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What to expect in hell

What to expect in hell

  • Annihilation - Instant destruction

    Votes: 6 20.7%

  • Universalism - Suffering for a while and then united with Jesus

    Votes: 1 3.4%

  • Eternal torment - Limited suffering, not such a bad place, mostly pet friendly

    Votes: 1 3.4%

  • Eternal torment - limited suffering, a horrible environment, no pets

    Votes: 1 3.4%

  • Eternal torment - torturous, excruciating pain and suffering, no pets

    Votes: 21 72.4%

  • Other

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Total voters
    29
K
Member

KerimF

#681
Hi All,

The real meaning of hell, as revealed by Jesus, opposes the main interests of those who are created to play the powerful rich deceivers and have to control their multitudes by fear (like the existence of a 'torturing' place as hell, for example).

For this, let us revise attentively the common point in Jesus' sayings below in describing the ‘Hell Fire’:
[1] “And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.”
[2] “Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.”
[3] “As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.”
[4] “Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.”
[5] “If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.”

I hear in them just ‘burning things'; things that became not useful anymore... much like it is done on earth to return things, no more useful to anything, to their raw state. And there is no sign of torture or the like in these sayings, right?

So, a rational person concludes that Jesus’ Hell simply refers to the returning back to the state of void (state before birth). In other words, one’s living body is destroyed in ‘hell’ at its death (back to its raw elements). And one’s soul could also be destroyed in ‘hell’ (as if it didn’t exist) when a human didn’t have the chance, anytime in his life, to feed his soul by living God’s Unconditional Love towards some others; by opposing/defeating, his natural robotic nature guided by pre-programmed instructions, embedded in his living flesh, as it is the case of all living things.

On the other hand, let us note that there are also sayings, on the Gospel, in which Jesus refers to hell as a place of torture or punishment. But this hell's image of torture/punishment is not supported by Jesus by using earthly examples as He did for the 'Everlasting Fire' or 'Hell Fire' (above). The main reason for which these verses were also added on the Gospel is off topic here (after all, it is clear to many of you, I guess)

Let us recall that punishment needs a law to be applied. A law is always ‘limited’ by a well-defined set of rules. And when someone disobeys a rule, the judge is forced by ‘his limited well-defined law’ to punish him. Should I see such an earthly judge in Jesus or my Father in Heaven?

God (The One Loving Will of my Father in Heaven and Jesus, unified by the Holy Spirit) created the world by love and for love. If this is true (it is true, to me in the least) and since humans are all forced (beyond their will) to exist in the time/space realm temporarily, there should be no losers (just, from dust to dust), and possible few winners (from dust to God’s Realm of Love). This why Jesus, in person, came/incarnated to show us clearly (since no man can do it) how living God’s Unconditional Love (on earth, as it is in Heaven) towards all others, good or evil, is the gate to God’s Realm.

But please don’t worry. The notion of a torturing hell (after death) will be taught always and everywhere. We all know that most parents around the world don’t mind controlling their innocent little kids by fear in order to get their obedience in peace. They just need to tell them certain well-prepared tales which could be also real ones (though on earth). If this is the case of parents and their little kids, one can imagine how it should be of those who have to rule millions of people :)

Kerim
An independent student of Jesus Christ
 
Beetow
Active

Beetow

#682
KerimF said:
An independent student of Jesus Christ
Click to expand...
Jesus' followers are not allowed to be independent; they are supposed to be
trained rather than self-guided.

● Eph 4:11 . . And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some,
evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers

Christians who refuse to avail themselves of Jesus' God-given instructors
risk stunting their growth.

● Eph 4:12-13 . .To prepare God's people for works of service, so that the
body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the
knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole
measure of the fullness of Christ.

They also risk falling prey to humanistic thinking.

● Eph 4:14 . . Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the
waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the
cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming.
_
 
K
Member

KerimF

#683
Beetow said:
Jesus' followers are not allowed to be independent; they are supposed to be
trained rather than self-guided.

● Eph 4:11 . . And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some,
evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers

Christians who refuse to avail themselves of Jesus' God-given instructors
risk stunting their growth.

● Eph 4:12-13 . .To prepare God's people for works of service, so that the
body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the
knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole
measure of the fullness of Christ.

They also risk falling prey to humanistic thinking.

● Eph 4:14 . . Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the
waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the
cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming.
_
Click to expand...

You are totally right.
They were given a really hard mission to accomplish since they were the first messengers of Jesus' message when the world has no idea of.
And they did it till their last breath, despite all the sufferings they had to live while doing it.

Now, almost anyone on earth can read what Jesus brought to the world (actually to those who can oppose their natural robotic nature) as knowledge about God's Realm of Love, besides many crucial natural truths about the real world (as designed).
So, what do you expect me, being an ordinary man that no one is ready to hear, to do, other than thanking Jesus for saving me from my ignorance which I was born with.

I am saved, not a savior. I knew (in spirit) Jesus and my Father in Heaven from the Gospel directly, so no one needs me since he can also have a Gospel as I had.

You may ask: So why you talk about Jesus and... in this forum? My answer is:
Lately, due to many crises which affected badly the region where I live, my small private business is somehow paralyzed. I had the idea to pass my free time, till my work will be revived, in a forum where Jesus is welcomed.

You may ask again: You said you are profession as a designer in electronics. Why you didn't join a technical forum instead? My answer is:
Due to world's regulations, all serious technical forums cannot open their door for me anymore, otherwise, they will break the rules.
 
KingJ
Active

KingJ

#684
Bethel said:
Jesus.

Is the.

ONE TIME (Thats the Cross)

Eternal (That means forever)

Sacrifice ( That is the Blood Atonement)

For SINS.... (Notice that is PLURAL......that means ALL.... = Eternal.
Click to expand...
B-A-C said:
.. all existing sins, not all sins you continue to do in the future.

Heb 10:26; For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

Jude 1:4; For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.
Click to expand...

You are both correct.

@Bethel is making the point that Christians are covered eternally for all their sin. OSAS. Correct.

@B-A-C is making the point that those who continue in sin unrepentant are not covered. These would not be Christians. Christians do not continue in sin unrepentant. They may make mistakes of sin, but they will certainly not be mortal sins or continue in them unrepentant. As explained here What is a Christian and how do you become one?.

Those that continue in sins unrepentant will find themselves in hell, paying for their sins in a fire of sort. No covering from Jesus.
 
Bethel
Active

Bethel

#685
KingJ said:
You are both correct.

@Bethel is making the point that Christians are covered eternally for all their sin. OSAS. Correct.

@B-A-C is making the point that those who continue in sin unrepentant are not covered. These would not be Christians. Christians do not continue in sin unrepentant. They may make mistakes of sin, but they will certainly not be mortal sins or continue in them unrepentant. As explained here What is a Christian and how do you become one?.

Those that continue in sins unrepentant will find themselves in hell, paying for their sins in a fire of sort. No covering from Jesus.
Click to expand...

B-A-C, is trying to prove that a Christian can lose their Salvation.

Let me show you , ,Reader, how to understand something..

A.) Where there is no LAW, there is no SIN".. "no Transgression".

Notice the verse didnt say there would not be any carnality.

So, notice this verse....>>The born again are "not under the LAW, but under GRACE".

See that? There is no LAW that can define a CHRISTian as a SINNER, because the born again are not under the Law.

This means that the born again exist in "GRACE"......... and Grace is not The Law, ...........= Grace is that place where there is "no Transgression" that is based on the LAW evaluating the deed.

This is why Paul told the born again....."Use not this LIBERTY">..........= use not this understanding ........to commit works of the Flesh".

Paraphrase....

Now that you know that There is no Law on you that can define your carnality as SIN......do not now go and live like a sinner because you know you are "under Grace".
 
B-A-C
Loyal

B-A-C

#686
Bethel said:
A.) Where there is no LAW, there is no SIN".. "no Transgression".
Click to expand...

Is this right? Let's take this passage in context ( I assume this is the one, since you didn't post scripture locations ).

Rom 6:13; and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.
Rom 6:14; For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
Rom 6:15; What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!
Rom 6:16; Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
Rom 6:17; But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed,
Rom 6:18; and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.

Verses 14 and 15 say, you are not under law, but under grace. But then the very next verse ( 16 ) says, you are a slave to who you obey, either righteousness or sin.
Why would it say that if you were unable to sin?

Gal 5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.
Gal 5:19 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,
Gal 5:20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,
Gal 5:21 envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

For the sake of this discussion, it has nothing to do with OSAS. maybe you were saved once, maybe you weren't, I don't care about that for this discussion.
The point is, if you're living in sin... you not led by the Spirit, and if that's the case. You're still under the law!

Matt 7:23; "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'
Jesus says He never knew those who practice lawlessness. Why didn't He know them? They thought He did.
1Jn 2:4; The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;
You can say you know Jesus and are led by the Spirit all day long, but the proof is in the pudding.
We aren't under ceremonial law, that's true. No circumcision required, no human priests, no sacrifices, no stoning people, but you still have to keep the moral law.
1Cor 7:19; Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.
Matt 19:17; And He said to him, "Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments."
The Bible warns about people who use grace as an excuse to continue sinning.
Jude 1:4; For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.
But by doing that, they are denying Jesus, whether they know it or not.

Heb 12:15; See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God; that no root of bitterness springing up causes trouble, and by it many be defiled;

The Bible says it's possible to fall short of the grace of God.
 
Curtis
Loyal

Curtis

#687
Isa 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.


Isa 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.


Isa 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
 
Bethel
Active

Bethel

#688
B-A-C said:
Is this right? Let's take this passage in context ( I assume this is the one, since you didn't post scripture locations ).
Click to expand...

Cut and pasting a lot of verses proves nothing., except you have very good cut and past skill.

So, just go here.

The born again are "not under the Law, but under Grace".

So, if you can comprehend ".. NOT"... "UNDER".. ."THE"... "LAW" then you have started from today, to understand something about Salvation.
 
KingJ
Active

KingJ

#689
Bethel said:
Cut and pasting a lot of verses proves nothing., except you have very good cut and past skill.

So, just go here.

The born again are "not under the Law, but under Grace".

So, if you can comprehend ".. NOT"... "UNDER".. ."THE"... "LAW" then you have started from today, to understand something about Salvation.
Click to expand...

There are a number of Christians here that do not believe in once saved always saved. But a few do. The difference is at the core really not a material matter. The underlying truth for both parties is the fact that we all need to examine ourselves for sin to ensure we are in fact saved Christians. As Jesus says we are known by our works.

If Paul continued for example in the mortal sin of murdering Christians, nobody would believe he was saved. But if he repentant daily for venial sins as he alludes to in Rom 7:15, different matter.

--------------------

High level, your statements are 100% correct. Anti-OSAS believers like B-A-C dig into the nitty gritty. This is fine, but when doing this you must also consider the ''higher level''. Which is OSAS / the fact that if God grafts you into His family, you are grafted in and washed by the blood of Jesus. Eternally forgiven of all your sins and go from glory to glory Heb 10:14.
 
Bethel
Active

Bethel

#690
KingJ said:
There are a number of Christians here that do not believe in once saved always saved. But a few do. The difference is at the core really not a material matter. The underlying truth for both parties is the fact that we all need to examine ourselves for sin
Click to expand...

If Jesus has died for your sin, like this..

"God hath made JESUS......to be sin... for Us""""" . .. as....... "The one time ETERNAL Sacrifice for SIN.....

So, if that happened to the believer, then there is no "examining for sin" necessary, as if the person has sin, then Jesus doesn't have it, and that person is not born again yet.

And before anyone runs in here with 1 John 1:9, that is not for the "little Children"....then go instead to 1 John 3:9, that is for the born again, and read that one for the first time.
 
E
Member

Eddie Deepfield

#691
KingJ said:
Hi all

I am very interested in your interpretation of scripture on hell / eternal lake of fire.

I think a poll will show this. Feel free to explain why you believe as you do.

I mention pets as they speak to a more humane living condition. Many unrepentant sinners love pets and treat them well. It would be extra torturous if pets were not in hell.

There will be no judging or debating here, each entitled to their own belief on an unknown future event.

I will ask mods to remove any post mocking a belief.

__________________________

I select ''Eternal torment - limited suffering, not such a bad place''.

For this reason:

Scripture says God is good Psalm 136:1, the definition of 'love' 1 John 4:7, righteous in all His ways Psalm 145:17, light with no darkness in Him at all 1 John 1:5, Impartial Acts 10:34, a just judge who does not pervert justice Job 34:12, rewards each according to their deeds Rom 2:6.

Scripture also teaches us that many righteous are barely saved 1 Pet 4:18, meaning there are many unrighteous barely not saved. I am not implying God is a fool that would send someone to hell if they would one-day desire true repentance of sin. I just feel it is important for us to grasp that there are levels of sinners. Just as there will be levels and rewards among the saints.

I believe Hell will be a place a good person would create. I say this because in Gen 3:22 we read God explaining that humans now know what is good and evil. Exactly as He and the angels know. Very important fact to consider. God has not got a code of ethics separate to us / something we cannot make sense of. When David says God is good in Psalm 136:1, I believe he meant it. When Jesus says 'only' God is truly good in Mark 10:18, I believe He meant it.

As such, I believe hell will be a place a good person approves of and one better then the Geneva convention (what the 'good' unsaved people of the world approve of). The Geneva convention started when the WW2 allies needed to separate and punish those Germans that were guilty of the greatest crimes against humanity. So, I would propose a good person will agree with the Geneva convention stipulations for those in hell, a Christian should do better and God...well since He is on the absolute side of perfection and love as only He is truly good Mark 10:18, even better. Many will propose that if God does something evil, we can't call Him out on it as He is ''God'', but this is not true. Abraham calls God out on the destruction of Sodom in Gen 18. God explains Himself to Abraham and he approves. We see this with Moses and the Hebrews worshipping the golden calf too in Exo 32.

God mentions four things about hell that I feel deserve explaining for much needed context. Before I start with them, I want you to consider how God mentioned only a few things to Adam and Eve on what awaited them after their sin. Gen 3 mentions, 1. Pain in childbirth, 2. Husband will rule over wife, 3. Cursed ground, 4. Dust to dust / no eternal life on earth. But what God did not mention was: 1. Nice fruit, 2. Beautiful beaches, 3. Having the ability to create tools to plough the field, 4. Create medicines and painkillers to help with childbirth, etc etc. Earth would and could be a very nice place if ''only'' the people on it were not evil. So why does God not mention all the good things about Earth and the life that awaits them in Gen 3? I am going to propose that He did not need to as Adam and Eve 'knew' it was a 'given' as they 'knew' God is good. We need to consider the same when using only a few verses as the A-Z explanation of eternal hell.

The four most impactful scriptural statements on hell to consider 1. Weeping and gnashing of teeth, 2. Darkness, 3. Eternal torment, 4. Fire.

1. Luke 13:28 says people in hell weep and gnash their teeth because they look up and see the saints and Jesus. They weep because they are cast out of heaven. This is a suffering linked to separation, not fire. I believe this is a very important fact to grasp.

2. In John 3:19 we see that Jesus says people love the darkness because their deeds are evil. Proposing that hell is not a place where the lights are permanently off. Darkness is a metaphor for a place where evil takes place. This makes sense as those in hell will be unrepentant sinners.

3. Eternal Torment. It makes sense to me that a good God gives true free will. ''Accept me, come be with me. Reject me, go be somewhere else''. God keeps the evil alive for all eternity as not doing so would be evil. 'No free will' is evil. Just ask any unlucky lady forced into an arranged marriage. As you are surrounded by unrepentant sinners and have fire, it will be a place of torment when compared to heaven.

4. Fire in hell I believe is badly mistaught.

We know from the story of the rich man speaking to Abraham, that he was able to have a conversation and asked for a drop of water on his tongue Luke 16. If you are on fire, will you ask for a drop of water or have a rational conversation with someone?

Scripture teaches us that there ''has'' to be a punishment for sin. God has set this in place as an absolute rule. Christians have the blood of Jesus covering them from all their sins, current and future. Those in hell, don't. As such, I firmly believe that fire is God's chosen method of punishment. Example: On year fifty in hell, you decide to stab your neighbor in the leg. A fire of sort for X amount of time will be on you. As evil continues forever among those that are in hell, so too does 'fire'.
Click to expand...

Eternal torment - torturous, excruciating pain and suffering, no pets is the Biblical answer. Give me a chance and i will explain why by using the points 1 to 5 in your foundation post.​


If you accept that there is a hell you have to accept the assumption of retributive punishment, in that people should get what they deserve. People who die in their un-forgiven and un-repentent heart/state will be automatically sent to hell. They have made their choice.

C.S. Lewis the famous Christian philosopher states in his book "The problem of pain" that “the doors of hell are locked on the inside."

Which means even though the damned in hell are in anguish they still choose to remain in it, rather than to prefer to be in a God-centered presence/existence in heaven. Resistance to God continues in hell.

Therefore those in hell deserve to be there.

And require punishment.

Not correction.

The question is what is that punishment?

to be continued.
 
KingJ
Active

KingJ

#692
Bethel said:
If Jesus has died for your sin, like this..

"God hath made JESUS......to be sin... for Us""""" . .. as....... "The one time ETERNAL Sacrifice for SIN.....

So, if that happened to the believer, then there is no "examining for sin" necessary, as if the person has sin, then Jesus doesn't have it, and that person is not born again yet.

And before anyone runs in here with 1 John 1:9, that is not for the "little Children"....then go instead to 1 John 3:9, that is for the born again, and read that one for the first time.
Click to expand...

You are correct, but not grasping one issue. Namely:

It is possible to think you are saved when in fact you are not.
 
MedicBravo
Active

MedicBravo

#693
There are those who "did some things" and said some words" regarding accepting God but you wouldn't know it if you met them.
Then there are those who are still struggling with some sins and for me that is Anger. I'm better with it than I used to be but not where I NEED to be.
I'm sure anyone can agree that emotions can rise so fast you noticing the strength of it is in after thought. They can switch from one to another or even more than one at a time.
 
MedicBravo
Active

MedicBravo

#695
IMO, what people will experience in Hell is far worse and the mortal, human mind cannot comprehend it.
1. Knowing God is real 100% without a doubt and knowing that one will NEVER be with Him or any of the saved.
2. Inability to feel remose or move on for one's choices and regret. Imagine being stuck in the worst possible emotional pain from what one did; never able to forget or learn from it.
 
S
Loyal

Sue D.

#696
Looking at Revelation 20 : 10 the lake of fire and brimstone was made for the false prophet , the beast and satan. It is meant to be a horrible place of eternal existence. And total darkness .
 
S
Loyal

Sue D.

#697
a person can have a lot of knowledge of Scripture and of salvation but it isn't in their heart. I grew up in a good Bible teaching church. But it wasn't until I was 16 or so that I didn't know if I was saved or not so I prayed to God and made sure thar I Was saved and immediately I knew an inner peace that hadn't been there until then.
Romans10: 9-.10
 
S
Loyal

Sue D.

#698
Satan wants us to think that hell won't really be all that bad. That there won't be anyone to spoil their fun. God's Word says differently.
 
KingJ
Active

KingJ

#699
Sue D. said:
Satan wants us to think that hell won't really be all that bad.
Click to expand...

That's because he knows God.

The angels very likely knew what the consequences would be when they chose to defy God. They also know what is waiting for them. We know this from the scripture mentioning those that spoke to Jesus and were cast into swine Matt 8:28-34.

''Why have you come to torment us before our time?'' They know torment is coming. But, please try and '''''note''''' the fact that they did not incriminate Jesus and or God. They did not state ''oh terrifying Son of God, how cruel you are going to be, please show some mercy'''. Jesus honored their request to be cast into swine. Imagine that. Not something you would expect from God who is going to '''torture them for all eternity''' now is it?

People like you and the 21 who voted on the worse possible case scenario for hell I feel really need to learn more about God.

When you misrepresent Him, you need to be terrified of the day that you will meet Him!!!!

Sue D. said:
That there won't be anyone to spoil their fun. God's Word says differently.
Click to expand...

Where?
 
KingJ
Active

KingJ

#700
MedicBravo said:
IMO, what people will experience in Hell is far worse and the mortal, human mind cannot comprehend it.
Click to expand...

How do you come to that opinion? What scripture alludes to it?

God is a good God. Be very careful of misrepresenting Him.

MedicBravo said:
1. Knowing God is real 100% without a doubt and knowing that one will NEVER be with Him or any of the saved.
Click to expand...

How do you know this? Scripture does not mention this. We reign with Jesus, I would expect us to be able to visit hell. I would think that be obvious.

MedicBravo said:
2. Inability to feel remose or move on for one's choices and regret. Imagine being stuck in the worst possible emotional pain from what one did; never able to forget or learn from it.
Click to expand...

That would be torturous of God. Why would He leave them in their worst possible emotional state?

Be very careful of misrepresenting Him. In fact, you need to be terrified of God. Imagine standing before Him and being guilty of teaching the lost that He sit a top a list of the most evil beings to exist. That is exactly what you are implying when you make statements like this. Please try understand that.
 
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