• Hi Guest!

    Please share Talk Jesus community on every platform you have to give conservatives an outlet and safe community to be apart of.

    Support This Community

    Thank You

  • Welcome to Talk Jesus

    A true bible based, Jesus centered online community. Join over 11,000 members today

    Register Log In

“Christians and conservatives.” Really?

Member
As time goes on I have become less active here. There are a number of little reasons why, but this is a main one:

This community accepts an assumption that Christianity = Conservatism (political, social, or both).

This notion more than rankles me. I am white. But I live in a part of Brooklyn, NY where the VAST majority of my neighbors are black, stretching a couple miles in every direction. Additionally, along many of those city blocks, stand one Christian church. The ones that DON’T have one church have two or (on several) three.

Each Sunday, the streets are choked with people double parking for church services. The cops don’t even bother writing tickets because Sunday-go-ta-meetin’ is such a deeply ingrained and accepted facet of our community.

These churchgoers are Christian. And most of them are NOT conservative. Neither are the many Latino communities that checkerboard this city beyond my immediate neighborhood. (Most of the population of these areas are Catholic, and I have been told here more than once that Catholics are not “real” Christians, which would come as quite a shock to them.)

The only people who get to decide how much or little Christianity is linked to Conservatism are the individual Christian and God himself.

Seeing Christianity shackled to Conservatism such as the message in the welcome page that greeted me today when I logged on is vexing and saddening. I’m happy to argue that social and political Conservatism are both betrayals of some of THE fundamental tenets of Christianity as long as anyone likes with as many people who like. But this assumed, inextricable linkage broadcasts that any such conversation is pointless and anathema here.

If the “one true church” is the body of Christians all the world over, this attitude, intentional or otherwise, sends a clear message that Christians who consider themselves Liberals should expect no bond with coreligionist brethren here.

To me, that is a very UNChristian principle indeed.
 
Loyal
Conservatism and Liberalism are two definitions the true meaning is often misunderstood. But at the base...
A conservative believes that man is born evil and can become good through outside influence (i.e. God, Jesus)
A liberal believes that man is born good and gets corrupted through outside influence (i.e. other people usually).

Saying you're a Christian is fine a good, but the proof is in the pudding so to speak.
Some people obviously aren't Christians. Some don't profess to be (such as yourself)
Other's probably are, but no one except God knows for sure.
Other's probably aren't, but no one except God knows for sure.
Some people claim to be Christians, but practice unbiblical, ungodly, sinful things.

It's this last group we are speaking about here. If you support LGBT, abortion, withcraft/sorcery, mind altering drugs, adultery... ( the list goes on, but these are the obvious ones that come to mind first)
You can say you're a Christian all day long.... but... the proof is in the pudding.

Jesus told they Pharisees they were sons of hell, a brood vipers, whitewashed tombs.... "fake" believers.
Over a dozen verses in the Bible warn us not to associate with these people.

We use liberalism and conservatism as blanket statements, but I doubt any is 100% either way. Even liberals and conservatives have differences in their own respective groups.

How you act and live is only a part of it. Which God you worship is another part of it. Some "denominations" claiming to be Christian worship an obviously different God than the God of the Bible.

Over a dozen verses in the New testament alone, warn us against false teachings/doctrines false prophets and false Christs.
 
Member
Conservatism and Liberalism are two definitions the true meaning is often misunderstood. But at the base...
A conservative believes that man is born evil and can become good through outside influence (i.e. God, Jesus)
A liberal believes that man is born good and gets corrupted through outside influence (i.e. other people usually).

Saying you're a Christian is fine a good, but the proof is in the pudding so to speak.
Some people obviously aren't Christians. Some don't profess to be (such as yourself)
Other's probably are, but no one except God knows for sure.
Other's probably aren't, but no one except God knows for sure.
Some people claim to be Christians, but practice unbiblical, ungodly, sinful things.

It's this last group we are speaking about here. If you support LGBT, abortion, withcraft/sorcery, mind altering drugs, adultery... ( the list goes on, but these are the obvious ones that come to mind first)
You can say you're a Christian all day long.... but... the proof is in the pudding.

Jesus told they Pharisees they were sons of hell, a brood vipers, whitewashed tombs.... "fake" believers.
Over a dozen verses in the Bible warn us not to associate with these people.

We use liberalism and conservatism as blanket statements, but I doubt any is 100% either way. Even liberals and conservatives have differences in their own respective groups.

How you act and live is only a part of it. Which God you worship is another part of it. Some "denominations" claiming to be Christian worship an obviously different God than the God of the Bible.

Over a dozen verses in the New testament alone, warn us against false teachings/doctrines false prophets and false Christs.
I disagree with just about every one of your contentions. I won’t take up the task of critiquing them all because that is not my point here, which is: it would never dawn on me to claim someone who identifies as Christian as anything other than Christian. And I take issue with any Christian who condescends to tell another professing Christian they are not what they claim to be.

I WILL counter that, while the NT definitely paints the Pharisees in a villainous light, in that social context and in particular as a counterpoint to the ministry of Jesus, they were, by definition, a paragon of conservatism, intentionally posed in contrast to the (by those contemporary standards) radical liberalism of Christ and his teachings.

I’m interested (mildly) to know of you disagree with that assessment, though not in debating over it. I don’t think the differences between my understanding of what constitute conservatism and liberalism and yours will admit of much productive dialog.
 
Active
If it is written in the bible then it is in, if it is manmade, then it is out. Its that simple. And looking to political parties for leadership or examples of how to live is what you do, then you will fail. And yes, there are many fake christians.
 
Member
If it is written in the bible then it is in, if it is manmade, then it is out. Its that simple. And looking to political parties for leadership or examples of how to live is what you do, then you will fail. And yes, there are many fake christians.

I’m not sure I understand how your comment relates to the matter I raise. Are you suggesting the Bible is innately conservative or inherently liberal? Because I can find ample scriptural basis to make either case. Could you please elaborate?

As to seeking leadership in political parties or movements, I absolutely agree that is a foolish and dangerous way to live. My opinion is political affiliation is simply a means to unite and work together with like-minded individuals towards common goals, irrespective of whether those affiliations are “liberal,” “conservative,” or even Martian.
 
Member
If it is written in the bible then it is in, if it is manmade, then it is out. Its that simple. And looking to political parties for leadership or examples of how to live is what you do, then you will fail. And yes, there are many fake christians.
Also, what is your opinion of Liberation Theology:

Liberation theology is a Christian theological approach emphasizing the liberation of the oppressed. In certain contexts, it engages socio-economic analyses, with "social concern for the poor and political liberation for oppressed peoples." In other contexts, it addresses other forms of inequality, such as race or caste.”

Do think engaging in Liberation Theology has any bearing on whether a person is a “fake” Christian?
 
Active
rather than me type a whole lot, much easier to spend 5 minutes and let the pastor explain.
 
Member

Thank you for the very eloquent clips. Indeed, I agree, they probably spare you and I a lot of unnecessary back-and-forth

While I am aware of the term, I am not sufficiently up to speed on the concept of intersectionality to respond to the pastor’s critique of it. I will say a great many people nearest and dearest to me fall into the splintering categories he describes, whereas, as a straight white cis male hetero US citizen from birth, I definitely do not. And I am a witness to the social difficulties every one of them routinely encounter as a result, difficulties to which I am peculiarly immune.

I take it the general upshot of these clips in response to my question is: you would equate adherents to liberation theology with “social Marxists” (this is my first encounter with the term). Please correct me if I’m wrong, but, owing to Marx’s explicit atheism, by extension then, you admit you would consider Christians who engage in liberation theology as false, or “fake,” Christians.

If that is so (and, again, please forgive me if I mistake you), would you also consider Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. and other participants in the civil rights movement such as the Freedom Riders fake Christians as well?
 
Active
Funny you should say that, because another sermon I came across gave very strong evidence that Martin Luther King was indeed a pseudo marxist. And he also had a lot to say about Billy Graham, but that is for another topic. I get concerned with these sort of discussions because lost sheep are coming here seeking the truth, all they are seeing is division. The bible needs to be the number one focal point in all discussions.
 
Member
Funny you should say that, because another sermon I came across gave very strong evidence that Martin Luther King was indeed a pseudo marxist. And he also had a lot to say about Billy Graham, but that is for another topic. I get concerned with these sort of discussions because lost sheep are coming here seeking the truth, all they are seeing is division. The bible needs to be the number one focal point in all discussions.
You seem reticent of calling a spade a spade. (Or, rather, of letting your “Yes” be “Yes” and your “No” be “No.”) I hate putting words in anybody’s mouth, but the only conclusion I can draw from the sum total of your comments is the Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. was a “fake Christian,” by your standards. Which is not just A topic for this discussion, but it is THE topic of this discussion.

I struggle to think of any modern exemplar of Christian principles more acute than an ordained CHRISTIAN minister, who suffered the very worst victimization at the hands of established State officialdom, who preached nothing but the first water clarity of the unifying brotherhood of all humanity, who all but said, “I am going to be CRUCIFIED for what I preach,” mere days before suffering that precise fate.

In my opinion, anyone who sees all that and complains of it being divisive according to their personal interpretation of Christianity suffers a very weird flaw of logic. I read something somewhere about such people having a log of wood in their eye. Maybe I misunderstood.
 
Loyal
@Kirby D. P.
Here's a Politico piece on how Christian Evangelicalism got shackled to the political right. You might be interested.


As a follower of Jesus Christ, I try to make my judgement calls with his teachings - such as the sermon on the mount - as a foundation.

The gap between the conservatism we see now and Jesus's words is a vast yawning chasm.
 
Member
@Kirby D. P.
Here's a Politico piece on how Christian Evangelicalism got shackled to the political right. You might be interested.


As a follower of Jesus Christ, I try to make my judgement calls with his teachings - such as the sermon on the mount - as a foundation.

The gap between the conservatism we see now and Jesus's words is a vast yawning chasm.

Hi, Hekuran. So very nice to see you here. And thanks for the article. Diving in...
 
Active
Either faction would be deceiving if they claimed or anyone on their behalf claimed that they championed the gospel to lead their policy. Are we not foreigners in another land passing thru on our way to the kingdom of God? Shall we not store up our treasures in heaven? Do you think that there is a godly one among them? I don't see how they go hand in hand.

I do offer this, @Kirby D. P., before I was converted, my ideological alignment went from "conservative" to "constitutional" aka Ron Paul. After my conversion, I really lost interest in aligning with any party. I see too much error in them and I like separating my faith from US policy; it removes a lot of confusion, maybe that is what the founders meant by separation of church and state! LOL.
 
Moderator
Staff Member
@Kirby D. P.

Greetings,

are you keeping well?

Forgive any ignorance that might follow but i think the general idea of the 'splash' page you have referred to, is not so much about this side or that but about censorship of those who have equal right to a voice?

I know history is plagued with unbalance and double standards so we don't need to labour on that here but I do ask you to step back and see that perhaps what i offer has any credence to it?

Without getting too involved in world politics, which i know little about, I do recall that censoring was a great concern recently in some countries and if we are honest, it does happen and it appears to be gaining an unsavoury momentum, similar to what history records over and over of tyrannical and oppressive rulers and empires.

I think you'll find that the reason for what you are concerned about here is something based on our desire that the Bible and the Christian faith is not gagged.


Bless you ....><>
 
Member
Either faction would be deceiving if they claimed or anyone on their behalf claimed that they championed the gospel to lead their policy. Are we not foreigners in another land passing thru on our way to the kingdom of God? Shall we not store up our treasures in heaven? Do you think that there is a godly one among them? I don't see how they go hand in hand.

I do offer this, @Kirby D. P., before I was converted, my ideological alignment went from "conservative" to "constitutional" aka Ron Paul. After my conversion, I really lost interest in aligning with any party. I see too much error in them and I like separating my faith from US policy; it removes a lot of confusion, maybe that is what the founders meant by separation of church and state! LOL.
Indeed.

But, then, what do you make of communities like Talk Jesus when they casually shackle conservatism with Christianity as though they share an identity that is an unremarkable and understood fact of reality?
 
Member
@Kirby D. P.

Greetings,

are you keeping well?

Forgive any ignorance that might follow but i think the general idea of the 'splash' page you have referred to, is not so much about this side or that but about censorship of those who have equal right to a voice?

I know history is plagued with unbalance and double standards so we don't need to labour on that here but I do ask you to step back and see that perhaps what i offer has any credence to it?

Without getting too involved in world politics, which i know little about, I do recall that censoring was a great concern recently in some countries and if we are honest, it does happen and it appears to be gaining an unsavoury momentum, similar to what history records over and over of tyrannical and oppressive rulers and empires.

I think you'll find that the reason for what you are concerned about here is something based on our desire that the Bible and the Christian faith is not gagged.


Bless you ....><>
Hi, Br. Bear. Always good to see you. I
Am doing well and sincerely hope you are the same.

I oppose censorship of any kind. Your remark prompts me to two questions.

1. Are you at all bothered by the implication that genuine Christianity is inherently and immutably conservative?

2. I’m not sure we are using the same meaning of the word “censorship.” Could you please cite a good example of actual censorship of either conservative or Christian speech in the US?
 
Active
Indeed.

But, then, what do you make of communities like Talk Jesus when they casually shackle conservatism with Christianity as though they share an identity that is an unremarkable and understood fact of reality?
I admit, I have found biblically based spiritual help here; usually by just a scripture or two that I needed. It is never based on some political OPINION one may have lol.

I am glad that I have seen the evils of "my" ex-party. Most act as if they are blameless and their party is right on everything. I am glad I am not that blind to that and no longer yelling across the isle as if its something honorable to defend.

As for the others on there? I am not advising anything, but the peace I have found along the way of all of this, I would definitely wish for all.

Am I making sense, lol?
 
Member
I admit, I have found biblically based spiritual help here; usually by just a scripture or two that I needed. It is never based on some political OPINION one may have lol.

I am glad that I have seen the evils of "my" ex-party. Most act as if they are blameless and their party is right on everything. I am glad I am not that blind to that and no longer yelling across the isle as if its something honorable to defend.

As for the others on there? I am not advising anything, but the peace I have found along the way of all of this, I would definitely wish for all.

Am I making sense, lol?
Most excellent sense, Mister. Thank you.
 
Similar threads

Similar threads

Top