Active
Very well,I will say no more on the subject.
Except that,at one time, it was a sign of the Holy Spirit,today it is the sign of a weak Christian needing a crutch to stand
Pentecostal Christians worldwide under the baptize of the Holy Spirit
Very well,I will say no more on the subject.
Except that,at one time, it was a sign of the Holy Spirit,today it is the sign of a weak Christian needing a crutch to stand
Loyal
"at one time"? What changed, and when did it change?
"sign of a weak Christian needing a crutch". I'll actually take that one. I am weak, and I'll take all the help I can get.
Psa 54:4; Behold, God is my helper; The Lord is the sustainer of my soul.
John 14:16; "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever;
John 14:26; "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.
John 15:26; "When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me,
John 16:7; "But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.
Heb 13:6; so that we confidently say, "THE LORD IS MY HELPER, I WILL NOT BE AFRAID. WHAT WILL MAN DO TO ME?"
Psa 30:10; "Hear, O LORD, and be gracious to me; O LORD, be my helper."
Luke 24:49; "And behold, I am sending forth the promise of My Father upon you; but you are to stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high."
Acts 1:8; but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth."
Loyal
I have to wonder, for those who believe that the gifts of the Spirit have ceased.
1Cor 12:5; And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord.
1Cor 12:6; There are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons.
1Cor 12:7; But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.
1Cor 12:8; For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit;
1Cor 12:9; to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit,
1Cor 12:10; and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues.
1Cor 12:11; But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.
If the gifts of the Holy Spirit are no longer relevant, does that mean that the fruits are no longer relevant either?
Gal 5:22; But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
Gal 5:23; gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
Gal 5:24; Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
Gal 5:25; If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.
Also, if the gifts are a sign for people to see, is the fruit not a sign to see? For example I can usually tell if someone is kind, joyful, peaceful, in some cases it's so evident that
I have asked them if they are a Christian. was that because of an outward sign?
Jesus said we are the salt of the Earth.
Matt 5:13; "You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt has become tasteless, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled under foot by men.
Mark 9:50; "Salt is good; but if the salt becomes unsalty, with what will you make it salty again? Have salt in yourselves, and be at peace with one another."
Luke 14:34; "Therefore, salt is good; but if even salt has become tasteless, with what will it be seasoned?
Jesus said we are the light of the Earth.
Matt 5:14; "You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden;
Matt 5:15; nor does anyone light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on the lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house.
Matt 5:16; "Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.
We are supposed to be different, people should be able to look at us and tell we are different. Our light, and our salt should change the world.
A quote attributed to St Francis of Assisi says, "Preach the gospel; Use words if necessary". Meaning the way, you live your life should show people you are a Christian.
Is that an outward sign?
If we should avoid the gifts of the Spirit because "they are an outward sign". Then should we avoid the fruit of the Spirit? Should we avoid being salt and light? Should we avoid loving one another?
John 13:35; "By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."
Should we avoid loving one another, it says people will see this and know you are a follower of Jesus. We wouldn't want any outward signs now, would we?
Mark 16:17; "These signs will accompany those who have believed: in My name they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues;
Mark 16:18; they will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover."
1Cor 12:5; And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord.
1Cor 12:6; There are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons.
1Cor 12:7; But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.
1Cor 12:8; For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit;
1Cor 12:9; to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit,
1Cor 12:10; and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues.
1Cor 12:11; But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.
If the gifts of the Holy Spirit are no longer relevant, does that mean that the fruits are no longer relevant either?
Gal 5:22; But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
Gal 5:23; gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
Gal 5:24; Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
Gal 5:25; If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.
Also, if the gifts are a sign for people to see, is the fruit not a sign to see? For example I can usually tell if someone is kind, joyful, peaceful, in some cases it's so evident that
I have asked them if they are a Christian. was that because of an outward sign?
Jesus said we are the salt of the Earth.
Matt 5:13; "You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt has become tasteless, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled under foot by men.
Mark 9:50; "Salt is good; but if the salt becomes unsalty, with what will you make it salty again? Have salt in yourselves, and be at peace with one another."
Luke 14:34; "Therefore, salt is good; but if even salt has become tasteless, with what will it be seasoned?
Jesus said we are the light of the Earth.
Matt 5:14; "You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden;
Matt 5:15; nor does anyone light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on the lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house.
Matt 5:16; "Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.
We are supposed to be different, people should be able to look at us and tell we are different. Our light, and our salt should change the world.
A quote attributed to St Francis of Assisi says, "Preach the gospel; Use words if necessary". Meaning the way, you live your life should show people you are a Christian.
Is that an outward sign?
If we should avoid the gifts of the Spirit because "they are an outward sign". Then should we avoid the fruit of the Spirit? Should we avoid being salt and light? Should we avoid loving one another?
John 13:35; "By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."
Should we avoid loving one another, it says people will see this and know you are a follower of Jesus. We wouldn't want any outward signs now, would we?
Mark 16:17; "These signs will accompany those who have believed: in My name they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues;
Mark 16:18; they will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover."
Active
True.
Also accurate.
Accurate. You ALREADY HAVE the Holy Spirit indwelling, and the "Baptism in the Holy Spirit is the Spirit ON / UPON the born again person. It has nothing to do with "Salvation". It's the same as what happened in the OLD Testament for folks like Samson, Elijah, Isaiah, etc. who had the Holy Spirit come upon them to perform ministry of one sort or another.
True in the case of becoming "Born AGain" If you're not INDWELLED by the Holy SPirit, you're NOT a Christian at all.
Accurate, NO MAJOR PENTECOSTAL DENOMINATION ties "Tongues with Salvation except the UPCI (United Pentecostals) who are non-trinitarians, and have other theological problems also.
The Assemblies of God are the largest Pentecostal denomination in the world. Here is a statement from their official website.
Loyal
Eph 5:18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;
Eph 5:19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;
Eph 5:20 Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;
Eph 5:19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;
Eph 5:20 Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;
Active
Chuckle!!! Ignorance on display. when you say that: "tongues are the whole Pentecostal doctrine", you demonstrate that you have no concept whatsoever of what Pentecostals / Charismatics believe.
So in your belief system, 1 Cor 14:2 is a LIE??? I wonder how much MORE of the Bible you discard????
Moderator
Staff Member
Greetings,
Firstly, why "Chuckle!!!" ? Is this the right way?
Second, to be fair, much of early pentecostalism did (for a time, at least) push the idea/doctrine that 'speaking in tongues' was/is evidence that a person had been 'baptized in the Holy Ghost' and quite firmly/adamantly put it upon a person that if they did not'speak in tongues', they 'had not received the Holy Ghost (or Holy Spirit for some)' and therefore were not true Christians, i.e. they were not saved AND were rejecting God's gift/blessing and grieving the Spirit.
It was very heavy duty in a lot of pentecostal circles.
Simply because now days people are not so pushy, does not erase from memory how things were.
Guilt, shame, fear, exclusion, etc were projected along with the (then) strong/definite accusation/intimidation that if the person did not 'speak in tongues', they had a devil and/or were possessed and needed deliverance, usually 'ministered' by the very ones who promoted such.
It is little wonder that some are cautious of the pentecostal movement and it's doctrines/teachings and beliefs.
One thing that must be pointed out is that those who claim the infilling of the Spirit ought to communicate with more gentleness and wisdom than the world.
Fruit?
Post in peace
It boils down to your personal conviction (not necessarily correct), believing that you understand all Scripture and anything or anyone that presents their personal conviction (not necessarily correct) that challenges or contradicts or threatens your belief, believes a lie. It goes both ways so as professing Christians made right with God according to His Grace, we need to consider how we interact with each other, especially if we honestly believe the other person/people do not have the Truth... how much should we genuinely care for their salvation and try better to present the Gospel to them... if we care?
Fruit
Post in Peace
Likewise, suggesting someone discards parts of the Bible is a fairly broad accusation that is too often heard from those who are intimidators and who really think they know everything.
Fruit
Post in Peace
Bless you ....><>
PS: this is to everybody, not singling out any particular member, using quoted parts as an example in order to make a point, for all.
Firstly, why "Chuckle!!!" ? Is this the right way?
Second, to be fair, much of early pentecostalism did (for a time, at least) push the idea/doctrine that 'speaking in tongues' was/is evidence that a person had been 'baptized in the Holy Ghost' and quite firmly/adamantly put it upon a person that if they did not'speak in tongues', they 'had not received the Holy Ghost (or Holy Spirit for some)' and therefore were not true Christians, i.e. they were not saved AND were rejecting God's gift/blessing and grieving the Spirit.
It was very heavy duty in a lot of pentecostal circles.
Simply because now days people are not so pushy, does not erase from memory how things were.
Guilt, shame, fear, exclusion, etc were projected along with the (then) strong/definite accusation/intimidation that if the person did not 'speak in tongues', they had a devil and/or were possessed and needed deliverance, usually 'ministered' by the very ones who promoted such.
It is little wonder that some are cautious of the pentecostal movement and it's doctrines/teachings and beliefs.
One thing that must be pointed out is that those who claim the infilling of the Spirit ought to communicate with more gentleness and wisdom than the world.
Fruit?
Post in peace
It boils down to your personal conviction (not necessarily correct), believing that you understand all Scripture and anything or anyone that presents their personal conviction (not necessarily correct) that challenges or contradicts or threatens your belief, believes a lie. It goes both ways so as professing Christians made right with God according to His Grace, we need to consider how we interact with each other, especially if we honestly believe the other person/people do not have the Truth... how much should we genuinely care for their salvation and try better to present the Gospel to them... if we care?
Fruit
Post in Peace
Likewise, suggesting someone discards parts of the Bible is a fairly broad accusation that is too often heard from those who are intimidators and who really think they know everything.
Fruit
Post in Peace
Bless you ....><>
PS: this is to everybody, not singling out any particular member, using quoted parts as an example in order to make a point, for all.
Moderator
Staff Member
Greetings again,
It is worth considering that reading and studying the Scriptures without any preset ideology or slant or indoctrination regarding both 'speaking in tongues' and pentecostalism in general, does not instantaneously or automatically or mathematically result in an interpretation and understanding of Scripture that aligns with pentecostal anything.
When we look for evidence in Scripture to back up a 'doctrine' we usually can find something, no matter what the 'doctrine' is. Anyone who is even slightly aware of the teachings of cults and groups like mormons or jw's, for example, can see this. Same for all other 'religions' that quote certain parts or ideas from the Bible.
It can be difficult to come at Bible reading and study without preconceived or prebelieved indoctrination or belief but it is possible and thoroughly recommended.
Goes for everyone.
Jesus Christ is the Lord
Bless you all ....><>
It is worth considering that reading and studying the Scriptures without any preset ideology or slant or indoctrination regarding both 'speaking in tongues' and pentecostalism in general, does not instantaneously or automatically or mathematically result in an interpretation and understanding of Scripture that aligns with pentecostal anything.
When we look for evidence in Scripture to back up a 'doctrine' we usually can find something, no matter what the 'doctrine' is. Anyone who is even slightly aware of the teachings of cults and groups like mormons or jw's, for example, can see this. Same for all other 'religions' that quote certain parts or ideas from the Bible.
It can be difficult to come at Bible reading and study without preconceived or prebelieved indoctrination or belief but it is possible and thoroughly recommended.
Goes for everyone.
Jesus Christ is the Lord
Bless you all ....><>
Member
I am a Born Again, Ruah indwelt and led Yashua ha'Mashiah believer and follower. I have Gifts of the Spirit that I choose not and I need not brag about. I have been and I am seated in a Baptist Church Family led by a Pastor that prays in Unknown Tongues in his Prayer Closet. Several times, over the years, I have received offers to teach me to speak in Tongues. My response remains beyond refute, "If Yahova will have me speak in Unknown Tongues, there is nothing in this world that could ever stop me from doing that.
If our God needs us to contain anything special, He knew we needed that gift before He created the Time/Space Continuum and included that gift before they were born. The very idea that a Born Again Believer should need any human to instruct them into receiving any Gift of Ruah should worry any Yahova fearing Child of God.
If our God needs us to contain anything special, He knew we needed that gift before He created the Time/Space Continuum and included that gift before they were born. The very idea that a Born Again Believer should need any human to instruct them into receiving any Gift of Ruah should worry any Yahova fearing Child of God.
Active
CHuckle!!!! Just another Pentehostile!!!
Moderator
Staff Member
Dear Brother,
A crutch to stand? Yep, that's how most non-believers see us as needing a God/Jesus. Who without which, I could not stand for the sin in my life. \o/
Gosh, people see the Holy Spirit as many things, and some even as you say, even some believing it as a sign/confirmation of their salvation!
At least you acknowledge that it was valid at one time, and like the gifts of the Spirit valid for a sign back in the early church, and though you believe there must have been a cut off, whether it was the end of Apostolic succession, or the completion of Scripture/Bible as we know it, I can't say for certain. But be that as it may, because someone who believes in the continuance of this Holy Spirit gift and continues to believe it is given, is no reason to believe it to be a weakness instead of a strength or either for that matter. Rather a blessing if so. It is what it is brother! Looking at the gifts as something to compare now to then, to whenever, can lead to jealousies, envy which is not something the Body of Christ, should have without asking for forgiveness or strength to overcome!
Always remember that what we do is not by our own power but of God! So, always give Glory to God Brother Lentz.
With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
\o/
<><
Active
I'm not a Pentecostal and I'm not against speaking in tongues, although I don't have that gift.
The point I want to make is what lentz alluded to. All the great theologians, the ones whose work I've read, agree the baptism of the Holy Spirit is the moment of salvation that Paul spoke of in Col. 2. It's being baptized into Christ spiritually, an operation of God.
This is what it was before the Pentecostal movement came along and gave it a new meaning. I has caused much damage, confusing many on what the baptism of the Holy Spirit really is.
Loyal
And yet Pentecostals are more scripturally based on this. Of all five instances of people being baptized in the Holy Spirit in Acts, none of them happened at the instance of salvation.
You've obviously never read Smith-Wigglesworth, Derek Prince, David Wilkerson or John Hagee.
Acts 8:14; Now when the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent them Peter and John,
Acts 8:15; who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit.
Acts 8:16; For He had not yet fallen upon any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Acts 19:2 He said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" And they said to him, "No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit."
Acts 19:3 And he said, "Into what then were you baptized?" And they said, "Into John's baptism."
Acts 10:1; Now there was a man at Caesarea named Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian cohort,
Acts 10:2; a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, and gave many alms to the Jewish people and prayed to God continually.
Acts 10:44; While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message.
Acts 10:45; All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.
It would seem that those who believe in the baptism of the Holy Spirit at the instant of salvation are the ones who are confused.
Acts 9:8; Saul got up from the ground, and though his eyes were open, he could see nothing; and leading him by the hand, they brought him into Damascus.
Acts 9:9; And he was three days without sight, and neither ate nor drank.
Acts 9:17; So Ananias departed and entered the house, and after laying his hands on him said, "Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road by which you were coming, has sent me so that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit."
Luke 11:13; "If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him?"
Active
Many of us disagree with Mr. Wigglesworth. What happened at Pentecost in Acts 2 was not a baptism, it was a filling!
When John the Baptist said, "He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire" is speaking of being baptized by the Holy Spirit in the spiritual realm as the old Theologians have said before the Pentecostal movement came along.
Loyal
There is a debate about when Pentecostalism started. Obviously it started on the original day of Pentecost in Acts 2.
But there are at least 3 days of Pentecost mentioned in the Bible.
Acts 2:1; When the day of Pentecost had come, they were all together in one place.
Acts 20:16; For Paul had decided to sail past Ephesus so that he would not have to spend time in Asia; for he was hurrying to be in Jerusalem, if possible, on the day of Pentecost.
1Cor 16:8; But I will remain in Ephesus until Pentecost;
We know Paul wasn't even saved when Acts 2 happened.
A lot of people give credence to the Azusa Street Revival in 1906. Still others say it started with the Quakers and Shakers in 17th Century.
Do you know why they "quaked and shaked" and were often called "holy rollers"?
But it's possible there were other movements before these.
But there are at least 3 days of Pentecost mentioned in the Bible.
Acts 2:1; When the day of Pentecost had come, they were all together in one place.
Acts 20:16; For Paul had decided to sail past Ephesus so that he would not have to spend time in Asia; for he was hurrying to be in Jerusalem, if possible, on the day of Pentecost.
1Cor 16:8; But I will remain in Ephesus until Pentecost;
We know Paul wasn't even saved when Acts 2 happened.
A lot of people give credence to the Azusa Street Revival in 1906. Still others say it started with the Quakers and Shakers in 17th Century.
Do you know why they "quaked and shaked" and were often called "holy rollers"?
But it's possible there were other movements before these.
Loyal
As many of us disagree with other theologians, (ask my opinion of John Calvin, sometime) but even so. Discounting Acts 2, which was admittedly a special one time event in many ways. ( tongues of fire, a mighty rushing wind, etc.. )
You would also have to discount the other 4 passages I have given above.
Besides, do you believe that out of the 120 people in the upper room, none of them believed in Jesus before Acts 2?
Active
You can carry on with the confusion, pretending a baptism took place at Acts 2 when in reality it was the Holy Spirit coming in a new dimension to dwell in man permanently, as promised.
Loyal
OK fine, for the sake of this discussion, I concede Acts 2. What about the other four passages in post #53, you have been ignoring them. All of which, happened 'after' Acts 2.
Active
I guess you're speaking of the account with Cornelius. Is that what you want me to address or what?
Loyal
The Samaritans in Acts 8, who had already been baptized in water, so they must have already been believers. But they hadn't received the baptism of the Holy Spirit yet.
The Disciples at Ephesus in Acts 19, who had also already been baptized in water, they also must have been believers. But they hadn't received the baptism of the Holy Spirit yet.
And Saul who became Paul who met Jesus on the road to Damascus, and was blind for 3 days. But didn't receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit until he met Ananias.
.. and yes, Cornelius also, who had been a believer for some times, but didn't receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit until he met Peter.