I like Glenn Beck, he is good at exposing hidden stuff which is good. He has publically apoligized for being wrong about Trump on some things which is good, because far too many people like to find fault with Trump without any real basis, they just dislike him and will believe ANY thing bad said about him as gospel. I am not sure about Glenn's spiritual relationship with Jesus, and I know that he at least used to be a mormon (LDS), which I consider a cult, but God is certainly using him to uncover a lot of truth that the evil people of this world want to be kept hidden.

KingJ said:

Fourth, Zacchaeus is not declared saved because he becomes poor, but because he demonstrates repentance. He restores what he defrauded and becomes generous. The emphasis is on a transformed heart, not on reaching a specific economic level. If salvation required poverty, Christ would have required him to give away everything, but He did not.

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I think you need to take the story of Zacchaeus in context with Christs other teachings in Lukes Gospel on wealth and riches. We've already discussed the story of the rich Ruler, Lukes version of the Sermon on the mount and Lazarus and the rich man. Here we have in Zacchaeus, the chief Publican, a rich man, a very rich man, and alls we know is that its only after he gives half of his wealth to the poor and pays back 4 fold anyone hes cheated that Christ pronounces "today has Salvation come to this house". And given the practice of the Publicans, which were those of extortion and theft, then giving back 4 fold to those he'd cheated together with the commitment to give half of his wealth to the poor would have left him almost, if not entirely penniless. So there we have it, 4 examples of Christ condemning the rich and the riches they possess.

And thats an important point to note, Christ makes no distinction between the possession of riches and our supposed attitude towards them, there is no reference to attitude, just the possession of riches is condemned, " DO NOT STORE UP TREASURE ON EARTH, ... FOR WHERE YOUR TREASURE IS YOUR HEART WILL BE ALSO", Christ is clearly saying there if you are rich then your heart is not with God but with your riches. In the parable of the Sower Christ talks of " the deceit of riches choking the word and preventing it from coming to fruition", and thats what many of us try to do, we try to justify what Christ says is unjustifiable, and in so doing show where our true allegiance lies, with our riches and not with Christ.

In James 5 1-5 its put even more forcibly, but the connection with Christs warning in Matthew 6 19-24 are clear to see where Christ talks of "not storing up treasure on Earth where Moth and rust do corrupt", "James 5, Now listen, you rich people, weep and wail because of the misery that is coming on you. 2;Your wealth has rotted, and moths have eaten your clothes. 3;Your gold and silver are corroded. Their corrosion will testify against you and eat your flesh like fire. You have hoarded wealth in the last days. 4;Look! The wages you failed to pay the workers who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord Almighty. 5;You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves in the day of slaughter". Again there is no distinction between the "Rich", they are ALL classified as one group and condemned as such.

KingJ said:

Fifth, your “fixed amount of resources” argument is not biblical and also not accurate in practice. Scripture never teaches that one person’s wealth automatically creates another’s poverty. Wealth can be gained through productivity, trade, and stewardship that benefits others. The Bible condemns oppression and exploitation, but it does not equate wealth itself with injustice.

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I didnt claim it was Biblical, just that the economics , the basic maths, are probably one of the underlying principles of why Christ condemns the Rich as a whole, As i previously said, at any moment in time there are a limited amount of resources in the world, if one individual, or group, or country, take more than their fair share then that leaves less to be divided amongst the rest. And yes wealth can be created, but if that wealth is then further accumulated by the rich and powerful as is the situation now, then the wealth of the few is directly responsible for the poverty of the masses. You cannot claim to "love God and your Neighbour as yourself" and to "treat others as you'd want to be treated " while they suffer and die in abject poverty while you live in wealth and comfort. Or as written in 1 John 3:17 " If anyone has material possessions and sees a brother or sister in need but has no pity on them, how can the love of God be in that person?",

​

KINGJ SAID
"Finally, Matthew 6 does not condemn possession; it condemns storing treasure as one’s ultimate trust. Christ’s statement “you cannot serve God and money” is about service and allegiance, not about having any material resources at all. One can possess wealth without serving it, just as one can possess authority without worshipping power."

But Christ doesnt say that, he clearly states "DO NOT STORE UP TREASURE ON EARTH,.... FOR WHERE YOUR TREASURE IS YOUR HEART WILL BE ALSO", Possession is trust, in the story of the rich ruler Christ says, " How hard it will be for those that TRUST in riches to enter the Kingdom of heaven", and then goes on to say " Its easier for a Camel to go through the eye of a needle than a Rich man enter Heaven", there is no distinction between Trust and possession, there is no mention of SOME RICH MEN WILL NOT ENTER HEAVEN, the condemnation is of the Rich in totality. And if you possess riches, if you have far more than you need and you claim to Love god, to be a follower of Christ, why would you keep your riches when faced with the Hungry Christ before you, the homeless Christ before you, the sick Christ before you, the poor Christ before you, as Christ depicts himself in "The Sheep and the Goats" in Matthew 25. And if God indeed does find all that men value Abhorrent in his sight, then what do men value more than riches and the power and comfort they bestow?.

KingJ said:

If mere possession of wealth automatically condemned, then Abraham, Job, David, and others, all described as blessed by God, would be in violation. Scripture never resolves that tension by saying wealth itself is sinful. Instead, it consistently warns that wealth is dangerous because of the heart, not inherently evil in itself.

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You know that Gods laws are not retrospective, in the OT mere possession of wealth was not condemned as sinful. But ;like many other OT laws, Christ came to fulfill Gods purpose and many practices that were previously justified became condemned. As Christians we live under Christs teachings, and his teachings are clear, the possession of wealth and riches is a sin and will be condemned.

Brad Huber said:

I like Glenn Beck, he is good at exposing hidden stuff which is good. He has publically apoligized for being wrong about Trump on some things which is good, because far too many people like to find fault with Trump without any real basis, they just dislike him and will believe ANY thing bad said about him as gospel. I am not sure about Glenn's spiritual relationship with Jesus, and I know that he at least used to be a mormon (LDS), which I consider a cult, but God is certainly using him to uncover a lot of truth that the evil people of this world want to be kept hidden.

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He speaks a lot of Truth..
It is written I am the way The Truth..
It's written My sheep Hear me..His children hear the Truth we know what is Truth n what is not even if one decides to mingle it.. like so many of the synagogues "church" owners do..

I'm still amazed at how many really have no clue what season we walk in frfr..


Hope All's well with ya!

┌⁠(⁠・⁠。⁠・⁠)⁠┘⁠♪

Let us all be very careful, in what we share, and how we share it, and make sure we are not deceiving our own selves in certain ways.

Pro 16:18-19
(18) Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.
(19) Better it is to be of an humble spirit with the lowly, than to divide the spoil with the proud.

Gerbolski said:

Let us all be very careful, in what we share, and how we share it, and make sure we are not deceiving our own selves in certain ways.

Pro 16:18-19
(18) Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.
(19) Better it is to be of an humble spirit with the lowly, than to divide the spoil with the proud.

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For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

⁽⁠⁽⁠ଘ⁠(⁠ ⁠ˊ⁠ᵕ⁠ˋ⁠ ⁠)⁠ଓ⁠⁾⁠⁾

Pride is very hard to see, you can say even some truths and be full of pride, which many times can be mixed with lies,
Be careful not to puff oneself up, which such love to do.

We have nothing to prove, let one guard their hearts.

No doubt there are truths said in these posts, but some mixture of lies as well, and I thank God for the ones who have said things in a humble spirit, but many posts here, even though there is some truths, are said in a very prideful way, if your not concerned about how you say things, and guarding your heart, man wow, that is very sad.

It will be between you and God really, and how many are warning of this and of that, even here at Talk Jesus, but will still actually receive the antichrist ???

Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him:

Behold, I have made thy face strong against their faces, and thy forehead strong against their foreheads. As an adamant harder than flint have I made thy forehead: fear them not, neither be dismayed at their looks, though they be a rebellious house. Moreover he said unto me, Son of man, all my words that I shall speak unto thee receive in thine heart, and hear with thine ears. And go, get thee to them of the captivity, unto the children of thy people, and speak unto them, and tell them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; whether they will hear, or whether they will forbear.

Son of man, speak to the children of thy people, and say unto them, When I bring the sword upon a land, if the people of the land take a man of their coasts, and set him for their watchman: If when he seeth the sword come upon the land, he blow the trumpet, and warn the people... But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the trumpet, and the people be not warned; if the sword come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand

Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?

Lying lips are abomination to the LORD: but they that deal truly are his delight.

Christ4Ever said:

Good brother Steve, as it should be. Now how you interpret or apply those very commandments set to us by Jesus Christ makes all the difference. Wouldn't you agree with that?

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I agree wholeheartedly with that Brother Nick, and that is why these discussion boards are so important in the understanding and development of our Christian faith, for we can discuss, hopefully without rancour, why we believe what we do, hear others opinions , and if we agree with them change our views accordingly. And another important aspect of a discussion site like "Talk Jesus" is that unlike a "face to face" conversation, which can often turn into an adversarial cut and thrust confrontation, you're given time to reflect on what others say, and, after prayerful contemplation, formulate an appropriate response. and those thoughts and words stay on the site for all to see.

Christ4Ever said:

And yet people don't following them, or apply them in their lives do they?

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That is the sinful nature of Humanity Brother Nick, we profess to follow Christ and obey his teachings, but all too often we corrupt and bend his words to suit ourselves and our own prejudices. But the first step is to understand just what Christ is saying and then try to apply it in our lives. We will always fail miserably, we will always need the Grace and Forgiveness of God for the sins we commit, but we must try, otherwise our lives are indeed built upon shifting sand and not the solid Rock of faith.

Christ4Ever said:

Amen!


Agreed. Try as with might that isn't the reality, is it?

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No its not Brother Nick,, but thats the ideal we strive for, to have Christ at the centre of our whole lives, in every decision we make to think "WWJD", its a long and hard road to travel, but as Christ said in Matthew 16 24-26, " Then said Jesus to his Disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself and take up his Cross and follow me. For whosoever will save his life will lose it and whosoever will; lose his life for my sake shall find it".

Christ4Ever said:

You could just run as an Independent, or the Christian Party! Better yet as "Steve".
The issue becomes what you construe as "Master". In your work you are responsible to others, even being the boss/owner, makes you responsible to others, i.e. customers etc. It's not blanket "Master" to perceive all positions of authority/power as being ones "Master", and a liar to the actual "Master" in Christ Jesus our God by so doing.

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I feel you are mocking me a little here Brother Nick, but in good faith, i could not enter the world of Politics, or business, or any profession where i rose above what i need to survive. I believe Christ spoke of Mammon as regarding the whole system we have created, a system built upon self interest , exploitation, greed and a lust for power, the very reason the Devil was able to offer Christ the Kingdoms of this Earth is because they are so clearly his to give, they are his domain. So i have tried to keep Mammon at arms length as much as i could, of course we all live in this evil and unjust system, but the more we take, the more we participate, the more we become tarnished and corrupted by it. We may think that we are in control, or that Christ still rules in our lives , but as Christ says in in the parable of the sower in Mark 4 18-19 " And these are they which are sown among thorns, such as hear the word, but the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches and the lusts of other things enter in, choke the word and it becomes unfruitful".,

Christ4Ever said:

I'd get to the particulars of cost cutting etc. Don't conflate what a government does and enterprise of a private nature. President Trump doesn't lose the ability to allow others to use his name to sell merchandise. If you are so inclined you can buy it, but I don't, and I appreciate the job he is doing as President! lol

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Just to put the "cost cutting" in perspective Brother Nick, i had an e-mail through today from an NGO i support which said over the next 5 years or so due to the cuts worldwide in Overseas Aid up to 22 million people , 5 million of which are children under 5, could die. I was comparing the cuts in US aid to the $200 billion request for the Iran war funding and the practice of Donald Trump, who professes his Christian Faith, of making huge profits from his "enterprise of a private nature". The selling of Gods word, signed by him as if that was a bonus, for $1000 a Bible i found just , well i think the only way i could describe it is, Blasphemous, to make money from selling the word of God, are these the actions of a Godly administration?, i guess we all have our own views on that. And please dont think i'm ascribing Godliness to the Democrats or any other political or man made group, for we're ALL corrupt and All in need of Gods forgiveness for our actions

Christ4Ever said:

Now it's the war in Iran! Dear Brother, it will always be one thing or another that he does. Do, I like war? No. Would Iranian Government kill you and your loved ones without a second thought? Of course. We can talk this war, and I can even show where Christianity is starting to explode in Iran because of it, but it's not just one thing or another as choices. Are you certain it is not God's will for this war to happen or is He not Sovereign?

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It seems to me Brother Nick that what the Iranian Government would or would not do to me and my family is not the issue here, Christ commands us to turn the other cheek, Love our enemies, do good to those that hate us and pray for those that would spitefully use us. Now i'm not saying thats easy, far from it, and i struggle with those commandments daily, but just because its hard doesnt mean we can ignore them, if we profess to follow Christ then we follow in totality and not ignore the teachings that dont suit us.

As for the question of whether or not this war is Gods will, the truth is i dont know, i have my thoughts on it, but does that matter, do we change Christs teachings when we think Gods will is being fulfilled, can we attack another country, or destroy the environment ,or disregard the poor because we say its "Gods will" that we do these things irrespective of what Christ teaches, i realised a long time ago brother Nick i am too insignificant a figure to try to understand Gods will, i just try to follow Christs commandments in this Suffering world and leave the rest to God.

And yes i believe God is "Sovereign", that the ultimate power is his, but does that mean that everything that happens in this world is his will, my mind reels at trying to comprehend the implications of this , so let me ask you a question Brother Nick, " Do you believe that its Gods will for the US to attack Iran", and was 9/11 also an expression of Gods will or the act of an evil man, or the act of an evil man inspired by God, ?. No i leave those questions to those who think they know better than me the will of God.

with the love of Christ Jesus Brother Nick

Steve

Christ4Ever said:

Off to go witness...bowling!
Love you brother!
God bless you and yours brother Steve!
YBIC/Moderator
Nick
\o/
<><

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Well we know that the tribulation period last 7 years.

The 3 main rapture views, are that, the resurrection or rapture, occurs either before the 7 year tribulation period (pre-trib), in the middle of the tribulation period (mid-trib), or at the end of the tribulation period (post-trib).

Every one has their arguments for their particular view.

Verses that have to be given heed to, are these next ones:


Luk 20:33-36
(33) Therefore in the resurrection whose wife of them is she? for seven had her to wife.
(34) And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage:
(35) But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
(36) Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.


Mat 22:30
(30) For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

In the resurrection, people who will partake of it, will get resurrected bodies, they will be as the angels, no longer dying, no longer given in marriage, therefore also, no longer giving birth.


Well who get caught up at the rapture ?

1Th 4:15-17 (15) For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. (16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1Co 15:51-52 (51) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, (52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

The dead in Christ rise first, that is their bodies shall rise to meet their spirits and souls, to meet the Lord in the air, and also the ones who are alive and remain, get caught up together with them, and they meet the Lord in the air, and get glorified bodies, that no longer die, and they shall be as the angels, no longer given in marriage.

Now verses that get talked about, via these different views are these:

Rev 3:10-11
(10) Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
(11) Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

1Th 1:10
(10) And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

Now there may be many different arguments on these verses, but anyhow, some post-tribers, will say this is speaking (Revelation 3:10-11) of the church being spared and protected from God’s wrath but not being spared from going through the tribulation period, and going through persecution.

And on the Thessalonians side, many on various sides of the coin, say various things about it, some refer the wrath to come as God’s general wrath, others refer to it as referring to the future wrath, which will be the 7 year tribulation period.

It is evident that the tribulation period is known as God’s wrath.

The bible does speak about God’s general wrath, but also about this future wrath that shall come.

Concerning this hour of temptation, it will come upon the whole world, and it says to the church that you shall be kept from this hour of temptation, when that hour comes, you shall be kept from it.

In what way shall you be kept from it, is it you shall be kept completely from it, were you do not go through it, or only kept from the wrath of it ?

Well is it a coincidence that in the next verse he mentions the coming of the Lord ?

Shall we be kept from it completely, because Christ is coming for his church ?

See it says being kept from it period, not parts of it.

And then what about Thessalonians ?


It talks about waiting for his son from heaven, who delivered us from the wrath to come.

When you get saved, you have been born again, and if you continue unto the end, one day what awaits for you, is getting a glorified body, but what Christ did, he set us free from the bondage of sin, and enables us to go to heaven, which also delivers us from the future wrath to come.


And here is it a coincidence that it talks about his coming, or to wait for the son from heaven, which delivered us from the wrath to come (future) ?

Is it this coming, which is mentioned, that spares us from this wrath ?

But if that is not enough, then what about Luke chapter 21 ?

Let us get a bit via context on Luke.

Luk 21:6-7
(6) As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
(7) And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?

Now it is clear here, that the disciples were asking about the destruction of the temple, of when shall it happen and what shall precede it.

But Matthew 24 expands on their question, which says:


Mat 24:3
(3) And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

So Luke and Matthew covers 2 time frames, the time leading up to A.D. 70 (destruction of temple), and the time leading up to the second coming.


Now the messages mentioned in Mathew and Luke, are for every one to give heed to, in one manner or another.

But on the specifics of it, it is a message to the disciples of back then, such as Matthew, Peter, and John, even the apostle Paul and Christians of that time, but also it is a message to the tribulation saints which shall go through the tribulation period.

Bu later there is a message to the church which shall escape these things, or the pre-trib church.


And concerning the A.D. 70 side of things, did they experience wars and rumors of wars, great earthquakes, famines and so on? Yes, if you look at history, they experienced all of the things mentioned, and on the Matthew 24 side of things, from verse 4 to verse 20, it refers to a double prophecy, and from verse 21 to 31, it is strictly referring to the last half of the tribulation period, leading to the second coming.

Luk 21:16
(16) And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.


Among the 12 disciples, with Matthias as being one of them, only John was not martyred.

So from Mathhew 24: 4-20, it refers to 2 time periods, the time leading to A.D. 70, and the first half of the 7 year tribulation period.

So now let us get to the escape verse.


Luk 21:36
(36) Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.


What does this mean ?

Does God say things for no reason ?

If God says that you are able to watch and pray, so to be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, then there is one day that this will be so.

Now some will say that this escape refers to escaping God’s wrath and not escaping persecution.

But it talks about escaping all of these things, all of these things, that shall come to pass, come to pass.

What are some of the things that is mentioned, that shall come to pass ?


Luk 21:16
(16) And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.

Luk 21:12
(12) But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.


Persecution, and being put to death, are some of the things that shall come to pass, that is said you can escape, we may not escape things such as persecution before the time of the 7 year tribulation, but we can escape all that shall happen in the tribulation period, according to the word.

So it speaks of escaping all of these things and standing before the son of man, which shows us that when we do escape these things, we shall stand before the Son of man, we shall be before him, and at the rapture we shall be before him.

But some will say, well that isn’t enough, there should be proof of a resurrection, with the verse that talks about standing before him.


Well ok then, let us go to old testament verses that put everything together.


Isa 26:19-21
(19) Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
(20) Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
(21) For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.


So here it shows a resurrection how the dead shall arise, and specifically it spoke of the dead rising, which if you compare it with 1 Thessalonians chapter 4, it is the dead in Christ that rise, and in the resurrection, there will people like Moses, Isaiah, Jeremiah etc., to were their dead bodies (in what ever form they may be) shall arise, and turn into incorruptible bodies.

So the earth cast out the dead, and the dead rise, and as a result they enter into the chambers, and the doors get shut, which this part reminds me of the 10 virgins, to were the door gets shut to the foolish virgins, and they are left behind.

So the dead rise, they enter into the chambers, the doors are shut, and they are hidden from the indignation, until it is accomplished, or overpast, and only afterwards is the second coming mentioned, which is a time of judgment upon the inhabitants of the earth.


So we see things mentioned in chronological order.

And the bible says to compare scriptures with scriptures.


Well here are similarities with Isaiah and Luke.

Luk 21:36 “...to escape all these things that shall come to pass…”	Isa 26:20 “...shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.”
Luk 21:36 (36) ...stand before the Son of man.	Isa 26:19-20 (19) Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise…. ...earth shall cast out the dead. (20) Come, my people,...”

Just like the old testament shows forth the first coming of Christ, you would think that it would also show things concerning the resurrection (rapture), which is a very important event, and in these Isaiah verses it shows this, and there must be other scriptures that we are not aware of, although some may be aware of them.

So the rising happens before the indignation is overpast, and before the second coming.

Now what happens at the rapture ?

1Th 4:15-17
(15) For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
(16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
(17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Not only the dead in Christ rise, but also the alive in Christ.

Well what happens at the second coming ?

Jud 1:14
(14) And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,


He comes down from heaven to earth with ten thousands of his saints.

These saints will already have glorified bodies at this point, which shall be before the time of the indignation ever takes place, in most cases (which I will get to).

At the second coming, there will be Israel and the nations, and the church.


At the second coming all unbelievers shall be destroyed (2Th 1:8-9), so the ones that form Israel and the nations, shall be believers, but later some will be born and rebel.

It says this of Israel and the nations:

Isa 65:20
(20) There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.


Here it shows infants, which shows birth, and here it shows people being able to die, but just living longer.


Luk 20:35-36
(35) But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
(36) Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.


So Israel and the nations will be able to die, but not they who partake of the resurrection.

So obviously, the alive that remain getting glorified bodies cannot refer to the second coming, or even hours after the second coming, for that would mean the ones that form the nations will get glorified bodies, yet they who get glorified bodies will be as the angels, and they will not be able to die, but the alive at the time of the second coming, will be able to die, which does not fit.

Now let us get to verses that speak of the first resurrection.

Rev 20:4-6

(4) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

(5) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

(6) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


So were it mentions the rest of the dead not living again until the 1000 years is finished, speaks of them who appear before God, at the great white throne of judgment, who partake of the second death.

But of the ones who partake of the first resurrection, in the context of Revelations 20, it speaks of martyred tribulation saints, it does not speak of the alive that remain here, in this context.

So yes there will be what initially happens, which happens before the indignation is overpast, before the things on earth take place, that we shall escape, by standing before him.


Which will be the rapture of the church, were the alive and the dead partake, and it is only in this initial event that it mentions a trumpet, and this will be the pre trib church partaking in the first resurrection, but then there will be the martyred tribulation saints who shall partake of the first resurrection, which will they partake of it, at their point of death, wherever they die in the tribulation period ? Or will they all get a glorified body, closer to a time that is just before the second coming ?

Hmmm, that is something to ponder upon, and that may be one reason for some of the post-trib arguments.


Act 24:15
(15) And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

And remember there are 2 resurrections, one of the just and one of the unjust.

Hmmm, hmmm, hmmm.

Gerbolski said:

Well we know that the tribulation period last 7 years.

The 3 main rapture views, are that, the resurrection or rapture, occurs either before the 7 year tribulation period (pre-trib), in the middle of the tribulation period (mid-trib), or at the end of the tribulation period (post-trib).

Every one has their arguments for their particular view.

Verses that have to be given heed to, are these next ones:


Luk 20:33-36
(33) Therefore in the resurrection whose wife of them is she? for seven had her to wife.
(34) And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage:
(35) But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
(36) Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.


Mat 22:30
(30) For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

In the resurrection, people who will partake of it, will get resurrected bodies, they will be as the angels, no longer dying, no longer given in marriage, therefore also, no longer giving birth.


Well who get caught up at the rapture ?

1Th 4:15-17 (15) For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. (16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1Co 15:51-52 (51) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, (52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

The dead in Christ rise first, that is their bodies shall rise to meet their spirits and souls, to meet the Lord in the air, and also the ones who are alive and remain, get caught up together with them, and they meet the Lord in the air, and get glorified bodies, that no longer die, and they shall be as the angels, no longer given in marriage.

Now verses that get talked about, via these different views are these:

Rev 3:10-11
(10) Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
(11) Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

1Th 1:10
(10) And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

Now there may be many different arguments on these verses, but anyhow, some post-tribers, will say this is speaking (Revelation 3:10-11) of the church being spared and protected from God’s wrath but not being spared from going through the tribulation period, and going through persecution.

And on the Thessalonians side, many on various sides of the coin, say various things about it, some refer the wrath to come as God’s general wrath, others refer to it as referring to the future wrath, which will be the 7 year tribulation period.

It is evident that the tribulation period is known as God’s wrath.

The bible does speak about God’s general wrath, but also about this future wrath that shall come.

Concerning this hour of temptation, it will come upon the whole world, and it says to the church that you shall be kept from this hour of temptation, when that hour comes, you shall be kept from it.

In what way shall you be kept from it, is it you shall be kept completely from it, were you do not go through it, or only kept from the wrath of it ?

Well is it a coincidence that in the next verse he mentions the coming of the Lord ?

Shall we be kept from it completely, because Christ is coming for his church ?

See it says being kept from it period, not parts of it.

And then what about Thessalonians ?


It talks about waiting for his son from heaven, who delivered us from the wrath to come.

When you get saved, you have been born again, and if you continue unto the end, one day what awaits for you, is getting a glorified body, but what Christ did, he set us free from the bondage of sin, and enables us to go to heaven, which also delivers us from the future wrath to come.


And here is it a coincidence that it talks about his coming, or to wait for the son from heaven, which delivered us from the wrath to come (future) ?

Is it this coming, which is mentioned, that spares us from this wrath ?

But if that is not enough, then what about Luke chapter 21 ?

Let us get a bit via context on Luke.

Luk 21:6-7
(6) As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
(7) And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?

Now it is clear here, that the disciples were asking about the destruction of the temple, of when shall it happen and what shall precede it.

But Matthew 24 expands on their question, which says:


Mat 24:3
(3) And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

So Luke and Matthew covers 2 time frames, the time leading up to A.D. 70 (destruction of temple), and the time leading up to the second coming.


Now the messages mentioned in Mathew and Luke, are for every one to give heed to, in one manner or another.

But on the specifics of it, it is a message to the disciples of back then, such as Matthew, Peter, and John, even the apostle Paul and Christians of that time, but also it is a message to the tribulation saints which shall go through the tribulation period.

Bu later there is a message to the church which shall escape these things, or the pre-trib church.


And concerning the A.D. 70 side of things, did they experience wars and rumors of wars, great earthquakes, famines and so on? Yes, if you look at history, they experienced all of the things mentioned, and on the Matthew 24 side of things, from verse 4 to verse 20, it refers to a double prophecy, and from verse 21 to 31, it is strictly referring to the last half of the tribulation period, leading to the second coming.

Luk 21:16
(16) And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.


Among the 12 disciples, with Matthias as being one of them, only John was not martyred.

So from Mathhew 24: 4-20, it refers to 2 time periods, the time leading to A.D. 70, and the first half of the 7 year tribulation period.

So now let us get to the escape verse.


Luk 21:36
(36) Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.


What does this mean ?

Does God say things for no reason ?

If God says that you are able to watch and pray, so to be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, then there is one day that this will be so.

Now some will say that this escape refers to escaping God’s wrath and not escaping persecution.

But it talks about escaping all of these things, all of these things, that shall come to pass, come to pass.

What are some of the things that is mentioned, that shall come to pass ?


Luk 21:16
(16) And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.

Luk 21:12
(12) But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.


Persecution, and being put to death, are some of the things that shall come to pass, that is said you can escape, we may not escape things such as persecution before the time of the 7 year tribulation, but we can escape all that shall happen in the tribulation period, according to the word.

So it speaks of escaping all of these things and standing before the son of man, which shows us that when we do escape these things, we shall stand before the Son of man, we shall be before him, and at the rapture we shall be before him.

But some will say, well that isn’t enough, there should be proof of a resurrection, with the verse that talks about standing before him.


Well ok then, let us go to old testament verses that put everything together.


Isa 26:19-21
(19) Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
(20) Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
(21) For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.


So here it shows a resurrection how the dead shall arise, and specifically it spoke of the dead rising, which if you compare it with 1 Thessalonians chapter 4, it is the dead in Christ that rise, and in the resurrection, there will people like Moses, Isaiah, Jeremiah etc., to were their dead bodies (in what ever form they may be) shall arise, and turn into incorruptible bodies.

So the earth cast out the dead, and the dead rise, and as a result they enter into the chambers, and the doors get shut, which this part reminds me of the 10 virgins, to were the door gets shut to the foolish virgins, and they are left behind.

So the dead rise, they enter into the chambers, the doors are shut, and they are hidden from the indignation, until it is accomplished, or overpast, and only afterwards is the second coming mentioned, which is a time of judgment upon the inhabitants of the earth.


So we see things mentioned in chronological order.

And the bible says to compare scriptures with scriptures.


Well here are similarities with Isaiah and Luke.

Luk 21:36 “...to escape all these things that shall come to pass…”	Isa 26:20 “...shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.”
Luk 21:36 (36) ...stand before the Son of man.	Isa 26:19-20 (19) Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise…. ...earth shall cast out the dead. (20) Come, my people,...”

Just like the old testament shows forth the first coming of Christ, you would think that it would also show things concerning the resurrection (rapture), which is a very important event, and in these Isaiah verses it shows this, and there must be other scriptures that we are not aware of, although some may be aware of them.

So the rising happens before the indignation is overpast, and before the second coming.

Now what happens at the rapture ?

1Th 4:15-17
(15) For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
(16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
(17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Not only the dead in Christ rise, but also the alive in Christ.

Well what happens at the second coming ?

Jud 1:14
(14) And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,


He comes down from heaven to earth with ten thousands of his saints.

These saints will already have glorified bodies at this point, which shall be before the time of the indignation ever takes place, in most cases (which I will get to).

At the second coming, there will be Israel and the nations, and the church.


At the second coming all unbelievers shall be destroyed (2Th 1:8-9), so the ones that form Israel and the nations, shall be believers, but later some will be born and rebel.

It says this of Israel and the nations:

Isa 65:20
(20) There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.


Here it shows infants, which shows birth, and here it shows people being able to die, but just living longer.


Luk 20:35-36
(35) But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
(36) Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.


So Israel and the nations will be able to die, but not they who partake of the resurrection.

So obviously, the alive that remain getting glorified bodies cannot refer to the second coming, or even hours after the second coming, for that would mean the ones that form the nations will get glorified bodies, yet they who get glorified bodies will be as the angels, and they will not be able to die, but the alive at the time of the second coming, will be able to die, which does not fit.

Now let us get to verses that speak of the first resurrection.

Rev 20:4-6

(4) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

(5) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

(6) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


So were it mentions the rest of the dead not living again until the 1000 years is finished, speaks of them who appear before God, at the great white throne of judgment, who partake of the second death.

But of the ones who partake of the first resurrection, in the context of Revelations 20, it speaks of martyred tribulation saints, it does not speak of the alive that remain here, in this context.

So yes there will be what initially happens, which happens before the indignation is overpast, before the things on earth take place, that we shall escape, by standing before him.


Which will be the rapture of the church, were the alive and the dead partake, and it is only in this initial event that it mentions a trumpet, and this will be the pre trib church partaking in the first resurrection, but then there will be the martyred tribulation saints who shall partake of the first resurrection, which will they partake of it, at their point of death, wherever they die in the tribulation period ? Or will they all get a glorified body, closer to a time that is just before the second coming ?

Hmmm, that is something to ponder upon, and that may be one reason for some of the post-trib arguments.


Act 24:15
(15) And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

And remember there are 2 resurrections, one of the just and one of the unjust.

Hmmm, hmmm, hmmm.

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May Jesus fill us with his love and wisdom

I'm sure of you quoted it already. About the fact that the good and the bad are going to be gathered together at the same time and then separated

Also the fact that in all of the scripture that we read no one leaves the planet in the rescue. They are either set aside from the group that's being punished as in Egypt. The Passover for instance, or you have lot and his wife that are in their family that are pulled aside they're pulled out of the area but they're not like taking to heaven but they still have to start over again it's not like they're not getting completely out of the picture. And then you have Noah who threw his faith, builds the ark through all the insults and rhetoric of everybody around him that basically told him he's a fool. But he follows God goes through the whole mess and then he opens the ark and all the animals come in and people are still making fun of him and so on and closes the ark and now it rains no God judges the world no it didn't Escape in a sense didn't be removed from the planet the Lord provided for him and his family and they went through the deluge. And after the Deluge was over in the Lord cleanse the Earth of the wickedness and the Ark landed on Mount Ararat. Then Noah had to start over again.

God protects his people through all the crap that's coming. But he's not going to take us out of the world because we are the witnesses of God's mercy towards everything. We are the witnesses of God in every aspect of his glory. So I don't see any reason why this pattern from God is going to change anytime soon, with our quote rapture where everybody's taken off planet. And to be honest with you we don't have it bad right now not compared to the slaves of Egypt or the people in China if everybody was experiencing the hardship that they have in China maybe I'd have a little more belief in that Rapture business. But I don't because I know that God doesn't work that way. Mankind thinks that way but God doesn't

God is a good God, all scriptures must be taken in their own individual context, and we cannot be one verse Charlies. We have examples of people being protected in the midst of things, and we have examples of people being caught up such as Enoch and Elijah, so many have very silly arguments, it is like a battle between being rapture and not raptured, it is almost like people adding merits to one or the other as if we get brownie points with God, that is how many arguments about this is going, it is very silly and not very wise.

Rad said:

I feel you are mocking me a little here Brother Nick, but in good faith, i could not enter the world of Politics, or business, or any profession where i rose above what i need to survive. I believe Christ spoke of Mammon as regarding the whole system we have created, a system built upon self interest , exploitation, greed and a lust for power, the very reason the Devil was able to offer Christ the Kingdoms of this Earth is because they are so clearly his to give, they are his domain. So i have tried to keep Mammon at arms length as much as i could, of course we all live in this evil and unjust system, but the more we take, the more we participate, the more we become tarnished and corrupted by it. We may think that we are in control, or that Christ still rules in our lives , but as Christ says in in the parable of the sower in Mark 4 18-19 " And these are they which are sown among thorns, such as hear the word, but the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches and the lusts of other things enter in, choke the word and it becomes unfruitful".,

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Not mocking at all, brother Steve. If you want to create change then you get involved in making it happen as it appears you are doing. You really do not know how the USA was started do you? I mean the Godly Men who sacrificed everything, to their own lives to start a country that was free to worship God, His Word, by the Spirit that would lead them to do what is right by the Bible and establish a country founded for love of God, and Country while fighting oppression (UK). Though it cost them everything (Sacrifice), fortunes, their own and their family lives at times too.
No, the system is not the problem, but the people themselves. John Adams said "Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.", which I have quoted many times here. I guess in the hope that people would realize that this country an experiment in governance, might be what God intended it to be, and those founders had hoped for.
This is the one you are fighting against and believe that this is because you are doing so for Jesus Christ's commandments, which include doing so for your neighbors who have less, all the while not seeing the sacrifices of your other neighbors across the pond who are sacrificing for what you are doing to comply with what you believe on your part is being obedient to Christ. You've chosen helping one over the other. One you would classify as lambs, while the other goats.

Rad said:

Just to put the "cost cutting" in perspective Brother Nick, i had an e-mail through today from an NGO i support which said over the next 5 years or so due to the cuts worldwide in Overseas Aid up to 22 million people , 5 million of which are children under 5, could die. I was comparing the cuts in US aid to the $200 billion request for the Iran war funding and the practice of Donald Trump, who professes his Christian Faith, of making huge profits from his "enterprise of a private nature". The selling of Gods word, signed by him as if that was a bonus, for $1000 a Bible i found just , well i think the only way i could describe it is, Blasphemous, to make money from selling the word of God, are these the actions of a Godly administration?, i guess we all have our own views on that. And please dont think i'm ascribing Godliness to the Democrats or any other political or man made group, for we're ALL corrupt and All in need of Gods forgiveness for our actions

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Well comparisons can be done many ways, and in truth hold no water because they must be looked at in the entirety of the topic and its affects as a whole. Otherwise, I could rightly say why aren't you using your money, to help those families who have been killed by illegals instead? Do, you see? One can reason things any number of ways, but none of them unless seen through the Spirit of God are rightly discerned and are to affect. Take care brother, otherwise you are making your own actions no better, by the last statement above since in truth "ALL corrupt and All in need of Gods forgiveness for our actions."

Rad said:

It seems to me Brother Nick that what the Iranian Government would or would not do to me and my family is not the issue here,

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Sure it is! Aren't your own actions predicated on what you believe you should be doing for your neirghbor as you yourself would want to be done to you no matter the cost to anyone else?

Rad said:

Do you believe that its Gods will for the US to attack Iran", and was 9/11 also an expression of Gods will or the act of an evil man, or the act of an evil man inspired by God, ?. No i leave those questions to those who think they know better than me the will of God.

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So, you asked and answered your own question! It's the same as many who have difficulty reconciling the Loving God of the New Testament to the One who wanted everyone to get slaughtered, man, woman, child, in the Old Testament.

Love you Brother! Keep the Faith!
With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC/Moderator
Nick
\o/
<><

Gerbolski said:

God is a good God, all scriptures must be taken in their own individual context, and we cannot be one verse Charlies. We have examples of people being protected in the midst of things, and we have examples of people being caught up such as Enoch and Elijah, so many have very silly arguments, it is like a battle between being rapture and not raptured, it is almost like people adding merits to one or the other as if we get brownie points with God, that is how many arguments about this is going, it is very silly and not very wise.

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Using Enoch and Elijah has examples of escaping some craziness is foolishness at best. Enoch was taken up to heaven because he loved God and God loved him. It didn't say that there was any type of strife and he knocks life to cause him to be taken up in the first place. And as far as Elijah goes it was his time. Elijah had already gone through all of the craziness with Jezebel and everything else he had been hunted as a prophet. Had gone up against others who claim to be Prophets. So Elijah had already done all the things and had gone through the tribulation of his time before he left the planet. And as far as the witnesses of Revelations they will go through the tribulation if not be part of it. And at their time they will fulfill what the scripture says. But they are not leaving the planet because they are trying to escape it. Because I'm looking forward to walking in Jerusalem and causing all sorts of mayhem.

So if God at times chooses to protect someone in a situation on earth while being in the midst of it, or if he does so by catching someone up to meet him in the air, why would any of those means be wrong ??? We cannot establish our own righteousness by us exalting a means by which God has to protect us, God is God , do not limit him, and get him to fit your pattern of behavior.

Gerbolski said:

So if God at times chooses to protect someone in a situation on earth while being in the midst of it, or if he does so by catching someone up to meet him in the air, why would any of those means be wrong ??? We cannot establish our own righteousness by us exalting a means by which God has to protect us, God is God , do not limit him, and get him to fit your pattern of behavior.

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May Jesus fill us with his love and wisdom.

God is always protecting us whether you wish to believe it or not. The angels are always fighting the darkness every single day and night.

You might ask yourself why would he allow the angels to do all that when he can do it himself. It's because he chooses to let the Angels do what they're made to do.

Yes God could Rapture everybody off the planet. But then where would we go, because you have to be perfect before he enter Heaven. And accepting Jesus as your lord and savior doesn't mean that you're perfect, it means that you have accepted Jesus and as your lord and savior and as of that moment all of your sins have been forgiven. And then you try not to sin. And when you do soon you go up to the Lord you say Lord forgive me and he forgives you.

But I can guarantee you that if everybody that was Christian at as of this moment were to be snatched up, they'd also be snatched up with whatever sin that they already had on their hearts. And there's a lot of sins that we commit that we don't even think about

Christians by and large are the greatest offenders to God. You might think that's a little bit crazy, but think about that they're the quickest to judge everybody else because "you don't think like I do". Look at how easily Christians by and large will condemn a person if they haven't accepted Jesus's as Lord, and they are completely ignoring the scripture when they do that.

Paul tells us in Romans. "It is not listening to the law but keeping it that will make people holy in the sight of God. For instance, pagans who never heard of the law but are led by reason to do the what the law commands may not actually possess the law but they can be said to be the law. They can point to the substance of the law engraved on their hearts."

Now Christians by and large read the scripture they know the law up and down, and they do not listen to it.

Does this mean that all Christians are bad no obviously. But it does mean that as a Christian we should not judge. We should know this already not to judge yet it goes on and on and on and on and on all the time.

How about a simple example, what do you think about the Catholics?

Was your first thought a negative reaction? What more do I need to say. If you had a negative reaction you're already making a negative reaction to all the Catholics that I've ever walked even though many have walked in righteousness. And if I say the same thing to Catholics, what do you think of the Protestants? And if their first view is negative then they themselves are condemning the whole bunch of different churches everybody that isn't Catholic basically. So you see the dilemma here both sides got to get over it. If you want to get into heaven.
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The business about God protecting individuals through circumstances happens all the time. We see it constantly but we don't remember to pay attention to it. Every time there's some major conflict of war or something like that or some disaster. You're going to have a person who has been kept alive in some crazy dramatic way, and this is God's doing. And that person ends up becoming a great preacher for a long period of time.

If it wasn't for the events of circumstances of God protecting individuals that have gone through World War II World War I . What happened during 9/11 in all the people that died saving other people. And those other people have become something else and maybe they're preaching about God's love and mercy. We don't know all of the different Avenues. God does what he wants to do.

So yeah he could take everybody off planet, but based on history he never has yet not when they have to go through some insane turmoil in their lives. Elijah lived his life on the planet through the whole mess. He had Kings afternoon prophets that hated him the whole nine yards he went through it all he brought the Israelites back to God. And when he left he didn't have anybody chasing after him for his death. And the same thing with Enoch. God took him yet but there's no scripture that says anything about Enoch was in danger of his life. In fact everybody that was in danger of their lives had to go through all the crap. Daniel and the lion. The Profit that went through the fire, I mean there's just hundreds of experiences in the scripture where everybody had to go through it whatever the tribulation of that time was. Weather the Israelites were the slaves of Egypt, or Persia, or whatever. They all went through it.

More of Jesus, less of us.

farmerjoe said:

Did God remove Noah and his family from the flood or did He saved them through it?
Did God remove Daniel from the Lion's den or did He save him through it?
Did God remove the three Hebrews from the fiery furnace of did He save them through it?
Did God remove Job from his trials or did God help him through them?

The tribulation has a purpose. It's to purify the Church by bringing it to repentance, and to restore Israel. The rapture happens in Revelation 14 just before God's wrath is poured out so that Christians aren't the recipients of, and God is not guilty of, "friendly fire" like the plagues in chapter 15.

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May Jesus fill us with his love and wisdom

God was always present through all of them. Even when the Israelites were in Egypt, and they stayed there during all of the trials that the Egyptians experienced. They themselves were spared yet they were there through it all. It is the same for us we will be here to witness the truth go to the trials and the tribulation of the world will not touch us directly, we will still live through it. And God will be with us

There are truths you are saying Bill.

But this verse:

2Ti 3:12
(12) Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

Does not deny these verses:

Isa 26:19-21
(19) Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
(20) Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
(21) For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

It speaks of a rising and as a result being hidden before the indignation, until it is overpast.

This speaks of the resurrection, or what these next verses say:

1Th 4:16-17
(16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
(17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

We accept all scripture, and do not use others to deny others, and yes the examples of Egypt and so on, are in the bible, but so are these verses.

Some people say the pre tribers are all afraid of persecution, but that is not true, there are mid, and post tribers, that are afraid of persecution, if we could get rid of those judgments in labeling all this way or that way, it would be a far more productive conversation.

Gerbolski said:

There are truths you are saying Bill.

But this verse:

2Ti 3:12
(12) Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

Does not deny these verses:

Isa 26:19-21
(19) Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
(20) Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
(21) For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

It speaks of a rising and as a result being hidden before the indignation, until it is overpast.

This speaks of the resurrection, or what these next verses say:

1Th 4:16-17
(16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
(17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

We accept all scripture, and do not use others to deny others, and yes the examples of Egypt and so on, are in the bible, but so are these verses.

Some people say the pre tribers are all afraid of persecution, but that is not true, there are mid, and post tribers, that are afraid of persecution, if we could get rid of those judgments in labeling all this way or that way, it would be a far more productive conversation.

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May Jesus fill us with his love and wisdom

The two quotations that you quote from scripture are talking about two separate events.

The quote that you gave from Isaiah talks about an event that's about to happen in the not too distant future in fact it's very very close to us now. That event is known as the breaking of the Sixth Seal.

This event will be God's grace to the world before the justice of God takes place. God is going to reveal himself to every man woman and child on the planet. And every man woman and child on the planet will know exactly where they stand before God.

The second quote you have from scripture is talking about when Jesus returns to the Earth. On that day that Jesus comes down from heaven and in the clouds with the angels and the Saints from heaven. When those who have died through the Great justice of God the Great Tribulation. Those Christians who will rise from the dead and those who still remain on the Earth