression to enhance an urgency to a subject.

 

[spirit1st]

All our sins start first in our flesh mind. Then we see the results.

 

[NetChaplain]

I agree refers to the sinful nature of man. His inherited character which over time grows and matures depending on circumstances but always, to a more or less degree,

Hi BL - Thanks for your reply and I wanted to mention that the nature of man, whether in regenerate or unregenerate, is as bad as it can be and couldn't be more decadent. It just has various ways of manifesting itself. For the Christian, it is not completely hindered from effecting us, but it is restrained from ruling us (Rom 6:12, 14; Gal 5:17); not to mention the believer is completely cleared of all its guilt.

 

[brakelite]

Hi BL - Thanks for your reply and I wanted to mention that the nature of man, whether in regenerate or unregenerate, is as bad as it can be and couldn't be more decadent. It just has various ways of manifesting itself. For the Christian, it is not completely hindered from effecting us, but it is restrained from ruling us (Rom 6:12, 14; Gal 5:17); not to mention the believer is completely cleared of all its guilt.

Hi again. You say that even the regenrate person's nature is still as bad as the unregenerated man. With this I couldn't disagree more. The new man has a new nature, "which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness." This new nature however doesn't manifest itself all at once. We are born as babes. And as babes we must learn, grow, and mature. Nevertheless, from the moment we are born again, God writes His laws in our hearts, and in our minds. We are motivated by new interests, the things we once loved we now hate, and the things we once hated, we now love. But, and it is a BIG BUT, this only can happen to one who abides in Christ. Who remains attached to the vine. It is only through our continuing relationship with our Lord that we can grow, for as He said, "without Me ye can do nothing". It is as we cleave to Him, trusting in His power, strength, love, grace, and mercy, that we can be overcomers.

Ephesians 5:8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:
9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;)
(sometimes, we forget about these fruit, focusing rther on just those listed in Galatians. Some would venture that our characters or the standards of right living for the Christian are not applicable, yet here paul is saying that goodness, righteousness, and truth, are vital indicators of a life well lived. of a life of one attached to the vine. Of a life of one walking in the Spirit, in faith.)
10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.
11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.
12 For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret.
13 But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light.
14 Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.
15 See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise,
16 Redeeming the time, because the days are evil.
17 Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is

I am convinced that todays Christians for the most part are defeated and struggling; they to a large extent have given up any hope of overcoming the more deeply ingrained habits; they have been convinced by the arch enemy of their souls that sin, or the old nature, is so powerful that it is impossible in this life to overcome either. So they ride it out, 'doing their best', trusting in their own strength to live a half-baked semi-decent life rather than trusting in God's strength to live an overcomer's abundant life. They do not believ e that the old man is dead! They believe that all the old habits and addictions are strong that even God cannot overcome them. Yet in Christ they are already overcome! For the Christian, the true born again child of God, those old habits are merely memories of a past life!!! Paul says so powerfully,

Ephesians 4:25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.
26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
27 Neither give place to the devil.
28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.
29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:
32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ’s sake hath forgiven you.
Eph. 5:1 ¶ Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;
2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
3 ¶ But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. (Note well my friends, that Paul is writing to Christians here! He is saying that any Christian who is an idolator, or whoremonger, or covetous, or unclean, [that's at least 3 commandments right there] will not be in heaven)
6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.
(Note well all who maintain our behaviour here in this life has no bearing on our ultimate destiny.)

 

[brakelite]

All our sins start first in our flesh mind. Then we see the results.

Hello spirit1st. The old flesh mind my friend is dead! Romans 6:1-6. All we have is memories of an old life that God has redeemed us from. The apostle Paul says that we no longer need to live according the lifestyle and habits and sin of that old life. It is past, gone. We are no longer servants to sin, but servants to righteousness. Romans 6:18. As we yield ourselves to God (submitting to Him in all things) (Romans 6:13,16)....we are freed from the power of sin, (freed from those old habits and addictions), and we grow into mature servants of God, growing and bearing fruits of holiness, (Romans 6:22; Ephesians 4:24; Ephesians 5:9).
Living this victorious life over sin and over all the habits and ingrained bad traits of the old life puts the following verses into full perspective.
Romans 8:1 ¶ There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
(those who believe that old man is dead, and fully trusting in God's power, live in faith)
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
free from that old man's habits and vices...free from that old man's bad character...free from sin!!!)
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh,
(the law cannot bring righteousness, it can only point out our need of righteousness...it points us to the Saviour)
God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
(and hear this now...here is the reason Christ died for you....not just so you could be forgiven, not just so you could go to heaven, but...)
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Wow!! The gospel has true power! It has the power to utterly change lives! It has the power to work a miracle in any life, regardless of age, ethnicity, circumstances, history. It has the power to make us God's children! (John 1:12) Children who are partakers of the divine nature! The very same nature of our new Father!!!

1 John 3:1 ¶ Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
4 ¶ Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
(Jesus was manifested not only to clear us of guilt, but to remove our sins and our sinfulness and the inclinations to sin far from us. "He shall be called Jesus because He shall save them from their sins!!!")
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

 

[NetChaplain]

Hi again. You say that even the regenrate person's nature is still as bad as the unregenerated man. With this I couldn't disagree more.

Hi BL and I appreciate your earnest desire for God, which shows in your concern. Though the "old man" still "dwelleth in me" (Rom 7:17, 20), I (we) am "not in" it (Rom 8:9), but rather in the "new man" by the Spirit (Eph 3:16).

The Adamic nature has always been as bad as it can be, but the believer, in the new nature, which is "partaker of the divine nature" keeps manifesting the life of Christ more all the time (2 Cor 3:18). We are no longer (since rebirth) after the sinful nature (Rom 6:12, 14), but after the Holy Spirit (Gal 5:17) in the life of Jesus (Col 3:4).

 

[spirit1st]

The Old man is our OLD Spirit . It Nailed to His cross gone forever more. We still have His evil thoughts in our Spirit.
We are a spirit being. dwelling a short time in sin filled bodies. That we can control though out spirit. Our flesh minds thoughts that were of the old man , must be replaced with GOD living Words. Then we can not only live the over comers life in our Spirit man , which is our eternal man .But also in our flesh man.

Rom_6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Eph_4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
Those are the bad thoughts left behind after we get the New Man , Our new spirit Man.

Col_3:9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;

We do not have that old man any more. The main part of our being is our Spirit man. It who we really are in the eternal .

The spirit is stronger than the flesh. That why HE Tells us to walk and live though our spirit .Then we will not Sin.

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Because our new spirit Cannot sin ever.

1Jn_3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.