OSAS

Charlie24 said:

It' s true Augustine originated predestination, Calvin took it to its conclusion step by step. He finished what Augustine started.

What do you think of this verse?

Hebrews 3:14

"For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;"

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I think that verse goes with the verse that follows it, and we need both to fully understand.

Hebrews 3:14-15
14 For we have become partners with Christ, if in fact we hold our initial confidence firm until the end. 15 As it says, “Oh, that today you would listen as he speaks! Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.”

Verse 15 speaks of those who hear, but do not receive. They rebel and harden their hearts against the truth. In verse 14, the believer, who did not rebel in such a way, has the "initial confidence" (or, in Greek, 'the beginning of confidence'). Verse 15 in the Greek actually begins with 'while it is said' and some translations do not place a period at the end of 14 (in Koine Greek there were no verse numbers or punctuation). And what is bolded in v15 above is actually quoted from Ps 95:7-8.

So in Verse 14 we see that the believer is held to the confidence that he was first given....until the end. He won't lose it. Why?

1 Corinthians 6:19-20
19 Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? 20 For you were bought at a price. Therefore glorify God with your body.

You are not your own. You belong to God now. You were bought with a price.

John 10:28-30
28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish; no one will snatch them from my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one can snatch them from my Father’s hand. 30 The Father and I are one.”

So do you think that you are special, that you can snatch yourself away from God. Nobody else can. The Father and Jesus have you and nobody, not even youself, can take them from God's hand.

Do you think that God will call you, then when you accept the call, justify you, regenerate you and send the Holy Spirit to indwell in you and begin the process of sanctification, if he knows (and he is omniscient, is he not?) that you will one day renounce your faith, become unsaved?

How does he keep you? Well, besides being in his hand, his, not your own, there is the Holy Spirit:

Ephesians 4:30
And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

You are sealed with the Holy Spirit, from the time you are saved until Jesus returns to redeem you. Do you think you can break God's seal? Do you think God is incapable of keeping his Word in this?

So point me to a verse that specifically speaks of how one unregenerates. Or how God unjustifies you, taking away the imputation of righteousness that Jesus robed you with.

No, salvation is not ours to give to ourselves (we can't save ourselves); nor is it something that we can take away from ourselves (we can't unsave ourselves). God, and God alone, deals in salvation.

Charlie24 said:

It' s true Augustine originated predestination, Calvin took it to its conclusion step by step. He finished what Augustine started.

What do you think of this verse?

Hebrews 3:14

"For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;"

Click to expand...

On the subject of Augustine: yes Augustine's teachings were a bit different from that of Calvin. Note: the parts of what we know of as TULIP today from the Calvinists, were teachings of Calvin, but also other Reformed preachers of the day. Calvin didn't create the concepts that make up TULIP, and in fact the acrostic was created after Calvin's death in the context of the Synod of Dort, by other Calvinists (who became known as Calvinists simply because they took on and uplifted the majority teachings from Calvin -- not that he alone came up with them. Most of it was in response to Jacobus Arminius.

As far as predetermination:
Augustine taught the God predestines some to salvation (the elect). He did not teach that God predestines any to hell (double predestination). Augustine taught that man has a free will to accept of reject salvation, and those who are not predestinated may still be called and accept; he didn't teach (though to my knowledge did not specifically reject the idea) that those predestined to be saved could reject.
Calvin taught double predestination: God chose who will be saved and who will be damned. Some, even in his day, considered the teaching of divine reprobation (some chosen for hell) to be blashphemous.

The original point in my first post was that Calvin did not create this concept. That's all I was mentioning.

ABlessedMan said:

All in all, on the subject of OSAS, I only know of one verse that strongly could be used against it. Hebrews 6:4-6. But in context it really isn't as strong as one might think.

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Heb 6:4-6 does not come close to debunking OSAS if properly understood. A Christian is not one who merely ''''tastes / has been enlightened / shares in / experiences'''. The fallen angels were enlightened, tasted and shared in the experiences of God's presence too. Everyone that goes to an anointed meeting at church can experience the Holy Spirit. Does mean they are saved. Just close to being inoculated against the truth. As those who would trample Jesus underfoot Heb 10:29.

Charlie24 said:

What do you think of this verse?

Hebrews 3:14

"For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;"

Click to expand...

It is extremely important to understand Paul's preaching style.

Paul preached to everyone in attendance at a meeting as though they are saved. He would never separate true Christian from fake Christian, his teaching would do that.

I have not got the time now to go into detail, but I will just say that we need to consider how he said in 1 Cor 6:9-12 that sinners will not be in heaven and as he identified in 1 Cor 5:1 that mortal sinners / sinner guilty of incest is a brethren 'so called' in 1 Cor 5:11. He is making the point to all in attendance / all that would read his writings, the fact that they must not think they are saved if they continue unrepentant in sin or commit mortal sins. Likewise, in Heb 3:14 is making the point to all in attendance, that we must not think we are saved if we cannot stand unto the end.

KingJ said:

It is extremely important to understand Paul's preaching style.

Paul preached to everyone in attendance at a meeting as though they are saved. He would never separate true Christian from fake Christian, his teaching would do that.

I have not got the time now to go into detail, but I will just say that we need to consider how he said in 1 Cor 6:9-12 that sinners will not be in heaven and as he identified in 1 Cor 5:1 that mortal sinners / sinner guilty of incest is a brethren 'so called' in 1 Cor 5:11. He is making the point to all in attendance / all that would read his writings, the fact that they must not think they are saved if they continue unrepentant in sin or commit mortal sins. Likewise, in Heb 3:14 is making the point to all in attendance, that we must not think we are saved if we cannot stand unto the end.

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I'm happy to see you agree that Paul wrote Hebrews. That would be a good thread in itself, identifying Paul as the author!

Paul said, "if we hold the beginning of our confidence unto the end"

That is our faith in Jesus Christ, in His finished work on the Cross and His resurrection.

We must hold that faith unto the end, to our death, or we will not be partakers of Christ.

This verse totally and completely refutes OSAS.

Contrary to popular belief, one can stop believing through the circumstances of life.

But you take this verse as you see fit, it speaks for itself.

ABlessedMan said:

So from my post you've concluded that I don't understand that Jesus is timeless? Or do you have a private interpretation about what timelessness is?

Jesus indeed ascended to the Father. The Father, Son and Spirit are One: God. God is timeless. Philippians 2:7 tells us that Jesus took on the form of a man, becoming a man (who lives in time). This did not make him any less part of the Godhead, according to scripture: "I and My Father are one" John 10:30.

Jesus name, nor title, is "Who." What church teaches you this? God is one God. He is present in three persons: the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit; all one God. When the Son was on the earth, he bacame man and did not give up being God. But as a man on earth, he spoke of the Father, not as being someone or something apart from himself, but simply as the Father in heaven and he is the Son, being on earth. But he said clearly that he and the Father were one.

There is nothing odd about the teaching of the Trinity in the Christian Church. There are oddities when we look to the cults. Timelessness is certainly an attribute of God.

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I have no idea what you are talking about, why you think I believe Jesus name is "Who", and why you do not understand why I mentioned timelessness in relation to your thoughts?

So if you want me to reply you need to explain so that I at least get an idea about what you mean

Charlie24 said:

I'm happy to see you agree that Paul wrote Hebrews. That would be a good thread in itself, identifying Paul as the author!

Paul said, "if we hold the beginning of our confidence unto the end"

That is our faith in Jesus Christ, in His finished work on the Cross and His resurrection.

We must hold that faith unto the end, to our death, or we will not be partakers of Christ.

This verse totally and completely refutes OSAS.

Contrary to popular belief, one can stop believing through the circumstances of life.

But you take this verse as you see fit, it speaks for itself.

Click to expand...

A lot of teaching from Paul can be used to support an anti-OSAS view. But when anyone does this or argues that Paul is not saying what he is, it shows me that they do not understand the OSAS argument.

The OSAS argument is a discussion on God. Only He can search the depths of hearts and minds Jer 17:9-11. We are mostly fools that think we are saved when we are not. God is not a fool that grafts a demon into heaven or casts a saint out.

When you understand what it takes to become a Christian, you will understand that God would never cast a saint out What is a Christian and how do you become one?.

Now, what an anti-OSAS supporter needs to understand is the fact that they are incriminating God. Making God out to be evil and unjust. We know from Job in Job 34:12 that it is unthinkable that God would do what is evil or pervert justice. The following example is what anti-OSAS supporters need to explain:

- Christian A serves God by witnessing to prostitutes for 40 years, in year 41 he falls into mortal sin and .....God sends him to an ''ETERNAL'' lake of fire.

- Christian B does not really serve God, but repents and talks to Jesus on the cross for 4 hours.....God sends him off to eternal bliss.

How is this not a perversion of justice by God?

KingJ said:

- Christian A serves God by witnessing to prostitutes for 40 years, in year 41 he falls into mortal sin and .....God sends him to an ''ETERNAL'' lake of fire.

- Christian B does not really serve God, but repents and talks to Jesus on the cross for 4 hours.....God sends him off to eternal bliss.

How is this not a perversion of justice by God?

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seems like that is the way man thinks, but the answere I believe would be found in the parables

Before I give a example if a man falls back into practicing sin after 40 year I would wonder if he knew Jesus at all, I am just not sure that would happen to a true believer as we grow in CHrist we become stronger not weaker

And another point is if we stumble in sin we do have a advocate that we can go to for forgiveness and repentance, so just because you sinned again does not mean you would go to hell

Look at the thief on the cross as example of someone who most likely spent his whole life in sin, repented at the last minute and went to paradise with Jesus

Now for the parrable

he Parable of the Workers

1“For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire workers for his vineyard. 2He agreed to pay them a denariusa for the day and sent them into his vineyard.

3About the third hourb he went out and saw others standing in the marketplace doing nothing. 4‘You also go into my vineyard,’ he said, ‘and I will pay you whatever is right.’ 5So they went.

He went out again about the sixth hour and the ninth hourc and did the same thing.

6About the eleventh hourd he went out and found still others standing around. ‘Why have you been standing here all day long doing nothing?’ he asked.

7‘Because no one has hired us,’ they answered.

So he told them, ‘You also go into my vineyard.’e

8When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, ‘Call the workers and pay them their wages, starting with the last ones hired and moving on to the first.’

9The workers who were hired about the eleventh hour came and each received a denarius. 10So when the original workers came, they assumed they would receive more. But each of them also received a denarius.

11On receiving their pay, they began to grumble against the landowner. 12‘These men who were hired last worked only one hour,’ they said, ‘and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden and the scorching heat of the day.’

13But he answered one of them, ‘Friend, I am not being unfair to you. Did you not agree with me on one denarius? 14Take your pay and go. I want to give this last man the same as I gave you. 15Do I not have the right to do as I please with what is mine? Or are you envious because I am generous?’

16So the last will be first, and the first will be last.”f

Dave M said:

seems like that is the way man thinks, but the answere I believe would be found in the parables

Before I give a example if a man falls back into practicing sin after 40 year I would wonder if he knew Jesus at all, I am just not sure that would happen to a true believer as we grow in CHrist we become stronger not weaker

And another point is if we stumble in sin we do have a advocate that we can go to for forgiveness and repentance, so just because you sinned again does not mean you would go to hell

Look at the thief on the cross as example of someone who most likely spent his whole life in sin, repented at the last minute and went to paradise with Jesus

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Agreed, you are making a brilliant argument for OSAS.

Dave M said:

Now for the parrable

he Parable of the Workers

1“For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire workers for his vineyard. 2He agreed to pay them a denariusa for the day and sent them into his vineyard.

3About the third hourb he went out and saw others standing in the marketplace doing nothing. 4‘You also go into my vineyard,’ he said, ‘and I will pay you whatever is right.’ 5So they went.

He went out again about the sixth hour and the ninth hourc and did the same thing.

6About the eleventh hourd he went out and found still others standing around. ‘Why have you been standing here all day long doing nothing?’ he asked.

7‘Because no one has hired us,’ they answered.

So he told them, ‘You also go into my vineyard.’e

8When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, ‘Call the workers and pay them their wages, starting with the last ones hired and moving on to the first.’

9The workers who were hired about the eleventh hour came and each received a denarius. 10So when the original workers came, they assumed they would receive more. But each of them also received a denarius.

11On receiving their pay, they began to grumble against the landowner. 12‘These men who were hired last worked only one hour,’ they said, ‘and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden and the scorching heat of the day.’

13But he answered one of them, ‘Friend, I am not being unfair to you. Did you not agree with me on one denarius? 14Take your pay and go. I want to give this last man the same as I gave you. 15Do I not have the right to do as I please with what is mine? Or are you envious because I am generous?’

16So the last will be first, and the first will be last.”f

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You are dodging the point I raised and discussing a separate topic.

Your example speaks to all getting paid, all being workers. If we applied this to Christianity, which is a stretch as Christians are 'children / family of God', it would speak to all getting to heaven.

I just don't understand the relevance of this scripture to the point I raised.

You say we will still have the choice to sin in heaven, because if we didn't have that choice, it would make us robotic slaves with no free will.
But then you say once saved always saved, because we have no free will in the matter to choose to get unsaved.

KingJ said:

A lot of teaching from Paul can be used to support an anti-OSAS view. But when anyone does this or argues that Paul is not saying what he is, it shows me that they do not understand the OSAS argument.

The OSAS argument is a discussion on God. Only He can search the depths of hearts and minds Jer 17:9-11. We are mostly fools that think we are saved when we are not. God is not a fool that grafts a demon into heaven or casts a saint out.

When you understand what it takes to become a Christian, you will understand that God would never cast a saint out What is a Christian and how do you become one?.

Now, what an anti-OSAS supporter needs to understand is the fact that they are incriminating God. Making God out to be evil and unjust. We know from Job in Job 34:12 that it is unthinkable that God would do what is evil or pervert justice. The following example is what anti-OSAS supporters need to explain:

- Christian A serves God by witnessing to prostitutes for 40 years, in year 41 he falls into mortal sin and .....God sends him to an ''ETERNAL'' lake of fire.

- Christian B does not really serve God, but repents and talks to Jesus on the cross for 4 hours.....God sends him off to eternal bliss.

How is this not a perversion of justice by God?

Click to expand...

What got you saved is faith in Jesus Christ. Now it's a fact that some, through the trials of this life lose that faith. They for some reason no longer believe in the saving power of Christ.

OSAS is saying that no matter what you do, if you were born again you cannot lose that salvation. That is a lie straight from the theory of John Calvin, his view of predestination.

If you don't hold on to the faith in Christ that got you saved, then you simply are not going to make it into the Kingdom of God.

There is nothing for anyone to be alarmed about, just hold on to your faith in Him and all is well.

We must examine ourselves periodically to be sure we are in the faith, as Paul has told us.

Charlie24 said:

What got you saved is faith in Jesus Christ. Now it's a fact that some, through the trials of this life lose that faith. They for some reason no longer believe in the saving power of Christ.

OSAS is saying that no matter what you do, if you were born again you cannot lose that salvation. That is a lie straight from the theory of John Calvin, his view of predestination.

If you don't hold on to the faith in Christ that got you saved, then you simply are not going to make it into the Kingdom of God.

There is nothing for anyone to be alarmed about, just hold on to your faith in Him and all is well.

We must examine ourselves periodically to be sure we are in the faith, as Paul has told us.

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Calvin didn't teach that that it doesn't matter what a saved person does. The typical Calvinist understanding is that a person who continues in sin was never saved in the first place.

And yes, we should continue to hold on to our faith and examine ourselves with great seriousness.

Hekuran said:

Calvin didn't teach that that it doesn't matter what a saved person does. The typical Calvinist understanding is that a person who continues in sin was never saved in the first place.

And yes, we should continue to hold on to our faith and examine ourselves with great seriousness.

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Oh, but yes he did! Calvin taught that God chooses who will be saved (predestination) and man has no choice in the matter.

The conclusion is that you can't lose that salvation because He chose you, you didn't choose Him. You had no choice.

Charlie24 said:

Oh, but yes he did! Calvin taught that God chooses who will be saved (predestination) and man has no choice in the matter.

The conclusion is that you can't lose that salvation because He chose you, you didn't choose Him. You had no choice.

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He didn't teach that sin is of no consequence though. Classic Calvinism believes that the same irresistible grace that draws a person to salvation also equips them for a life in step with the spirit.

B-A-C said:

You say we will still have the choice to sin in heaven, because if we didn't have that choice, it would make us robotic slaves with no free will.

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Correct

B-A-C said:

But then you say once saved always saved, because we have no free will in the matter to choose to get unsaved.

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OSAS is not by default ''no free will / God preselects''. No free will is evil as I explain here Free will.

We arrive at OSAS from:

1. Grasping what it takes to become a Christian What is a Christian and how do you become one?
2. Grasping that God is not a fool that would cast into hell someone who would / has laid their lives down for Him.

Hekuran said:

He didn't teach that sin is of no consequence though. Classic Calvinism believes that the same irresistible grace that draws a person to salvation also equips them for a life in step with the spirit.

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Of course he didn't teach sin is of no consequence. I've read much of Calvin's commentary, I just don't agree on his view of predestination.

The bottom line to Calvin's teaching on predestination is that man cannot lose his salvation, he was predestined to be saved no matter what.

But the individuals salvation is not what God predestined for man. The redemption plan of God is what was predestined for man, with man having the choice to accept or reject that plan.

When I get time I'm going to start a thread in detail of this very thing!

Charlie24 said:

What got you saved is faith in Jesus Christ.

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As I have said to you four times now, False.

There are men and woman of great faith mentioned in Matt 7:22 that are 100% en route to hell with their great faith.

We are saved because we accept Jesus. Accepting Jesus is part and parcel of repentance of sin. As Jesus came to call sinners to repentance Luke 5:32. Faith in Jesus being Lord / IE Christian faith is a gift from the Holy Spirit 1 Cor 12:3. We are chosen for this saving faith as we open the door to Jesus Rev 3:20, we open the door to Jesus by accepting Jesus / repenting of our sins and not because we can from our own self effort muster up faith to believe the unseen is seen, like a faith in Santa Claus.

Charlie24 said:

Now it's a fact that some, through the trials of this life lose that faith. They for some reason no longer believe in the saving power of Christ.

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Sure, if you compare Christian faith to children that believe in fairies and Santa Claus.

A true Christian does not lose faith! Their faith is as solid as a belief in gravity. It is a given that God exists and that Jesus died for us.

Charlie24 said:

OSAS is saying that no matter what you do, if you were born again you cannot lose that salvation.

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Correct. I feel you are just not understanding / do not yet grasp what it takes to become a Christian. Stuck on this 'faith' thing. Like 'our self mustered faith' has value to God. Please read this What is a Christian and how do you become one?.

Charlie24 said:

That is a lie straight from the theory of John Calvin, his view of predestination.

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It is one thing he got right. But, however, when you mix it with predestination / choosing from birth who is His and who is not, yes, it is evil.

The truth is that God does not preselect and that OSAS is true.

Charlie24 said:

If you don't hold on to the faith in Christ that got you saved, then you simply are not going to make it into the Kingdom of God.

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Completely disagree. Imagine telling your children that if they don't believe in Santa Claus they will not ever get presents and oneday you will kick them out your house.

Charlie24 said:

There is nothing for anyone to be alarmed about, just hold on to your faith in Him and all is well.

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We must hold onto our faith in Him? Please qualify that statement.

What faith must we hold onto exactly?

A. Faith that there is a God?
B. Faith that a man who walked the earth 2000 years ago is God of the universe?
C. Faith that some random person called Jesus died for my sins?

Charlie24 said:

We must examine ourselves periodically to be sure we are in the faith, as Paul has told us.

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Yes, he said this many times. That is because we are humans that can think we are saved when we are not.

_______________________

You have not dealt with my post Charlie. You have spoken at a tangent. I said that OSAS is a 'God discussion'. You have ignored that. I gave an example of how your belief incriminates God, you have ignored that.

KingJ said:

As I have said to you four times now, 1000000000% False.

There are men and woman of great faith mentioned in Matt 7:22 that are 100% en route to hell with their great faith.

We are saved because we accept Jesus. Accepting Jesus is part and parcel of repentance of sin. As Jesus came to call sinners to repentance Luke 5:32. Faith in Jesus being Lord / IE Christian faith is a gift from the Holy Spirit 1 Cor 12:3. We are chosen for this saving faith as we open the door to Jesus Rev 3:20, we open the door to Jesus by accepting Jesus / repenting of our sins.



Sure, if you compare Christian faith to children that believe in fairies and Santa Claus.

A true Christian does not lose faith! Their faith is as solid as a belief in gravity. It is a given that God exists and that Jesus died for us.



Correct. You are just not understanding / do not yet grasp what it takes to become a Christian. You seem stuck on this 'faith' thing. Like 'our self mustered faith' has value to God. Please read this What is a Christian and how do you become one?.



It is one thing he got right. But, however, when you mix it with predestination / choosing from birth who is His and who is not, yes, it is evil.

The truth is that God does not preselect and that OSAS is true.



What utter nonsense. Go tell your children that if they don't believe in Santa Claus they will not ever get presents and oneday you will kick them out your house.

Your understanding of what it takes to be a Christian needs to be revisited.



We must hold onto our faith in Him? Please qualify that statement.

What faith must we hold onto exactly?

A. Faith that there is a God?
B. Faith that a man who walked the earth 2000 years ago is God of the universe?
C. Faith that some random person called Jesus died for my sins?



Yes, he said this many times. That is because we are humans that can think we are saved when we are not.

_______________________

You have not dealt with my post. You have spoken at a tangent. I said that OSAS is a 'God discussion'. You have ignored that. I gave an example how your belief incriminates God, you have ignored that.

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KingJ said:

As I have said to you four times now, False.

There are men and woman of great faith mentioned in Matt 7:22 that are 100% en route to hell with their great faith.

We are saved because we accept Jesus. Accepting Jesus is part and parcel of repentance of sin. As Jesus came to call sinners to repentance Luke 5:32. Faith in Jesus being Lord / IE Christian faith is a gift from the Holy Spirit 1 Cor 12:3. We are chosen for this saving faith as we open the door to Jesus Rev 3:20, we open the door to Jesus by accepting Jesus / repenting of our sins.



Sure, if you compare Christian faith to children that believe in fairies and Santa Claus.

A true Christian does not lose faith! Their faith is as solid as a belief in gravity. It is a given that God exists and that Jesus died for us.



Correct. I feel you are just not understanding / do not yet grasp what it takes to become a Christian. Stuck on this 'faith' thing. Like 'our self mustered faith' has value to God. Please read this What is a Christian and how do you become one?.



It is one thing he got right. But, however, when you mix it with predestination / choosing from birth who is His and who is not, yes, it is evil.

The truth is that God does not preselect and that OSAS is true.



Completely disagree. Imagine telling your children that if they don't believe in Santa Claus they will not ever get presents and oneday you will kick them out your house.



We must hold onto our faith in Him? Please qualify that statement.

What faith must we hold onto exactly?

A. Faith that there is a God?
B. Faith that a man who walked the earth 2000 years ago is God of the universe?
C. Faith that some random person called Jesus died for my sins?



Yes, he said this many times. That is because we are humans that can think we are saved when we are not.

_______________________

You have not dealt with my post Charlie. You have spoken at a tangent. I said that OSAS is a 'God discussion'. You have ignored that. I gave an example of how your belief incriminates God, you have ignored that.

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How many times have we clashed, Kingj? Every single time we have conversation it's an all out argument.

Believe what you will, that's fine with me, I'm no longer arguing with you!

Charlie24 said:

How many times have we clashed, Kingj? Every single time we have conversation it's an all out argument.

Believe what you will, that's fine with me, I'm no longer arguing with you!

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Charlie, you seem to think our self mustered faith is of value to God.

You also do not properly address points raised. Your entire reply danced around the points I raised.

Even now, the new post to you, new points raised, you type a reply like this that looks like a cop out.

___________________

Do you not understand that I have stated that your belief incriminates God? I have proven it and given a very simple example.

If this was posed to me, I would take it seriously. Imagine holding onto a belief that clearly incriminates God. That moment in your life when you need to realize a belief is wrong and needs to be dropped like a bag of rotten potatoes.

OR, debunk me. Explain how the example I gave in post #45 is not evidence of a perversion of justice.

Something that I find very interesting on this topic is how someone justifies their belief.

It is possible for an anti-OSAS believer to validly be upset with an OSAS believer if an OSAS believer arrives at their belief in a heretical manner.

If you arrive at an OSAS belief by believing in absolute grace or Calvinism, your belief is evil. If you are one who continues in venial sin unrepentant, you are not saved. If you are one who commits mortal sins, you are not saved.

Anyone who believes OSAS is a license to continue in sin, is likely not saved and needs to heed all Paul's warnings. Example in 1 Cor 10:12If you think you are standing firm you had better be careful that you do not fall.

OSAS is a discussion on God. Not on mankind. Mankind cannot judge hearts and minds as God can Jer 17:9-11. That is why Paul has a million warnings to us.

God is not a fool that grafts a demon into heaven. We are fools that can think we are saved.