How far depends on the individual as well as the country you are talking about wouldn't you say? Actually, deterrent does work, but it depends on the socioeconomic conditions, systemic factors of the country that you are talking about when one is talking about crime. Think about nuclear weapons, and mutually shared destruction. So, deterrence does work, but it really has other factors that must be considered, before one says it doesn't work or has limited affect.
Some countries go over the top in punishment, and it seems to work. Check out Singapore. While I agree in some countries like Iceland, Denmark, have low crime rates, what you will also find is its racial homogeny is also limited. Not something anyone likes to talk about or take into account either. lol
So specifically relating to the death penalty what evidence have you got that its a deterrent, and i agree that other factors need to be taken into consideration, but have States that have abolished the death penalty witnessed a rise in violent crime?, ....... and even if they have, isnt our faith based on morality and not practicality, or do you think that just because something works then its validated?.
Exactly, right. For a Christian, but for the non-believer who are already transgressors against God, and Christ, the laws of the state stand as an acceptable form of punishment to be metered out.
But not for Christians if they go against the teachings of Christ.
The interesting part of it is, try standing on your forgiveness in Christ Jesus for your sins, in a regular court of law and see how far that gets you! I do believe that Paul saw this, and as a Roman Citizen, was able to plead his case to Cesar.
Actually, you see the very issue of "forgoing one sin so that another may be committed". You are saying that "we can only transgress the laws of a country...", even though the authority that made the laws of the country is God. You would fall back on man-made law, while the authority is God for them to do so! That's the conundrum you are facing, and why I said what I said.
I'm still a bit lost with this, my reasoning powers not as great as yours i'm afraid, my position is, Christians must obey the law of the land unless that law conflicts with Christs teachings , then we must follow Christs teaching and accept whatever consequence befalls us.
I agree with your "middle ground". Romans 7:14-20 speaks well to this.
I disagree with your explanation of "what if scenarios". For to you it may be an assist to see if the implications of one's belief can hold water, because it is a too weak version to the actual reality of having to follow through in faith one's belief. In certain instances that is fine, but in the area we are talking about I would say no. Would I rely on those scenarios if I knew I’d have to face the reality of making decisions based on them, knowing they might not truly reflect what my actions would be when the time came to make them if they were personal? Or am I just deluding myself into thinking they would? I am honest to know that I would not want to be tested in this way, for I know my own sinful nature. To do otherwise, is to seek to have your resolve tested in reality, which for me is similar to asking for patience!
I agree, we can from the position we're now in speculate "what if....."., and it might not be an indication of how we would act when faced with reality, but i still think it makes us put ourselves in a situation we're theorising about, asks us what do you hope you would do when faced with such a situation, guess we're different, for myself, it concentrates the mind, makes me go a step further that just saying, and perhaps helps to see a little deeper into the complexities of "What if.....".
That is why I provided Paul's words.
We need to pass judgment brother! In fact, we do it every day of our lives. However, doing it rightly is the conundrum we all must face. Folks like to use the adulterous woman as an example, of forgiveness of sin, but leave out the future behavior being judged not just in this act, but all acts. Forgiveness for that one act of hers does not negate first the consequences of her sin apart from the stoning, but also any future sin being brought to account against her.
We need to pass judgement on the actions of ourselves and others, but what we cant do is pass judgement and then condemn others to death, or to "righteous" punishment, for that is Gods prerogative, he alone knows all, we just see the action , the outward person, he sees inside and knows the history of us all.
Our sins will be judged by God, and God alone, and i think we will all be surprised at his judgements, for many that consider themselves first will be last, and the last first.
You asked me a question, and I know the answer lies not in anything I’ve done, but in what He, my Jesus, has done for me. So, I ask you this: Do you believe your actions are what will save you? If so, what does that mean for God’s grace?
No my actions will not save me, we are saved by Gods Grace, but my actions are an integral part of my salvation in that they show my being Born again into a follower of Christ, for without loving our neighbour as ourselves, for treating others as we'd want them to treat us, for not having Love in our hearts, then our professed faith is worthless.
Do you believe salvation is individual or can be received as a community?
Salvation is individual.
Then why are you not following our laws that we have in the US, or for that matter, any of the myriad laws for caning, the cutting off limbs, etc.? Which they do to neighbors too who commit the crimes that warrant it or are you saying that if you commit a crime, you should not be punished for it, or only God can punish you, and not by the authority He put in place to do so?
First of all i live in the UK, but if the UK passed a law that contravened the teachings of Christ i hope i'd have the courage to disobey it, or are you saying every law, even those that contravene Christs teaching should be followed by a Christian?
And what i'm saying is, that if we are punished for following Christs teachings, for "Righteousness", then we should accept that punishment knowing that "Blessed are those persecuted for Righteousness sake, for the Kingdom of Heaven is yours",
I've asked you to break down which USAID funded programs are acceptable to be cut, but I hear only generalities for funding that is being cut, and not specifics. What falls under what one would consider humanitarian aid, is wide and varied, to were you to know what they were, even the most liberal of people would say "what?". So, what I am saying, is that just saying so does not make it true. Research a little of the programs that Musk's team Doge was suggesting being cut (all placed on line), and you might have a better idea of what is being talked about. Instead of believing everything from the left or right that you've gotten your information from. Also, what is the UN doing? Isn't that their responsibility?
Here's a start: I hope you don't have a problem with these or at least the majority of them.
I have no problem with waste and corruption in Overseas aid being cut out of programmes, my only worry is that who's making the decision whether a programme is "worthy" or not?, and what will happen to the Aid programmes cut, will the money from them be put back into more worthy Aid programmes?.
| Program/Grant Description | Country/Region | Amount (USD) | Rationale for Cut (per DOGE) | Status |
|---|
| Grant to Gavi (global vaccine access organization) | Global | $1.75 billion (claimed; actual prior payout $880 million) | Duplicate funding and lack of oversight; seen as inefficient international handout. | Canceled in full. |
| PEPFAR (HIV/AIDS prevention and treatment, including Ebola efforts) | Africa/Global | $9.4 billion (partial cut from broader USAID health programs) | Accused of "woke" elements; initial freeze disrupted meds for 2M+ people, later partially restored amid backlash. | Partially cut; chaos reported in supply chains. |
| DEI/ESG consultancy services | Africa | $520 million | Corporate-style "woke" consulting with no direct U.S. benefit. | Terminated. |
| Biodiversity conservation and "licit livelihoods" promotion | Colombia | $25 million | Vague environmental/social engineering abroad. | Canceled. |
| Social/economic inclusion for sedentary migrants | Global | $40 million | Unclear value; prioritized foreign migrants over U.S. needs. | Axed. |
| Social and behavioral change research/programs | Uganda | $42 million | Ideological interventions with low ROI. | Cut. |
| Political development and election strengthening | Global (Consortium for Elections) | $486 million | Foreign election meddling; included voter turnout boosts. | Eliminated. |
| Voter turnout enhancement | India | $21 million | Non-essential foreign political influence. | Terminated. |
| Political landscape strengthening | Bangladesh | $29 million | Bureaucratic waste in unstable regions. | Canceled. |
| Fiscal federalism and biodiversity initiatives | Nepal | $39 million ($20M + $19M) | Overlapping, low-impact grants. | Both cut. |
| Social cohesion promotion | Mali | $14 million | Risky funding in conflict zones with fraud potential. | Axed. |
| Inclusive democratic processes | South Africa | $2.5 million | Redundant "inclusion" efforts. | Terminated. |
| Educational outcomes improvement | Asia | $47 million | Broad, untargeted spending. | Cut. |
| Condom distribution | Hamas-linked groups (Gaza) | $100 million | Funding to terrorist-affiliated entities. | Halted. |
| Voluntary medical male circumcision | Mozambique | $10 million | Questionable health priority abroad. | Canceled. |
| Independent media voices strengthening | Cambodia | $2.3 million | Media bias promotion. | Axed. |
| Public procurement enhancement | Serbia | $14 million | Administrative bloat. | Terminated. |
| Political participation and inclusion | Moldova | $22 million | Foreign political activism. | Cut. |
| Voter confidence boosting | Liberia | $1.5 million | Minimal U.S. strategic value. | Canceled. |
| Sesame Street educational programming | Iraq | $20 million | Cultural exports with no security return. | Eliminated. |
| Meals for al-Qaeda-linked group | Syria | $10 million | Direct aid to terrorists. | Halted. |
| Combating disinformation | Kazakhstan | $4.5 million | Censorship tool disguised as aid. | Cut. |
| Avoiding binary-gendered language training for journalists | Sri Lanka | $7.9 million | Extreme ideological training. | Terminated. |
| LGBT advocacy | Jamaica | $1.5 million | Non-core U.S. foreign policy. | Axed. |
| LGBT causes/activism | Guatemala (sex changes), Uganda, Western Balkans, Armenia, Honduras, South Africa, Latin America, Global | $2M + $5.5M + $3.9M + $1.1M + $1.9M + $6.3M + $2M + $6M (total ~$28M) | "Woke" priorities over essentials. | All canceled. |
| Equity and inclusion education | Global (USAID Education) | $8.3 million | DEI in foreign schools. | Cut. |
| EcoHealth Alliance (bat virus research funding) | Global (Wuhan lab ties) | $5 million (x2 instances) | Links to controversial origins of COVID-19. | Terminated. |
| Gas station construction | Afghanistan | $43 million | Unused infrastructure boondoggle. | |
| Pottery classes and promotion | Morocco | $2 million | Cultural frivolity. | Canceled. |
| Transgender opera | Colombia | $47,000 | Artistic propaganda. | Axed. |
| Transgender comic book | Peru | $32,000 | Niche ideological media. | Terminated. |
| Reintegration gift bags for deportees (incl. Barbie dolls) | Global | $27 million | Silly, low-value items. | Cut. |
Controversies: While DOGE touted fraud reductions (e.g., $1B recovered), global health experts estimated 14 million+ preventable deaths by 2030 from disrupted programs like PEPFAR and malaria aid. Legal challenges temporarily blocked some cuts, but courts largely upheld DOGE's authority.
So are you happy with the cut in programmes leading to 14 million extra preventable deaths, and what if it was 1.4 million, what if 140,000, what price do you put on a life saved.
What Christians should advocate? Want me to add a verse for you to say, that we are in the World but not of it?
The way i see it we must try to extricate ourselves as much as possible from the greed, selfishness, envy, hate and lust of this broken world, but given those sins are within all of us , thats impossible to do, so we try the best we can, yep, middle ground again!!.......as for being in the world, we are called on to be "the salt of the Earth", to "Let our light shine before men that they may see our good works and glorify our father in Heaven", "Love the Lord our God with all our heart and our neighbour as ourselves".
You suffer for people, so turn them to Jesus! I knew of an organization that decided not to try to use the giving of food with the Gospel of Jesus. Do you know why? Not to upset the people who believed differently!!! These same organizations if you were to tell them, that they could have all the money they needed, but the Gospel of Jesus would have to be spread along with it...do you know what they'd say??? "NO THANK-YOU"! That is how ultraistic the organizations you are dealing with are!!! Saving their bodies seems so important to them, but losing their eternal lives doesn't matter as much!
So, what should Christian's advocate? The Gospel!!!!
Thats a part of it, but we must also advocate for Justice, Compassion, Mercy and forgiveness, and in so doing we are advocating for the Gospel, let our faith be not just in words but in actions as well, faith without deeds is a dead faith indeed, "let our light shine before men that they may see our good works and glorify our father in heaven",.........i'm a great believer in material aid and the word of God, but it has to be done with consideration for both the people you're helping and the condition they find themselves in, otherwise it could do more harm than good, and also as evidenced here on this forum, theres such a divergence of views on what constitutes being a follower of Christ, but given all those variables and imperfections, yes i agree, the word of God is a great solace in times of trial and tribulation.
People often approach me outside grocery stores asking for money to buy food. Instead of giving them cash, I offer to shop for food with them and cover the cost, but so far, no one has taken me up on it! You can’t be sure where the money actually goes. You want to believe it’s all helping the poor and hungry, but the reality is often darker than what you imagine about those who are cutting funding.
I understand that we are ALL sinners, with all that implies, the poor are just people, with all the sins inherent in us all, those that administer and receive Aid are also just people, greed, corruption and self interest run through them all like it does all of us, my position is simple, if only 10 pence in the pound got through i'd still give, for something is always better than nothing, of course i'd campaign to reform the aid delivery, cut out the corruption as much as you can, but the option to not give is not an option for a follower of Christ.
Oh, and please don't put the blame of poverty and suffering on the people who did not create the problem in the first place! (Matthew 26:11)
I am with you, but I'm also a realist, to the grey areas that have caused the problems that we see worldwide. Give them Jesus, and you will have given them what all the resources in the world could never give them and won't be able to!
Yes the poor will always be with us, and why do you think that is, why in a world where God gave sufficient resources for all to live a life where their needs were met is there such poverty and suffering. If you look around at what we have in the rich world you may find the answer.
And if you and your family were starving and someone came along and said " I could give you food , or i could give you a Bible and the word of God", which would you choose, for me , its not an either or situation, we need both spiritual and physical nourishment , its easy to theorise with a full stomach and material possessions, but take those away and the reality might be a little different
That is the focus, as a Christian, in disciple making, and all else we do is so that we can give them Jesus! If you don't include that with what you do, and hope that they'll get it some other way...well...
Agreed, and youve made me think about my priorities as to my giving, i'll look more at Christian based organisations in the future, i already include some but need to focus more on not just providing bread ,... "for man cannot live on bread alone but by every word of God."
With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC/Moderator
Nick
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