Dave M said:

Hebrews 8:13
very simple

New International Version
By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

New Living Translation
When God speaks of a “new” covenant, it means he has made the first one obsolete. It is now out of date and will soon disappear.

English Standard Version
In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Berean Standard Bible
By speaking of a new covenant, He has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.

Berean Literal Bible
In saying, "new," He has made obsolete the first; and that which is growing old and aging is near vanishing.

King James Bible
In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

New King James Version
In that He says, “ A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

New American Standard Bible
When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is about to disappear.

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I would offer, the new is the restored or reformed. The old the letter death "thou shall not, or you are dead . The first century reformation had come.(Hebrews 9) Shadows used as ceremonial signs to the unbelieving world disappeared.

The first set of tables hewn and (2) written on both sides with no room for oral traditions of dying mankind. They were destroyed to show to power of the letter of the law. (death)

Then Christ moved Moses to hewn out two new tables and again Christ with his finger wrote on both sides with no room for the oral traditions of dying mankind.

Romans 7:6But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.(death)

The mixing of the two laws, that of death the letter seen and life. Creating or making one new perfect law the law of faith believing the unseen things of Christ

Romans 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, (death) and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.





'

I'm wondering what you might think "ready to vanish" or "about to" or "soon will" means to you.

Like... how long?

Would it not have already vanished when this epistle was written?

- Jeremiah 38:31-34 Brenton

Looks like a lot of pastors are going to lose their jobs..... (and priests....)

Agape,
Rhema

Dave M said:

Why do people think ot covenant are still active?

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Because right after the above passage, the prophecy is given:

- Jeremiah 38:36-37 Brenton

not sure exactly when, but sometimes after Christ finished his work on the cross, my guess would be at the same time the curtain was torn

Rhema said:

Because right after the above passage, the prophecy is given:

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What does right after the above prophecy the prophecy is given?

Dave M said:

not sure exactly when, but sometimes after Christ finished his work on the cross, my guess would be at the same time the curtain was torn

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I would offer and agree. . . the same time the curtain was torn. The time of reformation (1st century) had come (Hebrew 9)

Satan could no longer deceive all the nations of the world that eternal God was a Jewish man as King of kings.

1 Peter speaks of the shadows of the good thing to come using the ceremonial law that prophesied or declared of the grace of Christ beforehand
1 Peter 1:8-11Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: Receiving the end of your faith (new born again) even the salvation of your souls. Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:;Searching what, or what manner of time (Hebrew 9) the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.(Hebrew 9)

According to the parable in Revelation 20. Satan the spirit of lies will be released for a short time to again try and deceive all the nations of the whole world God is a Jewish man as King of kings

Revelation 20And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations (of the whole world) no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Only anti-Christ insist the OT covenant is still in effect by calling Christ anything but the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and Love, and the Redeemer.

One thing that comes to mind is Revelation 2:9. People like this, who say they follow the Messiah, but act satanic, can and will lead people astray right from the pulpit. Look at the example of Saul of Tarsus, sending Christians to the slaughter up until he meets Christ, then being born again becomes the Apostle Paul, imperfect but sanctified.

I thank God Almighty that Discernment is a gift of the Holy Ghost. We can do nothing without the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, for only He is Mighty to save. It is His covenant we must follow. We used to sacrifice specific critters for specific things, then Jesus the Messiah manifested in the flesh, and He bled from every pore for sins our grandchildren's grandchildren have not yet committed... and Christ was lifted up on the cross (like Moses prophesied using the "caduceus" as an added visual) as the Only Worthy and Last Sacrificial Lamb... and He suffered torture and absolute loneliness for every human soul that ever was and will be... And Christ died and was resurrected. The Messiah Jesus LIVES. This is the fulfilment of the OT covenant.

For example, the elaborate church decor of the OT (as modern Orthodoxy likes) is now acceptable at two or three of us at a Scripture study anywhere on this beautiful World, or a lakeside fish-fry like in Saint John 21 (verse 14 highlight for establishing Church services on Sunday).

Let us focus on what God Almighty needs us all to do, chapter and verse, or as commonly called the Great Commission. Lord have mercy on us.

Gothedral said:

Only anti-Christ insist the OT covenant is still in effect by calling Christ anything but the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and Love, and the Redeemer.

One thing that comes to mind is Revelation 2:9. People like this, who say they follow the Messiah, but act satanic, can and will lead people astray right from the pulpit. Look at the example of Saul of Tarsus, sending Christians to the slaughter up until he meets Christ, then being born again becomes the Apostle Paul, imperfect but sanctified.

I thank God Almighty that Discernment is a gift of the Holy Ghost. We can do nothing without the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, for only He is Mighty to save. It is His covenant we must follow. We used to sacrifice specific critters for specific things, then Jesus the Messiah manifested in the flesh, and He bled from every pore for sins our grandchildren's grandchildren have not yet committed... and Christ was lifted up on the cross (like Moses prophesied using the "caduceus" as an added visual) as the Only Worthy and Last Sacrificial Lamb... and He suffered torture and absolute loneliness for every human soul that ever was and will be... And Christ died and was resurrected. The Messiah Jesus LIVES. This is the fulfilment of the OT covenant.

For example, the elaborate church decor of the OT (as modern Orthodoxy likes) is now acceptable at two or three of us at a Scripture study anywhere on this beautiful World, or a lakeside fish-fry like in Saint John 21 (verse 14 highlight for establishing Church services on Sunday).

Let us focus on what God Almighty needs us all to do, chapter and verse, or as commonly called the Great Commission. Lord have mercy on us.

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Thanks

I would offer. In one way the letter of the law "death" as it is written is needed to represent the temporal things seen the historical "Thou shall not, or you are dead"

It leads to the new life born of the Spirit.

A little salt with the sacrifice. Salt represents judgment the sting of death to remind us of death.

Mark 9:49 For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt. Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his saltness, wherewith will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another.

No salt no peace (gospel)

Today many would like to rid the reminders like those who would forbid the confederacy flag or the ten commandments from the courthouse.

1 John 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

Rom 3:19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

The only way to get out from under the law is by having faith in Jesus as your savior otherwise you are still under the law.

Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT CONTINUE IN ALL THINGS WHICH ARE WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO DO THEM."

Works based salvation keeps a person under the law.

Gal 3:13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE"),

Gal 3:24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Curtis said:

The only way to get out from under the law is by having faith in Jesus as your savior otherwise you are still under the law.

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They may still practice the law but that does not mean its in effect, they have been fulfilled in Jesus, you are either a believer or not a believer.


the law ended according to Jesus after John.

Luke 16:16​

“The Law and the Prophets were until John; since then the good news of the kingdom of God is preached, and everyone forces his way into it.


Jesus came and fulfilled the law, Praise Jesus

Matthew 5:17​

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

the law served its purpose for the time God wanted it to, and now is passed away obsolete for. This is the literally part of what Jesus came to do.

Dave M said:

They may still practice the law but that does not mean its in effect, they have been fulfilled in Jesus, you are either a believer or not a believer.


the law ended according to Jesus after John.

Luke 16:16​

“The Law and the Prophets were until John; since then the good news of the kingdom of God is preached, and everyone forces his way into it.


Jesus came and fulfilled the law, Praise Jesus

Matthew 5:17​

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

the law served its purpose for the time God wanted it to, and now is passed away obsolete for. This is the literally part of what Jesus came to do.

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Rom_2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

Which means those who do not know the law but do things contrary to the law shall die without the law, and those who know the law and trespass the things in the law shall be judged by the law.

Dave M said:

not sure exactly when, but sometimes after Christ finished his work on the cross, my guess would be at the same time the curtain was torn

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But the curtain was torn before the Resurrection, and the epistle named Hebrews was written well after both of those events, so the rescission of any OT covenant ought to have been presented as completed, done and gone, not "soon to be vanishing."

I've wondered if the author was referring to the destruction of the Temple, but none of the various OT covenants have a physical temple as part of their requirements. And the covenant with Abraham was everlasting.

- Genesis 17:7 KJV

The above is why Paul strove so hard to present Gentiles as being adopted or grafted into Israel and that Jesus was the seed for this everlasting covenant. But that redefines (or clarifies) the Covenant, it doesn't present it as obsolete and ending. How could one end an everlasting covenant?

It's also why circumcision became an existential theological crisis in Acts 15.

- Genesis 17:9-11 KJV

How could the gentiles share in this "Jesus"-everlasting-covenant if they weren't circumcised? Well it got spiritualized as the circumcision of one's "heart" (cf. Rom. 2:19) - whatever that means since it was never really defined.

This "conundrum" is why no scholar actually thinks that Paul wrote Hebrews. Paul would never have needed to present Gentiles as a graft or as adopted people into the covenant of Israel if the covenant ended and a completely new one started (cf. Rom. 11:17).

I've spent some time looking at καινός and חָדָשׁ to see if these words translated as NEW, meant completely new or "re"new, as in "I will renew my covenant" but with changes. However that doesn't work with Greek. It can work with Hebrew, in that H2319 literally meant "fresh bread." "I will refresh my covenant" but with changes. These changes being the "circumcision" of the baptism of the Holy Spirit, as opposed to a medical procedure.

It's sill a bit of a stretch, in that one is to toss out the old bread (stale) and then only eat "new" bread. HOWEVER, Bible Hub's version of Strong's Concordance for H2318 gives -

renew, repair
A primitive root; to be new; causatively, to rebuild -- renew, repair.

And there's only one small (very, very small) jot to distinguish the two words, so without a deep dive into the manuscripts I ought not to make a conclusion.

Agape,
Rhema

Gothedral said:

Only anti-Christ insist the OT covenant is still in effect by calling Christ anything but the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and Love, and the Redeemer.

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Glad to hear that Paul was an anti-Christ. Why strive so hard to present Gentiles as being grafted into the Covenant of Abraham if the covenant is of no effect?

BTW, there is more than one covenant in the OT. One with Noah, one with Abraham, one with Israel (through Moses).

You might want to think things through a bit more.

Gothedral said:

We used to sacrifice specific critters for specific things,

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Really? Where did that come from?

- Jeremiah 7:22 NRSV

I rather don't think that God wants a human sacrifice offered up to him.

Kindly,
Rhema

Rhema said:

But the curtain was torn before the Resurrection, and the epistle named Hebrews was written well after both of those events

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Do you know that at 80, I still cannot find that clock scale you use authoritatively here in the Scriptures?

to good not hare in this thread, copy and paste from another thread on tribulation

"Then you’re preaching another gospel.
Because if the Mosaic covenant is still in force for anyone — Jew or Gentile — then Christ died for nothing.

Hebrews 8:13 couldn’t be clearer:
“In speaking of a new covenant, he has made the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.”

And Romans 10:4?
“For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.”

There is no parallel track where Jews are saved by the law while Gentiles are saved by grace. That’s the heresy of Dual Covenant Theology — and Paul explicitly condemns it in Galatians 1:6–9.

There is no active Mosaic covenant today.
Christ fulfilled it and nailed it to the cross (Colossians 2:14).
Any Jew still clinging to the law is under a curse (Galatians 3:10).
God does not have two plans — one for Jews, one for the Church. That’s a blasphemous distortion of the Gospel (Galatians 1:6–9).

Let’s be clear:
Jesus didn’t come to start two churches.
He came to gather one flock under one Shepherd (John 10:16).
That flock includes all who believe in Him — Jew and Gentile alike.

Romans 11 does not mean God will go back to the old covenant. It says unbelieving Jews can be grafted back in only if they believe in Christ (Rom. 11:23). Not by Torah. Not by Moses. Not by surviving Jacob’s Trouble.
There’s no “special deal” for ethnic Israel. (Not to mention the fact that finding a real, genetic “ethnic Biblical Jew” today would be about as rare as a Bigfoot sighting.)
Bottom line, without Christ, they are under a curse — just like every Gentile.

Your claim that Matthew is “for the Jews, not the Church” is pure Scofield fiction, heresy, and blasphemy."

Blasphemy — because it dares to divide Christ’s own words from His Body.
Heresy — because it teaches two separate peoples of God when Scripture says there is one new man in Christ (Eph. 2:15).
Fiction — because there is no verse in Matthew that says, “This is only for ethnic Jews.” Jesus spoke to His disciples — the foundation of the Church (Eph. 2:20) — and said, “Teach them to obey everything I have commanded you.” (Matt. 28:20)

So unless you’re ready to rip the Sermon on the Mount out of your Bible and hand it to the Sanhedrin — stop dividing the Word of God like a false teacher with a Scofield scalpel.

Paul told Timothy that “All Scripture is God-breathed… profitable for instruction” (2 Tim. 3:16). Jesus’ words in Matthew are not for some other group — they’re for us.

And the 144,000?
They’re not evangelizing some "left-behind" world. That whole framework is built on an eisegetical fantasy — not the text. Nowhere does Revelation say the 144,000 are preaching during a 7-year tribulation. You read that into the text because Scofield Dispensationalism told you to.

There is one covenant, one faith, one baptism, and one people of God (Ephesians 4:5).

Anything else — especially the idea that Jews are still under Moses — is another gospel; one written in Hell.

And Paul’s warning is crystal clear:
“If anyone preaches a different gospel… let him be accursed.”
— Galatians 1:9

Don’t mix law and grace.
Don’t resurrect covenants Christ fulfilled.
Don’t divide what God has made one.

Dave M said:

They may still practice the law but that does not mean its in effect, they have been fulfilled in Jesus, you are either a believer or not a believer.


the law ended according to Jesus after John.

Luke 16:16​

“The Law and the Prophets were until John; since then the good news of the kingdom of God is preached, and everyone forces his way into it.


Jesus came and fulfilled the law, Praise Jesus

Matthew 5:17​

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

the law served its purpose for the time God wanted it to, and now is passed away obsolete for. This is the literally part of what Jesus came to do

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The law and prophets are another way of saying sola scriptura.

Christ came to fulfill them not make them to no effect.

The law continues to serve it purpose of leading to Christ.

Rhema said:

Glad to hear that Paul was an anti-Christ. Why strive so hard to present Gentiles as being grafted into the Covenant of Abraham if the covenant is of no effect?

BTW, there is more than one covenant in the OT. One with Noah, one with Abraham, one with Israel (through Moses).

You might want to think things through a bit more.

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I would offer .

Peter and not Paul was used to demonstrate an antichrist which is another teaching authority other than all things written in the law and prophets. (sola scriptura)

Peter and not Paul was moved by the lying spirit of Satan that works in a legion of false prophets, bringing false prophecy, oral traditions of dying mankind.

Peter spoke the false prophecy not Paul. Peter rebuked the unseen Holy Father and forbid Jesus the Son of man Jesus from doing the will of the unseen Holy Father. The Holy Father rebuked Peter not Paul.

Mathew 16:22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

Abraham as one of many generations of second born used to represent the doctrine mankind must be born again. The spiritual seed Christ.

The born-again doctrine began being demonstrated in Genesis with Abel meaning vanity the second born, Cain the firstborn meaning acquired possession .They were thinking Cain was the seed as a way back into fellowship, seeing the vanity they name the second born Abel .

God replace the second born Abel with another second born Enos and it was at that time (the demonstration the appointment of another Enos that mankind could hear God to call upon the name of the Lord.

Genesis 4:25:26And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed (singular Christ) instead of Abel, whom Cain slew.;And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name (power) of the Lord.

Not a first century principle but the foundation of the bride. Mankind must be born again from above. . wonder or marvel not but rather believe prophecy as it is written

.

th1bill said:

Do you know that at 80, I still cannot find that clock scale you use authoritatively here in the Scriptures?

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You could try reading your bible.... It's somewhat obvious that the crucifixion came before the resurrection, no? And how could the book of Hebrews be written before these things happened?

Truly, Bill, I don't understand what your gripe is this time. (Though I rarely do.)

Agape,
Rhema

This is the bottom line here..

You want to cling to the Old Covenant? Fine — but just remember what Jesus said: ‘This is My blood of the New Covenant, poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.’ (Matt. 26:28)

So either His blood replaced the Law, or you’re still dragging around the corpse of a 2000 year old covenant He already fulfilled.

Lets be clear —
If the Old Covenant were still active, then Christ died for absolutely nothing.
If Moses can still save you, then the Cross was a mistake.
If animal sacrifices and temple ordinances are still in effect, then you’ve rejected the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world (John 1:29).

You don’t get to mix covenants.
You don’t get to wear Christ’s name while sleeping with Sinai.
Jesus fulfilled the Law (Matt. 5:17) — then He nailed it to the Cross (Col. 2:14) and tore the veil in two (Matt. 27:51) so we could walk in by grace — not Law.

You want to rebuild what He tore down?

Then you are no follower of Jesus.

You are a law-worshiper,
a covenant adulterer,
a gospel mutilator —
and you stand condemned by the very Law you pretend to uphold.

Repent — and stop trampling His blood underfoot like it wasn’t enough. (Heb. 10:29)”

Dave M said:

"Then you’re preaching another gospel.
Because if the Mosaic covenant is still in force for anyone — Jew or Gentile — then Christ died for nothing.

Hebrews 8:13 couldn’t be clearer:
“In speaking of a new covenant, he has made the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.”

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I'm rather sure that my point was "Which covenant?" since the book of Hebrews doesn't specify the Mosaic Covenant (i.e. the covenant with Israel). Yet we have the testimony of Jesus:

- Matthew 5:17-19 Howard (revised)

I find it interesting that Paul called himself the "least."

- Ephesians 3:8 KJV

Now remember, Matthew was written after the resurrection, and after 40 days of Jesus teaching the disciples right before the ascension. One would think that the author of Matthew would have made a notation if something so important as the law passing out of existence had occurred. Jesus gave no indication that such would happen.

Dave M said:

There is no active Mosaic covenant today.
Christ fulfilled it and nailed it to the cross (Colossians 2:14).

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The author is sorely mistaken.

- Colossians 2:14 KJV

The "handwriting of ordinances" that had been blotted out are the Rabbinical additions to the TORAH, not the Mosaic Covenant itself, although even in the writings, additions and changes had been made to the TORAH by the scribes, as testified to by Jeremiah:

- Jeremiah 8:8 NRSV

That's why Jesus came to fix it, and provide for the Holy Spirit to fill up people with the TORAH that he taught.

The main element of the TORAH was how to deal with sin and obtain forgiveness. Jesus fixed that part in his teachings (cf. Mat. 6:12 & Luke 11:4) and even Paul (in his early ministry) taught this:

- Acts 13:38-39 NRSV

The true forgiveness of sins is preached by Jesus, not Moses.

Dave M said:

Your claim that Matthew is “for the Jews, not the Church” is pure Scofield fiction, heresy, and blasphemy."

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LOL. It's obvious now where this came from. (But I shouldn't presume.)

Dave M said:

So unless you’re ready to rip the Sermon on the Mount out of your Bible and hand it to the Sanhedrin — stop dividing the Word of God like a false teacher with a Scofield scalpel.

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I totally agree, but how did Jesus say we are to deal with sin in the Sermon on the Mount ?? How do we obtain forgiveness? I'm not sure the original poster could give me a clear answer.

Dave M said:

Paul told Timothy that “All Scripture is God-breathed… profitable for instruction” (2 Tim. 3:16).

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I doubt the poster ever read an accurate translation of this verse.

Dave M said:

And the 144,000?

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I quite often find great relief that Revelation is not in our canon, and hadn't been in your Roman Catholic canon until 393 AD.

Dave M said:

Don’t mix law and grace.

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I wonder if the OP of this statement knows where he got the word "Grace" from, or more precisely where he got the definition of "Grace" from. (Hint... Martin Luther.) The Father is gracious to grant us mercy and forgiveness when we ask.

t was from Grace that the Holy Spirit is imparted to help us obey the Law (of Jesus) - this Law that is written on our hearts.

If the Law is written on our hearts through the Grace of God, then how can these not be "mixed" ??

Dave M said:

Don’t resurrect covenants Christ fulfilled.

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Yeah, ... that's based on a very antinomian (and false) translation. The Greek word PLEROO means to fill in (as a pothole in the road, i.e. fix) or to fill up (as in to pour wine into a cup until it is filled to the top). It doesn't mean to accomplish a set of goals or tick off certain boxes of prophecies.

The mission of Jesus was to both fix the TORAH through his teachings, and provide a way for us to be filled up with the New Wine of the Holy Spirit so that we can (we are enabled) to follow the TORAH of Jesus.

Not much more to add,
Rhema