KingJ said:

What are God's plans for children and the mentally disabled?

I have been thinking about this subject quite a bit recently. It has also been raised in a few recent discussions. I would be interested to hear how other Christians understand it.

I personally believe that children and the mentally disabled who die are presently with the Lord. While I do not believe Scripture states this explicitly, passages such as 2 Samuel 12:23, Matthew 19:14, and Deuteronomy 1:39 lead me to conclude that God graciously receives those who die without the capacity to make an informed moral decision. I further believe that, because God is impartial, they will one day be given the same opportunity to make an informed choice and be tested before the final judgment.

God, being perfectly just Job 34:12, good Psalm 136:1, and impartial Rom 2:11, will provide a fair opportunity for children and those who are mentally incapable of making an informed decision regarding Christ. Passages such as Deuteronomy 1:39 and Numbers 14:29 suggest that God distinguishes between those who are accountable and those who are not. Interestingly, Numbers 14:29 is the only passage in all of Scripture that appears to place a specific age boundary on accountability, as God judged those twenty years old and upward while sparing the younger generation.

I believe the Millennium is the perfect time and setting for children and the mentally disabled who died without the capacity to make an informed decision regarding Christ.

I do not believe those who survive the Tribulation will continue into the Millennium unless they are children and mentally disabled. Jesus described the Tribulation as the most severe period of judgment the world has ever seen or ever will see (Matthew 24:21), which leads me to view it as one of God's greatest separations of the wicked from the righteous in all of history. Nobody will be on the fence at the end of it.

Because of that, I believe the Millennium is the perfect time and setting. Under Christ's righteous rule they would have the opportunity to learn, grow, and become accountable. Revelation 20:3 and 20:7-9 teach that Satan will be released at the end of the thousand years for a final testing of mankind. Since God allowed Adam and Eve to make a genuine choice in the presence of temptation, it seems consistent with His impartial character that these individuals would also receive their opportunity before the final judgment.

I realize this view is inferential and that Scripture does not explicitly lay out every detail. Nevertheless, I find it difficult to reconcile God's impartiality with the idea that some people would never receive an opportunity to make a conscious and informed choice regarding Him.

What do you think? Are there other Scriptures that shed light on the fate of children and the mentally disabled?

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Bill said:

May Jesus fill us with his love and wisdom.

Many years ago, the Lord led me to learn about my brothers and sisters in the Protestant churches. Now I didn't know if it was all right by Catholic standards not to go to Catholic mass too, so I ended up going to the Saturday mass which is reserved for people who are working on Sundays. And in a sense I was working for the Lord because he wanted me to get to know the other churches. So every Sunday for years I would go to something else. I went to numerous Baptist, Church of God, Assembly of God, you name it I probably want to it

And over the years I saw that there were many different ways in which everyone views things, for instance, there are some groups that feel that children have the devil in them until they receive Christ. ( personally I don't agree with that because of what Jesus says in the scripture about children)

I do believe personally that children are considered innocent until they are not innocent. And I know in the Jewish culture I believe that the child becomes a man at a certain age I can't remember the name for this change but I think they're like 12 years old or something. And we can see this also in the judicial system in America. Because they also charge children that are about 13 years older more as adults depending on the crimes they commit. And so it's not really a thing about ages it is about mental capacity. For a child to do something heinous as murdering who is maybe 13 or 14 years old and you see that they have well planned out method of killing.

I understand this is a rough example but it is good example as far as trying to understand that just because a person is in their early teens, does not mean they should not be held accountable for thier actions.

Going back to the way that God judges children. I think for the fact that God has us raise our children the way that he teaches us to do this, is also the way in which he judges children. And I have to believe that it's based on comprehension of a child, knowing what is right and wrong. Just like I described above about early teens.

Of course it's all speculation but it's just my thoughts.

As for people who are mentally handicapped. For the vast majority of those who are mentally happy I find that their sense of Love is beyond virtually everyone else. And I think the suffering that they experience in their lifetime from people around them the way they're treated they may not even know that they're treated harshly but it doesn't really matter. I think that they are God's gift to humanity, that they suffer for us for our sins. Even though they themselves may never have volunteered for it, but God calls them to be this way. They are actually not there for themselves, but they are there for us to find humility, to find compassion and to deepen our own love for God

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KingJ said:

Jewish tradition is interesting as there would be a level of guidance by prophets inspired by God.

Here is what I could find.

Age	Jewish Understanding
Birth–12	Child is under parental responsibility; not fully obligated to keep the commandments.
12 (girls) / 13 (boys)	Personally obligated to observe the Torah (Bat/Bar Mitzvah).
Around 20	Sometimes viewed in rabbinic literature as the age of full maturity for certain forms of divine or communal judgment.

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KingJ said:

What are God's plans for children and the mentally disabled?

I have been thinking about this subject quite a bit recently. It has also been raised in a few recent discussions. I would be interested to hear how other Christians understand it.

I personally believe that children and the mentally disabled who die are presently with the Lord. While I do not believe Scripture states this explicitly, passages such as 2 Samuel 12:23, Matthew 19:14, and Deuteronomy 1:39 lead me to conclude that God graciously receives those who die without the capacity to make an informed moral decision. I further believe that, because God is impartial, they will one day be given the same opportunity to make an informed choice and be tested before the final judgment.

God, being perfectly just Job 34:12, good Psalm 136:1, and impartial Rom 2:11, will provide a fair opportunity for children and those who are mentally incapable of making an informed decision regarding Christ. Passages such as Deuteronomy 1:39 and Numbers 14:29 suggest that God distinguishes between those who are accountable and those who are not. Interestingly, Numbers 14:29 is the only passage in all of Scripture that appears to place a specific age boundary on accountability, as God judged those twenty years old and upward while sparing the younger generation.

I believe the Millennium is the perfect time and setting for children and the mentally disabled who died without the capacity to make an informed decision regarding Christ.

I do not believe those who survive the Tribulation will continue into the Millennium unless they are children and mentally disabled. Jesus described the Tribulation as the most severe period of judgment the world has ever seen or ever will see (Matthew 24:21), which leads me to view it as one of God's greatest separations of the wicked from the righteous in all of history. Nobody will be on the fence at the end of it.

Because of that, I believe the Millennium is the perfect time and setting. Under Christ's righteous rule they would have the opportunity to learn, grow, and become accountable. Revelation 20:3 and 20:7-9 teach that Satan will be released at the end of the thousand years for a final testing of mankind. Since God allowed Adam and Eve to make a genuine choice in the presence of temptation, it seems consistent with His impartial character that these individuals would also receive their opportunity before the final judgment.

I realize this view is inferential and that Scripture does not explicitly lay out every detail. Nevertheless, I find it difficult to reconcile God's impartiality with the idea that some people would never receive an opportunity to make a conscious and informed choice regarding Him.

What do you think? Are there other Scriptures that shed light on the fate of children and the mentally disabled?

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Bill said:

It doesn't explain your position and how you come to the conclusion of it.

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KingJ said:

What statement would you like me to better explain?

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Bill said:

May Jesus fill us with his love and wisdom

I want to take note on something for you. The innocent are always with Christ. When they die, they are with Jesus. This includes the handicap, young children, and those who are aborted from all around the world.

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KingJ said:

Completely agree. The issue is not where they currently are, but whether they remain there or not.

Using children as an example, will they remain as innocent children forever, or will they grow? If they grow up, then surely, if God is impartial, He would need to ensure they are given the opportunity to be tested by the devil, just as everyone else has been.

Can they simply remain in heaven forever without ever being tested?

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joestue said:

Bill you remind me of a man i met online in 2012. He went by the name "blackholedivestment".

He had a 4 day long out of body experience, his spirit was seeing america from several thousand feet from God's point of view, while his body and mind rode his motorcycle from coast to coast.

I would describe him as cleanup crew. He got to tell people their final warnings to turn to God or not. Tough stuff.

I pressed him for details on that motorcycle trip and he said maybe 1 or 2% of the people he saw had the Holy Spirit in them.

That number matches a friends dream from decades ago. In the dream my friend was a demon, on the run from God and from the people who had God in them (which were few). He found a place to hide, in a friend of his in real life.

When he shared this dream with that man, it was enough to inspire him to become a christian.

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joestue said:

Bill you remind me of a man i met online in 2012. He went by the name "blackholedivestment".

He had a 4 day long out of body experience, his spirit was seeing america from several thousand feet from God's point of view, while his body and mind rode his motorcycle from coast to coast.

I would describe him as cleanup crew. He got to tell people their final warnings to turn to God or not. Tough stuff.

I pressed him for details on that motorcycle trip and he said maybe 1 or 2% of the people he saw had the Holy Spirit in them.

That number matches a friends dream from decades ago. In the dream my friend was a demon, on the run from God and from the people who had God in them (which were few). He found a place to hide, in a friend of his in real life.

When he shared this dream with that man, it was enough to inspire him to become a christian.

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joestue said:

Bill you remind me of a man i met online in 2012. He went by the name "blackholedivestment".

He had a 4 day long out of body experience, his spirit was seeing america from several thousand feet from God's point of view, while his body and mind rode his motorcycle from coast to coast.

I would describe him as cleanup crew. He got to tell people their final warnings to turn to God or not. Tough stuff.

I pressed him for details on that motorcycle trip and he said maybe 1 or 2% of the people he saw had the Holy Spirit in them.

That number matches a friends dream from decades ago. In the dream my friend was a demon, on the run from God and from the people who had God in them (which were few). He found a place to hide, in a friend of his in real life.

When he shared this dream with that man, it was enough to inspire him to become a christian.

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Bill said:

May Jesus fill us with his love and wisdom

That my friend you'll have to talk to God about. I have no clue

You can speculate, and it's all a matter of what you want to believe with your faith. It would be the same question as what are we going to do once we're in heaven. And there's all different concepts on that too.

In my logical mind, I think to myself that God created us with a mind and with a desire to explore in a desire to learn. I can't believe it ends with just death. I think learning can go on forever, and exploring and everything. Because God is eternal too. And it'll take Eternity for us to understand anything about God.

If this might help you though. And again I tell you that this takes faith. And I don't expect you to believe. I'm not trying to give you disclaimer I'm trying to help you to understand that this is my spirituality my experience. Not everyone is the same.

The Lord gives me the ability to go to heaven as often as I wish. I'm fairly talkative about everything, there is one thing that is unique at least with myself. I think I have a gift that the Lord has given to me which is that I do not have the draw to stay in heaven. Yeah you can call the kind of a strange gift, but seriously. God calls me to come to Heaven often almost daily during some months of the year. I'll be driving down the road with the semi and as I'm going down the road, He says to me come up here. So I'm still driving the semi but my spirit is with God the Father, in heaven, at the same time. I'm aware of what's going on in both places at the same time.

But what I've seen in heaven after talking with God the Father for whatever it is he calls me there for. What I've seen is a lot of different things. I've seen the City of God, or at least parts of it. I've seen the Great Throne room. Many people are always gathered there. In the city of God there's a beautiful ( I think it's called ) piazzo it's the floor of a good that really catches your attention. It's made out of these things that look like bricks but they're a variety of Hues of color and if you look at them on a side angle there's like a golden hue that emanates from them but if you're standing on top of them looking down each of them is a different color. And you can see right through them, you can see clouds below you. It's quite beautiful.

( if you're going to ask me if Heaven is in the clouds, I have no clue, it's just what I see spiritually. Of course you could say, that Jesus comes out of the clouds in the end days.)

When I'm in heaven there's a variety of other things that I see also. I know that there's three basic places of Heaven. There's the City of God which is quite a huge, then there's a land that reminds me of what America must have been before people ever set foot on it. But in this land that stretches on for forever, you'll see trails and many things that are basically fantasy come to reality. I have seen trees that talk. I've seen rocks that talk to. And yeah it's all pretty crazy stuff but you have to remember you're in heaven and anything's possible. In many of the pathways you'll find people walking. I have seen Paul the Apostle preaching and as he's preaching it's all new preaching new inspired speaking. And I've listened to him a few times and it's just really heavy teachings. There is usually a pretty good size group walking there listening to him speak as it's through the Holy Spirit.

You have to remember, that Paul the Apostle was filled with the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit has never left him even though he's in heaven. When the Holy Spirit enters you it's not entering your physical body it's entering your spiritual body. Physical body dies and goes back to dust. But the spiritual body if it's in the Lord, stays with God forever.

I think my favorite thing is watching my parents. Ever since the first day that they were in heaven together, it just makes me smile. I sneak up on them not letting them know I'm there and I sit and I watch them. Two children five years old roughly playing in the water splashing and playing. But as soon as they recognize that I am there suddenly there are two adults roughly in their 20s and 30s.

By the way for those of you who are reading us and are of Indian descent. I want to tell you a little bit about a friend of mine so I met only online. She was a granddaughter of a Medicine Woman. Who I could tell that the Holy Spirit was with. I told her through her great suffering with stage 4 cancer that she would be in heaven. And I told her that there was a white buffalo waiting for her. The White Buffalo was waiting for her so that she could ride it. She told me that she wasn't Worthy to ride any white buffalo but would feel great pride to see one in heaven. When she died I was in Toronto at the time. There were two white doves that landed on one mirror on my semi. They sat there for quite a long time I was parked in a rest area and I watched them and I knew they came from her. The next time after that I went to heaven I saw her riding on the back of the white buffalo.

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KingJ said:

I agree with your belief that we will continue to grow in heaven. That is logical and sound. We are creations made perfect to God (Heb. 10:14) but we will never be perfect like God (Mark 10:18).

The two items to consider that support my belief that you quoted are:

1. God brings the devil's reign to a complete and abrupt end at the end of the Millennium (Rev 20). It seems entirely logical that God would want all remaining untested humans to be tested before this occurs.

2. Nobody surviving the Tribulation will be "on the fence" and need to be ''re-tested''. All will be either saints or devils.

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