OSAS

Hekuran said:

Charlie24 said:

Oh, but yes he did! Calvin taught that God chooses who will be saved (predestination) and man has no choice in the matter.

The conclusion is that you can't lose that salvation because He chose you, you didn't choose Him. You had no choice.

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He didn't teach that sin is of no consequence though. Classic Calvinism believes that the same irresistible grace that draws a person to salvation also equips them for a life in step with the spirit.

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We must also understand that there are differing versions of Calvinism -- Calvin's version and later versions that use modified selections of TULIP.

Calvin did not create TULIP, that came later, after his death, in arguments against Jacobus Arminius. And in the world of Calvinism there are 5 point Calvinists and 3 point Calvinists and modified 3 point Calvinists, and sneaky 5 pointers who are really 4 pointers....

So some Calvinists believe that God predestined some to be saved, but they have a free will from which they can reject.

Charlie24 said:

Why does Paul use the word "IF?" We are made partakers "IF."

That is a condition to be met in order to reap the benefits.

It means what it says. Some will not accept it, nothing I can do about that.

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So you are saying several things here that must be fact:
1) God is not omniscient, since he saved someone who is not savable; or do you think salvation comes from somewhere other than God?
2) John 10:28-30 is false, since you just proved that someone (you!) can snatch you from the hand of God. The bible has a contradiction.
3) The seal of the Holy Spirit is useless (Eph 4:30). It doesn't hold. It doesn't bind (which is what the Greek word for "seal" there means). Another biblical contradiction.
4) And that you were not actually God's (1 Cor 6:19), but you still were your own, since it was you that was able to not continue where God leads.

We should take a Sharpie marker and wipe those verses out of the bible since they have been proven to be false.

So, in light of the whole of scripture, what do we do with Hebrews 3:14-15?

Who were the disobedient who were hardened by sin? Verse 16 tells us that it was the ones who began the journey out of Egypt in that state. They did not have the "initial confidence" (v14) that the saved individual has. That term in v14, "initial confidence", in Greek literally means: “the beginning of the confidence.” The ones who did not make it into the Promised Land sinned and did not believe from the beginning.

This picture of Israel coming out of Egypt, crossing the desert, and entering into the Promised Land is the entire picture of the unsaved hearing the Word and crossing over into salvation.

Look at verse 10:

Hebrews 3:10-11
10 “Therefore, I became provoked at that generation and said, ‘Their hearts are always wandering and they have not known my ways.’
11 “As I swore in my anger, ‘They will never enter my rest!’”

So did they enter God's rest, and then leave, and then reenter? And then leave? No!!

Their hearts are always wandering. They never became saved. They never accepted the message. And this is how they could tell who was saved and not saved: are they holding to the initial confidence?

See verse 18
And to whom did he swear they would never enter into his rest, except those who were disobedient? 19 So we see that they could not enter because of unbelief.

Who can't get saved? The disobedient from the beginning. Their unbelief holds them out.

ABlessedMan said:

So you are saying several things here that must be fact:
1) God is not omniscient, since he saved someone who is not savable; or do you think salvation comes from somewhere other than God?
2) John 10:28-30 is false, since you just proved that someone (you!) can snatch you from the hand of God. The bible has a contradiction.
3) The seal of the Holy Spirit is useless (Eph 4:30). It doesn't hold. It doesn't bind (which is what the Greek word for "seal" there means). Another biblical contradiction.
4) And that you were not actually God's (1 Cor 6:19), but you still were your own, since it was you that was able to not continue where God leads.

We should take a Sharpie marker and wipe those verses out of the bible since they have been proven to be false.

So, in light of the whole of scripture, what do we do with Hebrews 3:14-15?

Who were the disobedient who were hardened by sin? Verse 16 tells us that it was the ones who began the journey out of Egypt in that state. They did not have the "initial confidence" (v14) that the saved individual has. That term in v14, "initial confidence", in Greek literally means: “the beginning of the confidence.” The ones who did not make it into the Promised Land sinned and did not believe from the beginning.

This picture of Israel coming out of Egypt, crossing the desert, and entering into the Promised Land is the entire picture of the unsaved hearing the Word and crossing over into salvation.

Look at verse 10:

Hebrews 3:10-11
10 “Therefore, I became provoked at that generation and said, ‘Their hearts are always wandering and they have not known my ways.’
11 “As I swore in my anger, ‘They will never enter my rest!’”

So did they enter God's rest, and then leave, and then reenter? And then leave? No!!

Their hearts are always wandering. They never became saved. They never accepted the message. And this is how they could tell who was saved and not saved: are they holding to the initial confidence?

See verse 18
And to whom did he swear they would never enter into his rest, except those who were disobedient? 19 So we see that they could not enter because of unbelief.

Who can't get saved? The disobedient from the beginning. Their unbelief holds them out.

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Oh boy, I just love it when folks put words in my mouth.

If your faith in not in tact and in operation when you meet Christ, you're going to hear this,

"depart from me, I never knew you." That's going to be the case for many.

If you want to believe you can be truly saved, and have no chance of Satan taking that faith from you through the things of the world, or the struggles of this life, then have it. You don't need my permission to believe it.

Satan is roaring lion seeking whom he may devour, and he devours by taking what you are not guarding.

Charlie24 said:

Oh boy, I just love it when folks put words in my mouth.

If your faith in not in tact and in operation when you meet Christ, you're going to hear this,

"depart from me, I never knew you." That's going to be the case for many.

If you want to believe you can be truly saved, and have no chance of Satan taking that faith from you through the things of the world, or the struggles of this life, then have it. You don't need my permission to believe it.

Satan is roaring lion seeking whom he may devour, and he devours by taking what you are not guarding.

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Oh, and I forgot again, doing a lot of that lately.

No man can pluck you out of the Fathers hand, but you better believe you can pluck yourself out of His hand if you're not guarding with all He has given you!

Dave M said:

last try, let say you go before a legal judge for killing someone, and you are guilty but plead the case you are truly sorry that judge will judge you on your guilt and you will be punished he gives you NO grace even thought you are sorry, peace in Christ thank you Lord GOd for not being just and not giving me what I deserve

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Dave, you are creating a red herring and being evasive.

Your response to my example in post # 45 was firstly an unrelated quote from scripture, then a statement that God is unjust. Now you are using unrelated support for Him being unjust.

Using the statement 'God is unjust' to explain my example in post # 45 suggests that God is unjust in that He punishes Christian A who serves Him for longer and does not punish Christian B. That is 100% unjust and not something God would never do. It would also imply He is a fool. Lucky Dave is not the one to get the short end of the stick?

_______________________

As to the point you are making in this post. I will create a new thread and discuss it. A discussion on God's justice will hijack this one.

ABlessedMan said:

Were the fallen angels "saved"?

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Being 'saved' is part and parcel of God's plan with mankind. God planned for mankind to be sons and daughters in His house. A blood covenant / being saved is needed for that. This was not the plan for angels.

ABlessedMan said:

Scripture doesn't speak to this, but if they did not disobey and "stayed in their lane" worshipping God -- would they remain in heaven for eternity?

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I don't believe it is that simple. We will judge angels in heaven 1 Cor 6:3, on what if not for their sin and disobedience?

I believe that those cast out were, like humans who are sent to hell, completely sold out to a love of what is evil. Sin full measure.

ABlessedMan said:

Yes, I do agree that Heb 6 does not stand in the way of understanding OSAS; it certainly is not a testimony to a fall from grace.

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Yes. I mean, if you know what it takes to become a Christian / what a Christian is, you would never say a child in your house is someone who has only tasted your love.

Dave M said:

Yes absolutley do you think God is a just God???

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Please better explain your point here - Is God just in not punishing Christians for their sins?

Greetings,

Language can be pesky.

The Lord does not deal with us according to our deserved punishment but justice has been satisfied in and through His Son.
How we receive (or not) is something we will all be accountable for.... and what we did with the grace abounding where sin had once.

May I ask a slightly different question which might help in this discussion?


Bless you all ....><>

Br. Bear said:

Language can be pesky.

The Lord does not deal with us according to our deserved punishment but justice has been satisfied in and through His Son.
How we receive (or not) is something we will all be accountable for.... and what we did with the grace abounding where sin had once.

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This isn't as easy as that.
First there are the unbelievers/un-saved. They get what they deserve.

Then there are the repentant believers. They don't get what they deserve.

But it's this last group that gets tricky.
Are all sins forgiven for believers?

1Jn 1:8; If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9; If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10; If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

Why do we need to ask for forgiveness again, if we are already forgiven?

Matt 12:31; "Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven.
Matt 12:32; "Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

It says here this is an unforgiveable sin, not only in this age, but in the age to come.
You can blaspheme and reject Jesus and that will be forgiven. But you can't blaspheme the Holy Spirit.

Mark 11:25; "Whenever you stand praying, forgive, if you have anything against anyone, so that your Father who is in heaven will also forgive you your transgressions.
Mark 11:26; "But if you do not forgive, neither will your Father who is in heaven forgive your transgressions."

It says here if we don't forgive others, God won't forgive us either.

Heb 10:26; For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27; but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.

It says here, that if you go on practicing sin "willfully", the sacrifice no longer covers your sins.

There are dozens more verses like these.

Rev 3:4; 'But you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their garments; and they will walk with Me in white, for they are worthy.
Rev 3:5; 'He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

If their garments were already washed in the blood, how did they get soiled again?

2Pet 2:22; It has happened to them according to the true proverb, "A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT," and, "A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire."

Just because you're washed by Jesus, doesn't mean you can't get dirty again.

Heb 6:4; For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
Heb 6:5; and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
Heb 6:6; and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

KingJ said:

Please better explain your point here - Is God just in not punishing Christians for their sins?

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DO you not think you deserve hell me to, and only by the grace of God we are forgiven, any other way to think is works base salvation and will blind a person thinkingg they are good enough on there own to get to heaven.

Only by GOds grace do we not get what we deserve.

I will answer your post here Is God just in not punishing Christians for their sins?.

Charlie24 said:

Oh boy, I just love it when folks put words in my mouth.

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No, didn't put them into your mouth. I used your words to infer facts that must be true -- or your words would not hold up. That's what discussion is all about. Iron sharpens iron, and all that.

Charlie24 said:

If your faith in not in tact and in operation when you meet Christ, you're going to hear this,

"depart from me, I never knew you." That's going to be the case for many.

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This is true.

Charlie24 said:

If you want to believe you can be truly saved, and have no chance of Satan taking that faith from you through the things of the world, or the struggles of this life, then have it. You don't need my permission to believe it.

Satan is roaring lion seeking whom he may devour, and he devours by taking what you are not guarding.

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These statements have some truth, but they are the but they are the centroid of an opinion. They have scripture to uphold some (you can be truly saved) and they violate scripture in other ways (Satan taking that faith from you -- juxtaposed to -- no one will snatch you from God's hand)

Scripture does not hold up all your opinion here.

Charlie24 said:

Oh, and I forgot again, doing a lot of that lately.

No man can pluck you out of the Fathers hand, but you better believe you can pluck yourself out of His hand if you're not guarding with all He has given you!

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No. You are a "no man." You cannot violate the Father's will. And once you are given salvation, you are NOT YOUR OWN. You are his and you will not get taken from his hand. He will protect you. If you "desire" to get out of his hand, that is not a good thing, it's not a good place to want to go. And God will protect his child and keep you safe once you are saved, once you are his, once you are part of the family, once you have been grafted into the tree, once you have his grace....it goes on and on as to why God is not going to let you go: he will protect your salvation.

KingJ said:

Being 'saved' is part and parcel of God's plan with mankind. God planned for mankind to be sons and daughters in His house. A blood covenant / being saved is needed for that. This was not the plan for angels.

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This is true. Good answer.

KingJ said:

I don't believe it is that simple. We will judge angels in heaven 1 Cor 6:3, on what if not for their sin and disobedience?

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I believe that is clear that it will be on their sin -- and the angels involved here are the disobedient angels that were cast out.

KingJ said:

I believe that those cast out were, like humans who are sent to hell, completely sold out to a love of what is evil. Sin full measure.

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Agreed in concept.

An aside: Scripture infers that hell was created for angels who were locked away. Historical translation has taken words like Sheol and Gehenna and made them into "hell." Most every time a man is said to die damned, it is the Lake of Fire that is the destination. It is a parallel concept as to why we see in Rev 22:15 "dogs and the sorcerers and the sexually immoral, and the murderers, and the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood" -- when the Great White Throne Judgement and the casting into the Lake of Fire occurred way back in chapter 19 (yes, I fall into a dispy camp and believe Revelation is a chronological depiction of the end times -- nothing amillennial with me. )

KingJ said:

Yes. I mean, if you know what it takes to become a Christian / what a Christian is, you would never say a child in your house is someone who has only tasted your love.

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Agreed. And once the child is in your house, you will protect them with a Father's love. They won't be hurt by anyone, including themselves. Love will keep him whole.

B-A-C said:

First there are the unbelievers/un-saved. They get what they deserve.

Then there are the repentant believers. They don't get what they deserve.

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This second line is the thesis statement to your position on this subject. And your handling of it is wrong.

I'm a believer. I believe, through what I'm told in scripture, that I will be taken to Heaven and live forever with God.

Do I deserve this? In and of my own actions, no. Of course not.

God is perfect in his justice. I have sinned and there is a punishment for sin. But God's rules in scripture are clear: something or someone can pay for that sin. In the OT this would have been a lamb, or a bull, or a turtledove, etc. Blood was shed and the sins were transferred to the animal that was sacrificed. Read Leviticus 16. An animal was killed and the blood was transferred from the goat to the scapegoat. The scapegoat what then sent into the wilderness, carrying the sins of the camp with it.

But the blood of animals was temporary. So the Day of Atonement had to be repeated each year. Over and over again.

Until Jesus, the perfect and sinless lamb came to earth to be that sacrifice once and for all.

You see, justice was not dismissed when we became Christians. Your sins were transferred, through blood, to the sacrificial Lamb. Your sins were sent to the wilderness when Jesus died and descended into hell. Your sins were paid for. Justice was completely and satisfactorily accomplished.

Your sin was imputed to Jesus. His righteousness was then imputed to you. Justice was served.

And now, because you -- unlike many others who will not know heaven -- accepted the gift that Christ gives, and are righteous through imputation, you deserve to go to heaven.

Also, when you say you don't get what you deserve, you trample underfoot the very grace that Christ gives to you.

Charlie24 said:

Oh, and I forgot again, doing a lot of that lately.

No man can pluck you out of the Fathers hand, but you better believe you can pluck yourself out of His hand if you're not guarding with all He has given you!

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Imagine being the unlucky Christian God decides to use to witness to prostitutes. I bet many ant-OSAS Christians pray daily ''God please use me in a very safe environment, far, far from temptation. In fact God, please let me be in a car crash soon so that I can go to heaven soon and reduce the risk of me being tempted by sin and going to hell''.

Perhaps Christians should all lock themselves up in a monastery and sing hymns until Jesus comes.

KingJ said:

Imagine being the unlucky Christian God decides to use to witness to prostitutes. I bet many ant-OSAS Christians pray daily ''God please use me in a very safe environment, far, far from temptation. In fact God, please let me be in a car crash soon so that I can go to heaven soon and reduce the risk of me being tempted by sin and going to hell''.

Perhaps Christians should all lock themselves up in a monastery and sing hymns until Jesus comes.

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Or they could do as Paul said and guard their faith.

1 Cor. 16:13

"Be on your guard; stand firm in the faith; be courageous; be strong."

Charlie24 said:

Or they could do as Paul said and guard their faith.

1 Cor. 16:13

"Be on your guard; stand firm in the faith; be courageous; be strong."

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I"m reading all around 1 Cor 16:13 -- in fact read the whole chapter again. I don't see anything about losing salvation here (or protecting yourself against it).

Here's what I do see:

1 Cor 16:13-14
13 Stay alert, stand firm in the faith, show courage, be strong. 14 Everything you do should be done in love.

Now why, if "stay alert" (or "be on your guard") is about sinning and losing salvation (it isn't, but let's stay for a moment it is), then why would we need to know that (v14) "Everything you do should be done in love." Do we slide into sin and lose salvation in love?

Or perhaps is "stay alert" an admonition to be aware of your fellow believers so that you may help them, edify them, correct them. Do not be timid in teaching and correcting.

The chapter is about Paul coming to visit so that he can collect an offering for Jewish Christians. This chapter is speaking about being diligent to help believers who are less fortunate than you (in this case, the Corinthian Church).

Charlie24 said:

Or they could do as Paul said and guard their faith.

1 Cor. 16:13

"Be on your guard; stand firm in the faith; be courageous; be strong."

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Not sure how you don't understand you are on cloud nine. Please take a stab at the example I give in post # 47.

KingJ said:

A lot of teaching from Paul can be used to support an anti-OSAS view. But when anyone does this or argues that Paul is not saying what he is, it shows me that they do not understand the OSAS argument.

The OSAS argument is a discussion on God. Only He can search the depths of hearts and minds Jer 17:9-11. We are mostly fools that think we are saved when we are not. God is not a fool that grafts a demon into heaven or casts a saint out.

When you understand what it takes to become a Christian, you will understand that God would never cast a saint out What is a Christian and how do you become one?.

Now, what an anti-OSAS supporter needs to understand is the fact that they are incriminating God. Making God out to be evil and unjust. We know from Job in Job 34:12 that it is unthinkable that God would do what is evil or pervert justice. The following example is what anti-OSAS supporters need to explain:

- Christian A serves God by witnessing to prostitutes for 40 years, in year 41 he falls into mortal sin and .....God sends him to an ''ETERNAL'' lake of fire.

- Christian B does not really serve God, but repents and talks to Jesus on the cross for 4 hours.....God sends him off to eternal bliss.

How is this not a perversion of justice by God?

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The OSAS discussion is NOT a discussion about God, it's about people. People with the freedom to choose whether they choose to stay saved or not.
You have a lot of opinions about God being a fool or not. Giving someone a chance doesn't make you a fool. God gives everyone a chance.
Otherwise people can stand before the judgment throne and say, God you never gave me a chance. Maybe some will make it, maybe some will fail.
Either way, it's not God's fault if they fail.

You give an example of "fairness" which seems to be important to you, but life isn't fair.
You say some one could be saved for 40 or 50 years, then fall away ( the Bible gives several examples of this very thing ) and then at the end of their life they fall away. You ask how can that be fair?
By the same token, someone could be a sinner all their life, a homosexual, pedophile, murderer, satanist for 50 or 60 years. Then the last few years of their life they get saved. How is that fair?
How is that not a perversion of justice?

Most scholars I know believe the thief on the cross was under the old covenant, he didn't go to heaven, he went to paradise. Jesus did not ascend back to heaven until after He was resurrected.
But one thing is for sure, the thief on the cross didn't continue practicing sin for the last 4 hours of his life. He didn't have any affairs, kill anyone or steal anything.

Instead of trying to figure out the logic of all this, you just need to accept the truth.
This isn't a logic thing. It's a truth thing.