Brightfame52 said:

"KingJ,

Your response is the ultimate white flag in this debate. You have spent more than half of your post complaining about 'AI,' 'loaded prompts,' and 'circular reasoning' because you are completely terrified of the direct, textual questions I have laid before you. You have not answered a single one.
Instead, you have doubled down on your shocking statements, openly admitted to Pelagianism, and attempted to separate the cross from the final judicial verdict. Let the unyielding text of Scripture completely flatten your defense:

1. The Blasphemous Escape Hatch: "Escaping Condemnation" Without Christ

In your panic to defend your previous heresy, you have actually made it worse. You write: 'I did not say man can save himself from sin... I said man can respond to God's call and thereby escape condemnation.'

This is a theological catastrophe. You have just claimed that an unregenerate sinner can escape judicial condemnation by their own autonomous power before Christ saves them from sin.

Look at the text of Romans 8:1: 'There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus.'

Scripture knows absolutely nothing of a category of people who 'escape condemnation' by their own free-will response while still waiting for Jesus to deal with their sin. Condemnation is the legal penalty for sin. If a man can escape condemnation by his own response, then he has legally justified himself before the court of heaven. You have completely bypassed the blood of Christ and made man his own legal savior.

2. The Direct Textual Proof for Justification Before Faith

You repeatedly scream for a direct passage that teaches justification before faith, claiming I am only using 'deductions.' Let's look at the absolute, unyielding grammar of Romans 5:9-10:

• Verse 9: 'Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.'
• Verse 10: 'For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son...'

Look at the text, KingJ. Paul explicitly parallels 'justified by his blood' in verse 9 with 'reconciled to God by the death of his Son' in verse 10. They are the exact same legal reality.

The verb is katēllagēmen ('we were reconciled')—an Aorist Indicative Passive. The passive voice means we received the verdict; the aorist tense means it is a past, completed, punctuated historical fact. Paul anchors this completed legal verdict to 'the death of his Son'—which happened in 33 AD. And he explicitly states this happened 'while we were enemies.'

An unregenerate enemy is not a believer. Therefore, Paul explicitly states that the individual elect were legally reconciled and justified at the cross 2,000 years before they ever possessed faith. If justification only happens at the moment of faith, you are calling Paul a liar. You are forcing a past-tense historical action in 33 AD to wait for a 21st-century human choice to become real.

3. You Confess the Core of the Pelagian Heresy

You write: 'Being a sinner does not mean that a person is incapable of repenting or responding to God's call... Your theology makes that genuine response impossible...'

You have openly confessed the Pelagian heresy. You are claiming that a natural, unregenerate sinner has the inherent, independent spiritual capability to love, obey, and respond to God.

Let the word of God flatline your view of human capability:

• Romans 8:7: 'Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.'
• 1 Corinthians 2:14: 'But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God... neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.'
• John 6:44: 'No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him...'

Scripture states the natural man cannot submit, cannot know spiritual things, and cannot come. They are vitally dead in trespasses and sins (Ephesians 2:1). By claiming they are fully capable of responding on their own, you are denying the total depravity of the Fall. You are forcing God to give faith based on a superior capability hidden inside the sinner's heart.

4. The Accusation That Makes You the Judge of the Potter

You explicitly write that if God only regenerates the elect, it implies 'pure partiality by God. That if true makes Him a monster.'
This is the exact, carnal arrogance that Paul anticipated and crushed 2,000 years ago. When the objector in Romans 9:19 makes the exact same complaint you are making ('Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?'), look at how Paul answers. He doesn't apologize or say 'Oh, God gives everyone an equal free-will chance!'
Paul rebukes your very mindset:


You call God a 'monster' if He discriminates in mercy. But God is a holy Judge. Every single human being deserves hell. If God leaves a sinner in their rebellion and sends them to hell, He is acting in strict, impartial justice. If He sovereignly chooses to quicken a vessel of mercy, He is acting in unconditional grace. God does not owe salvation to a single rebel. Your quarrel is not with Calvinism; your quarrel is with the Potter of Romans 9.

The Bottom Line

You can continue to cry about 'AI' to distract the readers, but you cannot escape the devastating question you have run away from for five rounds: Who made you to differ? (1 Corinthians 4:7).

If God provides the exact same drawing, the exact same grace, and the exact same call to both the saved man and the damned man, and the saved man is in heaven because he chose to respond while the other didn't, then the ultimate, decisive pivot point of salvation is man's choice, man's capability, and man's heart.

Your system allows the creature to boast in the courtroom of heaven: 'Christ made it possible, but I am here because I used my free will better than the guy in hell.' My theology leaves the glory entirely with the Lamb who successfully, legally, and completely redeemed His peculiar people from all iniquity (Titus 2:14) while they were still helpless enemies. Answer the text, KingJ, and stop hiding behind a smoke screen."

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Twistie said:

What is the point your trying to be a right about??? Is it you think Abba favors one over another?
Thanks!

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1. The Blasphemous Escape Hatch: "Escaping Condemnation" Without Christ

In your panic to defend your previous heresy, you have actually made it worse. You write: 'I did not say man can save himself from sin... I said man can respond to God's call and thereby escape condemnation.'

This is a theological catastrophe. You have just claimed that an unregenerate sinner can escape judicial condemnation by their own autonomous power before Christ saves them from sin.

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joestue said:

yes actually. (i am not a calvanist)

God favors some people over the unrepentant.

and i suspect you didn't even read his first point:



the logic is quite simple.
God initiates with sinners.

and i prefer a third approach:
there is an angel of repentance Uriel who does the work before they become born again.
The Holy Spirit can/will continue doing the work of sanctification after they have had their conscience pricked, if they receive it.

in other words people who have had conviction of sin for years, don't turn to God. they also go to the grave.
and i suspect many are in this boat. they presume because they are convicted of sin, internally or externally maybe they don't even know, that they must be saved/born again/name written in the book of life.

I do not presume such things.

people can have conviction of sin and be called by God their entire life and at the end of the day "i never knew you" because they never did relent of their striving against God and actually have that "imtimate" relationship, which is what that word "knew" means.

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Twistie said:

For God does not show favoritism.

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KingJ said:

Man can save himself from hell by responding to God. Only Jesus can save him from his sin.

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joestue said:

but what does that mean....?


my fmr girlfriend from 2017, i have tried praying for her and i'm concerned she indeed blasphmed and is unforgivable.

this is not the case for anyone else i know at this time, so, where God sets the standards... that's always been news to me. some its higher than others, some lower.

but as for brightflame, i have yet to see him personally accuse anyone, unlike others here.

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Twistie said:

Lol man can not impress Abba thats just vain

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Twistie said:

Like i said i follow the Word not mans

His ways are not our ways our thinking cant even touch how He Fully rolls..

All is written one believes or dont believing tho is a verb not just a noun..

Hope alls well

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joestue said:

trying to figure out where you think i said that

what is the point?

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Twistie said:

Some follow man some lean or their own ways and some follow the Truth .

Thats it

Everything written one believes or dont

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joestue said:

ok?

so lets take your statement:
" Lol man can not impress Abba thats just vain "

So does that mean you should not even try to impress God?

if not, why not?

and what does a relationship with a person look like if you never even try to impress them?
do you mean "impress" in a carnal "look at me i'm special kind of way"

because that's not what anyone here is talking about.

even a 4 year old can take what they learned in school and try to impress their parents in righteous ways.

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joestue said:

" Lol man can not impress Abba thats just vain "

So does that mean you should not even try to impress God?

if not, why not?

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Twistie said:

There is no end of all the people, even of all that have been before them; they also who came after shall not rejoice in him. Surely this also is vanity and vexation of spirit.

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joestue said:

i'm somewhat concerned this is sort of a calvan vs armenianism debate already:

let me summarize:

One person says 4th graders should not try to impress their parents. remain humble. you know nothing.
Another person says parents should not be impressed by 4th graders flexing their knowledge/experience, even if it is legitimate.
Another says parents should not be proud of their 4th graders at all. they know nothing.
Another ( my mom, quoting her grandmother who raised her in the 60's in Scranton Pennsylvania) says:

"We didn't even name our children till they were 5, because half of them would die on you"

so..

which is it?

does your God refuse to name you because you're going to die on him?


kinda worried you're going to pick the last of the options i gave...

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Twistie said:

Im thinking you think your something above others from the way it sounds..

Abbas way are not mans n vice versa so idk what ya even trying to get at frfr

Are you comparing man of flesh to the Holy One w⁠(⁠°⁠ｏ⁠°⁠)⁠w

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joestue said:

really have no idea what you're getting at.


you have probably hundreds of post on this forum that basically say the same thing:

God's ways are higher than mans ways read the bible don't listen to other men God only knows best

and what that comes across as:

"you don't know anything don't try to even figure it out"

well...

God seems to indeed trust me with figuring stuff out. its really not that complicated. and its neither calvan nor armenain

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Twistie said:

Im thinking you think your something above others from the way it sounds..

Abbas way are not mans n vice versa so idk what ya even trying to get at frfr

Are you comparing man of flesh to the Holy One w⁠(⁠°⁠ｏ⁠°⁠)⁠w

My granpa was a hog raiser in Scranton back in the day..

The ski lights looked so beautiful from his back yard i could see them..

Are you saying you dont believe the Word just the part that fit your beliefs?

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Twistie said:

What is there to figure out one either believes or don't its really that simple..

People can twist the Word cherry pick to fit their beliefs but the Word He aint changing frfr..

I know Whom I believe n its not man..

(⁠ﾉ⁠*⁠0⁠*⁠)⁠ﾉ

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joestue said:

do i need to dumb it down further and replace the 4th grader with the christian and replace the word parent with God?

can you not see the analogy?

man cannot impress God.
God cannot be impressed with sinners
Jesus forgave sinners
Jesus might be able to be impressed with non sinners
Jesus might show favoritism we don't know, he sure spent a lot of time with John, but rebuked Peter a few times.
God shows no favoritism, therefore Jesus loves James as much as John, and that's why he had Paul write half the new testamate.

instead what we see is Jesus had a classical human relationships. close friends with 3 people, a broader group of 12, a loose association with 72, and some occasional interactions with the masses.


if there is nothing to figure out, why are you wasting time here?

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joestue said:

man cannot save himself from hell man.

Jesus alone was/is give power to forgive sin, and that sin being forgiven delivers you from judgement followed by hell.

now there is room for some of your sin to be forgiven (by those in Christ who interceeded for you, as Jesus delegated that authority to us john 20:23) and you still go to hell but incur a lesser judgement.

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Twistie said:

My brothers and sisters, believers in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ must not show favoritism.

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KingJ said:

Well. Nice to know you’re a Calvinist who has been hiding in the shadows. A lot of our past discussions suddenly make sense.

I gave you Scripture to support my statement. Why don’t you deal with it directly instead of simply giving me your opinion? Oh wait. I know why. Assumptions and opinions seem to be Calvinism 101.

You really need to learn how to use the “quote” function and actually respond to the Scripture that has been provided.

You want to mock others for having a low IQ. Yet you are displaying your own intellectual shortcomings in spades.

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KingJ said:

Well. Nice to know you’re a Calvinist who has been hiding in the shadows. A lot of our past discussions suddenly make sense.

I gave you Scripture to support my statement. Why don’t you deal with it directly instead of simply giving me your opinion? Oh wait. I know why. Assumptions and opinions seem to be Calvinism 101.

You really need to learn how to use the “quote” function and actually respond to the Scripture that has been provided.

You want to mock others for having a low IQ. Yet you are displaying your own intellectual shortcomings in spades.

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joestue said:

still trying to get a deffinition out of you on that.

you are the one mocking

it is not a calvanist position to say that Jesus alone was given all power and authority under heaven {to forgive sin}

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