“Bringing Me into Captivity”

[NetChaplain]

There are usually at least two schools of thought concerning every issue and it has been said that any doctrine can seem to be established on part of Scripture, but the truth is established on the whole. Romans Seven is what I like to consider as the pinnacle-doctrine in spiritual-growth teaching concerning the condition of the believer.

The two schools of thought concerning Paul’s discloser are in the concept that he is either referencing his condition as a regenerate or as he was unregenerate. I believe the most significant exegetical practice when considering his discloser is to determine if what he was instructing would even be possible to know and divulge by an unregenerate man, e.g. would a natural (unregenerate) man even desire to “delight” himself in “God” (v 22)?

Unless you’re an “Eradicatonist” who believes “crucified” means dead and gone concerning the “old man” (Rom. 6:6), you would realize Scripture teaches the believer is not void of sinning (1 John 1:8), which is reasonably so when considering the existential (continued) existence of the “old man” (sin nature), which conversely so, one could not sin in the absence of the sin nature.

I believe the crux-issue concerning sinning is that one who is born again does not sin willingly, which means it is against his desire; unlike the natural man who desires to sin willingly. This is the central-teaching concerning the meaning of “captivity” (Rom 7:22). He who willingly sins is not a captive to it because he does so agreeably within his desire and he who sins unwillingly is captive to it because he does so disagreeably outside his desire.

This could describe the believer as a “free-captive”; free from the guilt and rule of sin—while captive to the wrongs done by the indwelling of his sin nature. To be ruled by the sin nature is to make it the desire you are after, which is not the situation of the believer, who is caused by the Spirit to be after the things of God (Gal. 5:17).

Romans Eight is a description of the condition of two different types of people; those who are “after” the sinful nature (flesh) and those who are after the Spirit of God. Here also is another central-teaching to understanding that “no man can serve two masters,” nor “can a stream bring forth both bitter and sweet water.” You’re either “carnally minded” or “spiritually minded”. One who is not born again cannot become spiritually minded, “Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be” (v 7). Likewise, one who is born again cannot become carnally minded, because he is “not in the flesh (after the sinful nature) but in the Spirit” (v 9).

 

[james1523]

1 Corinthians 3:1-4
New King James Version (NKJV)

[h=3]Sectarianism Is Carnal[/h]3 And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ. 2 I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able; 3 for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like meremen? 4 For when one says, “I am of Paul,” and another, “I am of Apollos,” are you not carnal?

 

[NetChaplain]

Sectarianism Is Carnal

Not sure what you mean here James.

 

[Barny]

Unless you’re an “Eradicatonist” who believes “crucified” means dead and gone concerning the “old man” (Rom. 6:6), you would realize Scripture teaches the believer is not void of sinning (1 John 1:8), which is reasonably so when considering the existential (continued) existence of the “old man” (sin nature), which conversely so, one could not sin in the absence of the sin nature.

I believe the crux-issue concerning sinning is that one who is born again does not sin willingly, which means it is against his desire; unlike the natural man who desires to sin willingly. This is the central-teaching concerning the meaning of “captivity” (Rom 7:22). He who willingly sins is not a captive to it because he does so agreeably within his desire and he who sins unwillingly is captive to it because he does so disagreeably outside his desire.

This could describe the believer as a “free-captive”; free from the guilt and rule of sin—while captive to the wrongs done by the indwelling of his sin nature. To be ruled by the sin nature is to make it the desire you are after, which is not the situation of the believer, who is caused by the Spirit to be after the things of God (Gal. 5:17).

Romans Eight is a description of the condition of two different types of people; those who are “after” the sinful nature (flesh) and those who are after the Spirit of God. Here also is another central-teaching to understanding that “no man can serve two masters,” nor “can a stream bring forth both bitter and sweet water.” You’re either “carnally minded” or “spiritually minded”. One who is not born again cannot become spiritually minded, “Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be” (v 7). Likewise, one who is born again cannot become carnally minded, because he is “not in the flesh (after the sinful nature) but in the Spirit” (v 9).

Hi NetChaplain,

It's interesting on forums to see the various new labels that are used to describe schools of thought.
Here you speak about "Eradicationists" being those who believe the old man is dead, Rom 6:6. I would think all believers then would be "Eradicationists".
And remember, we walk by faith.

You speak of Christians still sinning, quoting 1John 1:8, in support .But, the context of 1John 1, shows that it refers to non-believers. Note how it "bears witness" and "declares" "eternal life" so that others "may also have fellowship" " with the Father and His Son, Jesus Christ".

Also consider what sin is and whether it applies to believers.Some examples of God's definitions of sin:
1: Transgression of the law, 1John 3:4.
2:Unbelief in Jesus, John 16:9.
3: Unrighteousness, 1John 5:17.

So how can somebody sin?

1: If you bring yourself under the law for righteousness then you make yourself a transgressor/Sinner, Gal 2:18. This is because the law requires perfect obedience, James 2:10. And under the law we see that all the world becomes guilty before God, Rom 3:19

2: Unbelief in Jesus results in such persons being unrighteous. Such people are in rebellion against God refusing to submit to His righteousness.

3: To be unrighteous is sin.
But if we believe in Jesus, then our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5. So, we cannot be charged with sin, Rom 8:33.
And anyone who rejects righteousness by faith and instead judges righteousness by the law, then such are unrighteous and sinners.

I hope you can see how righteousness, believing in Jesus and sinlessness are all linked.

Whereas unrighteousness, sin, the law and unbelief are all linked.

You spoke about willful sin. No doubt you refer to Heb 10:26. And this speaks of those who received the knowledge of the truth (the gospel of grace) but rejected this and turned back to willful sin, which is turning back to the law for righteousness and are thus found to be transgressor/Sinners, Gal 2:18. Such are in the sin of unbelief.

 

[NetChaplain]

Here you speak about "Eradicationists" being those who believe the old man is dead, Rom 6:6. I would think all believers then would be "Eradicationists".

Most do not understand that the "old man" is the old nature, or original nature--which is the source of our sin. It is written that we were crucified and died, but nowhere is it written that the old man was crucified and died. We died to it but it is not dead to us, rather it is enhanced in the believer due to it being identified to us. Absence of the sin nature would mean sinlessness, a false concept which conflicts with 1 John 1:8 and the whole of Scripture and if you think about it, the Spirit wouldn't be continually opposing it in us (Gal 5:170.

With that being said, I do believe you're sincere in perusing truth, but all concepts must be Scriptural compliant, which concerning the death of our old man, is nonexistent in Scripture.

 

[DHC]

Most do not understand that the "old man" is the old nature, or original nature--which is the source of our sin. It is written that we were crucified and died, but nowhere is it written that the old man was crucified and died. We died to it but it is not dead to us, rather it is enhanced in the believer due to it being identified to us. Absence of the sin nature would mean sinlessness, a false concept which conflicts with 1 John 1:8 and the whole of Scripture and if you think about it, the Spirit wouldn't be continually opposing it in us (Gal 5:170.
With that being said, I do believe you're sincere in perusing truth, but all concepts must be Scriptural compliant, which concerning the death of our old man, is nonexistent in Scripture.

Hello NetChaplain.

Good posts at times, though on this one you might
wan't to read the following;

Romans 6
5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly
we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection,
6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin
might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.

 

[james1523]

Not sure what you mean here James.

1 Cor 3:1-4 , says sectarianism is carnal. "I follow Paul, I follow whoever". Is carnal. Let us not presume that carnality is only things like lust, fornication, lies, gossip, it is even saying we follow a particular leader or denomination or sect, is also carnal. A truly spiritual person sees themselves and every other believer as just a brother in Christ.
For when one says, “I am of Paul,” and another, “I am of Apollos,” are you not carnal?

You said " one who is born again cannot become carnally minded". But 1 Cor 3:1-4 disproves this.. they were born again believers, in the church, but still carnal. They had not advanced and grown spiritually. Carnality is really just the first stage in spiritual growth, God brings us out of it within a couple of years, if we are willing. When one says "I am of the Lutheran church", or "I am of the Catholic church", they are carnal. You may have been saved for 20,30,80 years.. if you say you follow someone like this you are still carnally minded, still a babe in Christ. Imagine staying a baby in Christ for 80 years of our life? We have no time left to make up for it.

 

[Barny]

Most do not understand that the "old man" is the old nature, or original nature--which is the source of our sin. It is written that we were crucified and died, but nowhere is it written that the old man was crucified and died. We died to it but it is not dead to us, rather it is enhanced in the believer due to it being identified to us. Absence of the sin nature would mean sinlessness, a false concept which conflicts with 1 John 1:8 and the whole of Scripture and if you think about it, the Spirit wouldn't be continually opposing it in us (Gal 5:170.

With that being said, I do believe you're sincere in perusing truth, but all concepts must be Scriptural compliant, which concerning the death of our old man, is nonexistent in Scripture.

You said " Absence of the sin nature would mean sinlessness, a false concept which conflicts with 1 John 1:8"

I know you have seen the many scriptures I have quoted that contradicts your claim above.
As you rely on your understanding of 1John 1:8 how do you make this fit 1John 3:6-9 which contradicts your claim with 1John 1:8?

And note Gal 5:16, "walk in the Spirit..."
And note that Christians are in the Spirit, Rom 8:9.

Christians believe in Jesus and it's this that shows we are led by the Spirit.

But those under the law are walking according to the flesh seeking to establish righteousness by works of the law.
Consider the Galatians, Gal 3:3
Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

 

[NetChaplain]

our old man was crucified with Him

Crucified, but has not "died". Christ was crucified and died. It is written we with Him were crucified (Gal 2:20) and died (Col 3:3). It is also written "our old man is crucified" (Rom 6:6), but nowhere is it written the old man died.

"Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with Him, that the 'body of sin' might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin (Rom 6:6).

What has been "destroyed" from the "old man" is the law or principle of guilt and dominion of its "body of sin."(not the physical body but the group (body) of its sinful members): "Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry" (Col 3:5).

 

[NetChaplain]

To be "carnal minded" is to desire all things all that a natural man (unregenerate) would desire, "Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be" (Rom 8:7); also, "to be carnally minded is death" (8:6), which is unfitting and non-descriptive of a "babe in Christ." Many Christians have carnal ways, which many grow out of, but none completely so, because even though regenerated, we still have some carnality (not perfected--Rom 7:14) from the sin nature.

A believer can and is, to some degree carnal, which is not the same as carnal minded.

 

[NetChaplain]

You said " Absence of the sin nature would mean sinlessness, a false concept which conflicts with 1 John 1:8"

I know you have seen the many scriptures I have quoted that contradicts your claim above.
As you rely on your understanding of 1 John 1:8 ow do you make this fit 1 John 3:6-9 hich contradicts your claim with 1 John 1:8

This is from my post "The Saint and the sinner": To have the sin nature (“old man”) is to have sin within, which complies with 1 John 1:8. In 3:9, “His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin,” can refer to John in his “new man” meaning Christ’s seed or if you will, His “divine nature,” of which we are ”partakers” (2 Pet 1:4). This can collate with Paul’s claim in Romans 7:17, 20 that “it is no longer I who do it,” meaning he in his new man is not participating, but rather the wrong being done is by the “sin that dwells in me.”

 

[Barny]

This is from my post "The Saint and the sinner": To have the sin nature (“old man”) is to have sin within, which complies with 1 John 1:8. In 3:9, “His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin,” can refer to John in his “new man” meaning Christ’s seed or if you will, His “divine nature,” of which we are ”partakers” (2 Pet 1:4). This can collate with Paul’s claim in Romans 7:17, 20that “it is no longer I who do it,” meaning he in his new man is not participating, but rather the wrong being done is by the “sin that dwells in me.”

Regarding 1John 1:8 and 1John 3:9, what definition, from scripture, do you apply to the "sin" spoken of here?

And Rom 7:4,6; says we're dead to the law/delivered from the law. We see this also confirmed in Rom 7:23,24. So as believers are now walking in the Spirit how can they then sin?
How shall we that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Rom 6:2

 

[NetChaplain]

How shall we that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Rom 6:2

Just dead to sin's guilt and dominion, not free from its presence (source = "old man"), which is just crucified, not killed.

The hat definition may be brief but very instructional and not readily understood.

 

[james1523]

To be "carnal minded" is to desire all things all that a natural man (unregenerate) would desire, "Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be" (Rom 8:7); also, "to be carnally minded is death" (8:6), which is unfitting and non-descriptive of a "babe in Christ." Many Christians have carnal ways, which many grow out of, but none completely so, because even though regenerated, we still have some carnality (not perfected--Rom 7:14) from the sin nature.

A believer can and is, to some degree carnal, which is not the same as carnal minded.

We are what we eat. To be carnally minded is to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.. to be spiritually minded is to eat from the tree of life who is Christ. I see that "setting our mind" on the flesh is not having occasional thoughts of lust, or envy, or anger.. we all have these things. It is whatever we indulge in and eat.. whatever we take, other than Christ, into ourselves that becomes part of us. Whether it is lust, or envy or anger, whether it is religion or the Law. There is also the saying "we become what we behold". Perhaps I am a Christian for 10 years, I have some back problems.. I go to yoga class, I find it helps me.. sooner or later I am praising the yoga, thinking about it all the time, I cannot miss a class.. I have indulged and eaten of this thing, that has taken me away from Christ. For this reason I have become carnally minded, resulting in spiritual death. Spiritual death is separation from God in our experience.

 

[DHC]

Crucified, but has not "died". Christ was crucified and died. It is written we with Him were crucified (Gal 2:20) and died (Col 3:3). It is also written "our old man is crucified" (Rom 6:6), but nowhere is it written the old man died.

"Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with Him, that the 'body of sin' might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin (Rom 6:6).

What has been "destroyed" from the "old man" is the law or principle of guilt and dominion of its "body of sin."(not the physical body but the group (body) of its sinful members): "Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry" (Col 3:5).

Hello NetChaplain, grateful for the reply.

I must disagree with the following;

"destroyed" from the "old man" is the law or principle of guilt and dominion of its "body of sin."

Have a read of the following verses, they may cause an update of your
theology;

Galatians 2:20
I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live,
but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh
I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself
up for me.

Galatians 3:3
Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being
perfected by the flesh?

Galatians 5:16
But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire
of the flesh.

Galatians 5:24
Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with
its passions and desires.

Colossians 2:11
and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made
without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the
circumcision of Christ;

1 John 3
4 Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.
5 You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin.
6 No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him.

 

[NetChaplain]

"To be 'carnal minded' is to desire all things all that a natural man (unregenerate) would desire."

What I meant by this is that one born again cannot not be "carnal minded." Romans 8 does not depict the scenario that a Christian can live "after the flesh," but is describing that one who lives after the flesh is carnal minded, which is a non-Christian. It is contrasting the condition between a regenerate and an unregenerate.

 

[NetChaplain]

"Living after the flesh" does not mean we no longer sin and are without sin. To live after that flesh means sinning is what you desire to do, unlike one who is "not after the flesh." In an unregenerate state, sinning is the choice for the course of life and is even pursued by the natural man.

 

[Barny]

The hat definition may be brief but very instructional and not readily understood.

Thanks for the humorous spin in your reply to my question.

Now....back to my question.

What definition from scripture do you apply to verses such as 1John 1:8.
(There, I put the scripture reference at the end of the sentence so that it won't chop off the following word when posted)

 

[Thorwald]

Most do not understand that the "old man" is the old nature, or original nature--which is the source of our sin. It is written that we were crucified and died, but nowhere is it written that the old man was crucified and died. We died to it but it is not dead to us, rather it is enhanced in the believer due to it being identified to us. Absence of the sin nature would mean sinlessness, a false concept which conflicts with 1 John 1:8 and the whole of Scripture and if you think about it, the Spirit wouldn't be continually opposing it in us (Gal 5:170.

With that being said, I do believe you're sincere in perusing truth, but all concepts must be Scriptural compliant, which concerning the death of our old man, is nonexistent in Scripture.

We find that Christ chastises His sheep. Is this not the means by which His sheep are penalized for their sins after becoming saved? Satan can tempt us 'to the breaking point'. Depending on what the temptation is, we may sin (fall prey to the temptation). Christ knows this. It doesn't mean, however, that we have totally 'returned to our old ways & habits'. Even the 'elect' will be tempted, and may sin.

 

[NetChaplain]

What definition from scripture do you apply to verses such as 1John 1:8.

The sin John is describing is the same for the saved an unsaved; the sin nature (the old man).