Why Choose the Church over the Bible

Butch5 · Apr 15, 2025

bdavidc said:
The statement you made sounds noble on the surface, but it exposes a dangerous error already creeping in, questioning the clarity and authority of Scripture itself under the guise of “interpretation.” Let me be direct: the Bible is the Word of God (2 Timothy 3:16-17), and it is not up for revision or redefinition based on anyone’s opinion, whether yours, @Butch5’s, or anyone else's. God does not stutter. Psalm 119:160 declares, “Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth forever.” The Word is not some riddle requiring human opinion to validate its meaning, it is God’s eternal truth revealed to man.

Yes, the Bereans were noble in that they searched the Scriptures daily to confirm that what Paul preached aligned with God’s Word (Acts 17:11). But they weren’t judging the Scripture, they were judging the teaching by the Scripture. There is a vast difference. You’re twisting the example of the Bereans to suggest that the Bible is unclear or requires personal reinterpretation. That’s not what they did. They didn’t search the Scriptures to change what was written, they searched to make sure what was being taught matched what God had already said.

Sola Scriptura, Scripture alone, is the standard by which all teachings and opinions must be tested. Not feelings. Not tradition. Not majority opinion. Proverbs 30:5-6 warns, “Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him. Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.” So if you’re already questioning or modifying the Word of God based on human reasoning or group consensus, you’ve already started falling into error.

As for me, I will decide what I believe and how I act by the unchanging Word of God, not by your or @Butch5’s attempt to reinterpret it. God's Word doesn’t need your edits. It needs your submission.

Are you really this naive? Do you really believe that your understanding alone constitutes the word of God? Is it even in the realm of possibility that you may misunderstand something?

You, just like everyone else, must interpret the text. The Bible doesn't speak to you. It's doesn't say Jesus said xyz and this is what He meant. You must read and interpret just like everyone else. You're claims that you believe the word of God are based in your INTERPETATION. You only believe the word of God if you correctly understand the text. If you misunderstand the text then what you believe is error and not the word of God. As such it behooves each of us to examine the text closely and to reject that which contradicts the text.

I've pointed out things you believe that contradict the text. You didn't reject those held doctrines. Instead you rejected the text. So, please tell me how it is that you say you believe the word of God when those beliefs contradict what is stated in Scripture.

complete · Apr 16, 2025

bdavidc said:
The statement you made sounds noble on the surface, but it exposes a dangerous error already creeping in, questioning the clarity and authority of Scripture itself under the guise of “interpretation.” Let me be direct: the Bible is the Word of God (2 Timothy 3:16-17), and it is not up for revision or redefinition based on anyone’s opinion, whether yours, @Butch5’s, or anyone else's. God does not stutter. Psalm 119:160 declares, “Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth forever.” The Word is not some riddle requiring human opinion to validate its meaning, it is God’s eternal truth revealed to man.

Hello @bdavidc,

I believe the Bible to be the word of God (2 Timothy 3:16-17), I believe it to be the sum of all revelation. I also believe that it should be rightly divided (2 Timothy 2:15), and application made according to it's relevance, taking into consideration to whom it is addressed etc.,

'It will greatly help you to understand scripture if you note - not only what is spoken and written, but of whom and to whom, with what words, at what time, where, to what intent, with what circumstances, considering what goes before and what follows.(Myles Coverdale)

bdavidc said:
Yes, the Bereans were noble in that they searched the Scriptures daily to confirm that what Paul preached aligned with God’s Word (Acts 17:11). But they weren’t judging the Scripture, they were judging the teaching by the Scripture. There is a vast difference. You’re twisting the example of the Bereans to suggest that the Bible is unclear or requires personal reinterpretation. That’s not what they did. They didn’t search the Scriptures to change what was written, they searched to make sure what was being taught matched what God had already said.

* I am sorry that you believe that I have twisted the example of the Bereans, for that certainly was not my intention: for I agree that the reason for the Bereans search was for the reason you have given. To make sure that what was being taught matched what was written in the Old Testament Scriptures

bdavidc said:
Sola Scriptura, Scripture alone, is the standard by which all teachings and opinions must be tested. Not feelings. Not tradition. Not majority opinion. Proverbs 30:5-6 warns, “Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him. Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.” So if you’re already questioning or modifying the Word of God based on human reasoning or group consensus, you’ve already started falling into error.

* I agree.

bdavidc said:
As for me, I will decide what I believe and how I act by the unchanging Word of God, not by your or @Butch5’s attempt to reinterpret it. God's Word doesn’t need your edits. It needs your submission.

I agree, @bdavid. I pray that I will never be guilty of doing that. May God's perfect will be done in both you and I, for His Name and glory's sake.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Garee · Apr 16, 2025

complete said:
Hello @bdavidc,

It is not the Bible or it's content that @Butch5 questions, but man's interpretation of it. That is a justifiable and honourable thing to do, as is shown in Acts 17, and what is spoken of the Berean's who received the word preached with all readiness of mind, but searched the Scriptures daily to ensure that what was being spoken was indeed so. That is the way to ensure the we do not fall into error.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

What makes you think your understanding is not the same as bdaividc ?

Butch5 · Apr 16, 2025

bdavidc said:
The statement you made sounds noble on the surface, but it exposes a dangerous error already creeping in, questioning the clarity and authority of Scripture itself under the guise of “interpretation.” Let me be direct: the Bible is the Word of God (2 Timothy 3:16-17), and it is not up for revision or redefinition based on anyone’s opinion, whether yours, @Butch5’s, or anyone else's. God does not stutter. Psalm 119:160 declares, “Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth forever.” The Word is not some riddle requiring human opinion to validate its meaning, it is God’s eternal truth revealed to man.

Yes, the Bereans were noble in that they searched the Scriptures daily to confirm that what Paul preached aligned with God’s Word (Acts 17:11). But they weren’t judging the Scripture, they were judging the teaching by the Scripture. There is a vast difference. You’re twisting the example of the Bereans to suggest that the Bible is unclear or requires personal reinterpretation. That’s not what they did. They didn’t search the Scriptures to change what was written, they searched to make sure what was being taught matched what God had already said.

Sola Scriptura, Scripture alone, is the standard by which all teachings and opinions must be tested. Not feelings. Not tradition. Not majority opinion. Proverbs 30:5-6 warns, “Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him. Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.” So if you’re already questioning or modifying the Word of God based on human reasoning or group consensus, you’ve already started falling into error.

As for me, I will decide what I believe and how I act by the unchanging Word of God, not by your or @Butch5’s attempt to reinterpret it. God's Word doesn’t need your edits. It needs your submission.

@bdavidc

I'm not trying to be harsh. I'm pointing out that you're being inconsistent. You told me I should study scholars and then when @Rhema mentioned some scholars you rejected them. That leaves me wondering why I should study scholars. You said you believe in God's word. Calvin believed he did. Wesley believed he did. The OSAS believer claims he believes God's word as does the non-OSAS believer. The Pretribulationist believes he's the one who correctly understands God's word, but so does the Post Tribulationist. All of these, like you, believe that they believe God's word. How can two people with opposing views both be believing God's word?

We all think that what we believe is the truth. However, if we're not willing to challenge what we believe we won't grow.

Garee · May 31, 2025

complete said:
'I call heaven and earth to record this day against you,
that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing:
therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
That thou mayest love the LORD thy God,
and that thou mayest obey His voice,
and that thou mayest cleave unto Him:
for He is thy life, and the length of thy days:
that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers,
to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.'
(Deu 30:19-20)

Hello @Garee,

There is a figure of speech here called 'Deasis' or 'adjuration' - an expression of Feeling by Oath or asseveration. or a calling to witness. The figure is used when the speaker or writer calls God or heaven to witness to the truth of what is said, or to the facts which he states.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Thanks

Feeling what by oath? What does feel by oath mean?

I would think the idea of calling on both heaven and earth is another way of saying calling on the one witness God has spoken "sola scriptura". . written in Christ's book of the law. And not the witness of dying mankind. . oral traditions

Verse 10 previously gives context to what you offered in 19, 20 "I call heaven and earth to record this day"

Deuteronomy 30:10 ;If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the Lord thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law,(sola scriptura) and if thou turn unto the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.

Calling heaven and earth is to hear the words of the book of law (sola scriptura)

Chapter 4 pre-warns believers not to add to sola scriptura "the witness of heaven and earth". Written in the book of Christ's law,

Deuteronomy 4:1-2Now therefore hearken, O Israel, unto the statutes and unto the judgments, which I teach you, for to do them, that ye may live, and go in and possess the land which the Lord God of your fathers giveth you.;Ye shall not add unto the word (living) which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.

Deuteronomy 4:26 I call heaven and earth to witness (sola scriptura) against you this day, that ye shall soon utterly perish from off the land whereunto ye go over Jordan to possess it; ye shall not prolong your days upon it, but shall utterly be destroyed.

complete · Jun 1, 2025

complete said:

'I call heaven and earth to record this day against you,
that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing:
therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
That thou mayest love the LORD thy God,
and that thou mayest obey His voice,
and that thou mayest cleave unto Him:
for He is thy life, and the length of thy days:
that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers,
to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.'
(Deu 30:19-20)

Hello @Garee,

There is a figure of speech here called 'Deasis' or 'adjuration' - an expression of Feeling by Oath or asseveration. or a calling to witness. The figure is used when the speaker or writer calls God or heaven to witness to the truth of what is said, or to the facts which he states.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Garee said:
Thanks

Feeling what by oath? What does feel by oath mean?

* 'I call heaven and earth to record this day against you. (Deuteronomy 30:19).
This is an expression of feeling, which is indicated by the use of an oath in this case, calling upon God to witness the truth of what is being said, or done, as a witness that it had been said within the hearing of the children of Israel.

Garee said:
I would think the idea of calling on both heaven and earth is another way of saying calling on the one witness God has spoken "sola scriptura". . written in Christ's book of the law. And not the witness of dying mankind. . oral traditions

Verse 10 previously gives context to what you offered in 19, 20 "I call heaven and earth to record this day"

* Yes, it does.

Garee said:
Deuteronomy 30:10 ;If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the Lord thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law,(sola scriptura) and if thou turn unto the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.

Calling heaven and earth is to hear the words of the book of law (sola scriptura)

'And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee,
the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee,
and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations,
whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee,
And shalt return unto the LORD thy God,
and shalt obey His voice according to all that I command thee this day,
thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;
That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee,
and will return and gather thee from all the nations,
whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.'
(Deu 30:1-3)

In this case, God, through Moses, is giving the children of Israel instruction regarding their way back to God, in the event of them being driven into captivity due to their disobedience. These warnings and instructions are what Moses calls on heaven and earth to witness, because of their importance and gravity. For these words would act as a witness against Israel should they not take heed. (Deut. 31:28). See also Deut. 4:26; 30:19 & 31:28.

Garee said:
Chapter 4 pre-warns believers not to add to sola scriptura "the witness of heaven and earth". Written in the book of Christ's law,

Deuteronomy 4:1-2Now therefore hearken, O Israel, unto the statutes and unto the judgments, which I teach you, for to do them, that ye may live, and go in and possess the land which the Lord God of your fathers giveth you.;Ye shall not add unto the word (living) which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.

Deuteronomy 4:26 I call heaven and earth to witness (sola scriptura) against you this day, that ye shall soon utterly perish from off the land whereunto ye go over Jordan to possess it; ye shall not prolong your days upon it, but shall utterly be destroyed.

'Now therefore hearken, O Israel,
unto the statutes and unto the judgments, which I teach you,
for to do them, that ye may live, and go in and possess the land
which the LORD God of your fathers giveth you.
Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you,
neither shall ye diminish ought from it,
that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God
which I command you.'
(Deu 4:1-2)

'Take heed unto yourselves,
lest ye forget the covenant of the LORD your God,
which He made with you, and make you a graven image,
or the likeness of any thing, which the LORD thy God hath forbidden thee.
For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.
When thou shalt beget children, and children's children,
and ye shall have remained long in the land,
and shall corrupt yourselves, and make a graven image, or the likeness of any thing,
and shall do evil in the sight of the LORD thy God, to provoke Him to anger:
I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day,
that ye shall soon utterly perish from off the land whereunto ye go over Jordan to possess it;
ye shall not prolong your days upon it, but shall utterly be destroyed.
And the LORD shall scatter you among the nations,
and ye shall be left few in number among the heathen, whither the LORD shall lead you.'
(Deu 4:23-27)

* This was spoken to the children of Israel prior to them entering the land of promise: not to believers in the Lord Jesus Christ in this age of grace.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

complete · Jun 1, 2025

Garee said:
What makes you think your understanding is not the same as bdaividc ?

Hello @Garee,

I do not know what @bdavidc's understanding is, so I cannot comment upon it. I was not making that comparison.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

Garee · Jun 1, 2025

complete said:
* 'I call heaven and earth to record this day against you. (Deuteronomy 30:19).
This is an expression of feeling, which is indicated by the use of an oath in this case, calling upon God to witness the truth of what is being said, or done, as a witness that it had been said within the hearing of the children of Israel.

Thanks for the reply

I would offer another view. in a parable

'I call heaven and earth to record this day against you verse 30 leads towards Deuteronomy 32 heaven and earth speak of inspiration not earthly of the devil.

Heaven and earth. The doctrines of Christ that fall like rain of dew bringing new born-again life . Called the water of the word the doctrines by which husband are to wash the wives as Christ washes us the church .

Deuteronomy 32Give ear, O ye heavens, and I will speak; and hear, O earth, the words of my mouth.;My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass:

Heaven not seen and earth seen. . the whole picture

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven (the eternal not seen) and the earth.(The temporal seen)

Matthew 6:10Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth (The temporal seen), as it is in heaven.(the eternal not seen)

Matthew 11:25At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven (the eternal not seen) and earth,(The temporal seen) because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

Bill · Jun 22, 2025

It's kind of a silly statement to say choose a church over a Bible. But in this day and age I'm sure there are such things as that although I have never seen it personally.

I mean if you think about it it's kind of like hand in hand pretty much like a egg in a sense the egg cannot exist without the shell and the chick inside the egg well it's there too right.

So how can you have a church without a Bible. But like I said in this weird time that we live in I'm sure there's all sorts of things going on

Leumas · Jun 22, 2025

Butch5 said:
I would like to have a serious discussion as to why Christians choose Church doctrine over the Scriptures. I've said may times that when Scripture runs up against Church doctrine, Church doctrine always wins. This should not be. The Scriptures should "ALWAYS" trump Church doctrine. So, I'd like to have a serious and honest conversation about this, and why it happens. We've discussed the Trinity doctrine so let's give that a break. Let's take the Heavenly Destiny doctrine. Christians claim that they go to Heaven when they die. That is stated "NOWHERE" in Scripture. On the contrary what is stated is Jesus telling the apostles that where He was going, they could not come. So, If Jesus explicitly told the disciples that they could not go to Heaven. Why do Christians believe and teach that people go to Heaven when they die?

You really can't be serious?

These Christians today
Are nothing but a bunch of clowns.
They can't even differentiate
Between what's real and fake.
Or right or wrong
Or good and evil

God and the devil.

Bill · Jun 22, 2025

Leumas said:
You really can't be serious?

These Christians today
Are nothing but a bunch of clowns.
They can't even differentiate
Between what's real and fake.
Or right or wrong
Or good and evil

God and the devil.

I can differentiate between God and the devil.

I think a greater problem right here is knowing what is true and what is not true. Because even with yourself, and I'm not coming down on you by the way. With yourself you have a view that is incorrect. You either have had a really bad experience at a church or that you doubt everything plainly about God there's something there that's stopping you from receiving God's love. It's why you're so argumentative towards forgiveness in one thread, and prayer in another thread that I have replied to you in.

All these things make each part of the body of Christ unique. And I'm not talking about the physical attributes of Jesus I'm talking about the body in the sense of the different religions of Christianity, all with the same core beliefs but all having some different peculiarities about them.

Much in the way that a hand might look at a foot and say boy you look weird down there or the ear might say something to the hand or the eye say something to the ear and so on. Yet all these different Christian groups have one thing in common they all belong to Jesus

Garee · Jun 23, 2025

Leumas said:
You really can't be serious?

These Christians today
Are nothing but a bunch of clowns.
They can't even differentiate
Between what's real and fake.
Or right or wrong
Or good and evil

God and the devil.

Hi I would offer. An Amen to your love of defending the faith but be careful if we overdue what is required, we can lose the little honey. He does give some self-satisfaction (lukewarm comfort )

Coming from a class clown (slow learner) I was afraid to raise hand because I did not have a proper understanding and sat in the back

LOL My wife is still teaching me it's only funny when two people are laughing.

I would be careful in using the word clown with brothers and sisters . I hated English and reading it was pretty much limited to comic books. Like Lone Ranger the masked or hidden man and Tonto his messenger(apostle)LOL. Today I have a new dynamic dual the Holy Father and the Son of man Jesus (apostle)

Christ is the confidence of the slower learners He promises he will never leave or forsake

Philippians 1:5-6;For your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now;;Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Revelation 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

Welcome!

Why Choose the Church over the Bible

Butch5

Active

complete

Loyal

Garee

Active

Butch5

Active

Garee

Active

complete

Loyal

complete

Loyal

Garee

Active

Bill

Loyal

Leumas

Member

Bill

Loyal

Garee

Active

Members Online

Trending content

Newest members

Community Stats