Dave M said:

1 Peter 4:10-11
As each has received a gift, use it to serve one another, as good stewards of God's varied grace: whoever speaks, as one who speaks oracles of God; whoever serves, as one who serves by the strength that God supplies—in order that in everything God may be glorified through Jesus Christ. To him belong glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.

How can one serve one another if we isolate ourselfs?

Scripture is clear we all have gifts to serve one another,

if your not serving other people is there any scripture to support such a lifestyle?

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Dear brother,

When these types of conversation arise, it is amazing how the views are stretched to the extremes.

Just because a person does not go to, what is called a church, that is the kuriakon church which is not in scripture, does not mean a person is isolating themselves, God always provides fellowship over ways. Just because we cannot see that on here, it doesn't mean those who are not part of a fellowship of believers, are not having fellowship in other ways, it does not mean they are not worshipping God, it does not mean they are not helping others.

The question should be, why are these people not part of a fellowship (called a church) what is stopping them, it will not be the devil, it is more likely they have had bad experiences in the past, or they do not believe the places of worship are truly following the Word of God.

Now many will say for sure, 'My church is not like that', one, they do not have a church, two every place of worship, every denomination think they are right with God.

To be clear here brother, I am talking of saved souls not lost souls, and dedicated saved souls, committed saved souls, who cannot accept, the practices of some places of worship, the creed, the church, the denomination, the people.

From experience Dave, those truly born again believers, who do not attend a place of worship, do not do so for these reasons, or back biting in these groups, or quite simply they have dedicated themselves to serious Bible Study and are more mature in faith than many (not all) preachers.

Many places of worship should look closer to home for the reasons many do not attend their congregation. But they don't and over the years have become more like social groups that the body of Christ, the ekklesia. Preaching is liberalised, when did you last hear a truly heart felt sermon on the Wrath of God, we don't do that now a days, we preach God is Love! Which love I would ask? Everything has become softly softly today, no urgency, how many churches think all their congregation are saved? Many I can assure you. The preaching of being born again, washed and spiritually regenerated has been diluted, don't upset the group, numbers are dropping everywhere.

Preaching of the need to be born again has to be the number one sermon, preached without compromise, preached according to The Word of God. Closely followed by true preaching of the Wrath of God. But many say that is not right Dave, they say the Wrath of God was in the Old Testament, it is different in the New Testament, Really! God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit, God's Wrath was administered to the Jews as punishment at the time, in the New Testament the Wrath of God is at the end of time, though he does administer it during the end times (last 2000 years), there were examples in the early church as we know. But the truth is God is God, and there is as much about the Wrath of God in the New Testament as there was in the Old.

Shalom

Dave M said:

What father does not want his children to know there brothers and sisters??

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Although your statement is correct on the surface Dave, and well meant, it is floured from the start.

Firstly, and I say this in love, how many people in the place of worship you are part of actually know each other as you state?

I am not talking about the nod, one to another, or the occasional brief chat over tea or coffee, how many do you know as well as you know your own brother or sister?

What you quote is the Father's will, but in the flesh, saved or lost souls, it doesn't happen. As saved souls we do love one another, Christ is in us, but we do not know and love each other like a family member.

That was why Jesus had so much to say about 'Love'. The greatest commandment, the greatest command, Love one another as I have loved you.

I find it very interesting that scripture quotes many different types of love, unlike the western world.

Shalom

Brother-Paul said:

The question should be, why are these people not part of a fellowship (called a church) what is stopping them, it will not be the devil, it is more likely they have had bad experiences in the past, or they do not believe the places of worship are truly following the Word of God.

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Have you ever ate at a bad restaurant or cafe? Did that stop you from eating at all cafes and restaurants? Why should one or two bad churches keep you from going to any. I believe yes, it IS the devil telling you to stay away.
What do lions and wolves do to sheep? They separate the weakest from the herd and then take them down.

Brother-Paul said:

From experience Dave, those truly born again believers, who do not attend a place of worship, do not do so for these reasons, or back biting in these groups, or quite simply they have dedicated themselves to serious Bible Study and are more mature in faith than many (not all) preachers.

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...and yet Jesus was a friend to these people.
Matt 11:19; The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Look, a glutton and a winebibber, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!' But wisdom is justified by her children."

If you are attending or not attending a church because of the pastor, then you are going to church for the wrong reason. Yes doctrine matters, ( 99% of all posts here on TalkJesus are related to doctrine in some way or another )
But is the pastor mature enough, or funny enough, or deep enough? Now you are judging the pastor. OK, there are people that need help in the church, maybe even the pastor... what are you doing to help them?

Yes, there are some bad churches. But not all of them.

Brother-Paul said:

I am talking of saved souls not lost souls, and dedicated saved souls, committed saved souls, who cannot accept, the practices of some places of worship, the creed, the church, the denomination, the people.

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Not accepting the practices of some churches.. I can agree with. Not accepting the people, I cannot agree with. Jesus loves gluttons, wine drinkers, tax-collectors, prostitutes, and even homosexuals... shouldn't we do the same?

Jesus didn't come to save those who are already saved.

Mark 2:17; When Jesus heard it, He said to them, "Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance."

The plain and simple fact is... you don't know who is saved and who isn't. People may look and act saved, but that doesn't mean anything. God looks at the heart.
Jesus is reaching out to the lost and unsaved, shouldn't we be doing the same?

Luke 18:10; "Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.
Luke 18:11; The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, 'God, I thank You that I am not like other men—extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector.
Luke 18:12; I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.'
Luke 18:13; And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me a sinner!'
Luke 18:14; I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."

Beware the leaven of the Pharisees. Some of us have become "too good" to have anything to do with those who aren't like us. They don't look like us, they don't act like us, therefore they aren't worthy of our time.

Gal 2:11; Now when Peter had come to Antioch, I withstood him to his face, because he was to be blamed;
Gal 2:12; for before certain men came from James, he would eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing those who were of the circumcision.
Gal 2:13; And the rest of the Jews also played the hypocrite with him, so that even Barnabas was carried away with their hypocrisy.
Gal 2:14; But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, "If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews?

Brother-Paul said:

Preaching of the need to be born again has to be the number one sermon, preached without compromise, preached according to The Word of God. Closely followed by true preaching of the Wrath of God. But many say that is not right Dave, they say the Wrath of God was in the Old Testament, it is different in the New Testament, Really! God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit, God's Wrath was administered to the Jews as punishment at the time, in the New Testament the Wrath of God is at the end of time, though he does administer it during the end times (last 2000 years), there were examples in the early church as we know. But the truth is God is God, and there is as much about the Wrath of God in the New Testament as there was in the Old.

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This should be the primary sermon that the pastor preaches every week in the main service. Yes, I agree. But then people say I'm already saved, I don't need this sermon, the pastor isn't deep enough for me. He only preaches milk and not meat.
That's why you have other ministries. Men's Bible studies, women's prayer groups, Sunday school classes, home fellowship groups, ... there are plenty of other ways to go deeper with other believers.

But being part of a congregation isn't all about you. It isn't simply so you can be fed. It's so we ourselves can go out a share the gospel ourselves. What good is it to be full of the Spirit and the Word, if we don't share it with anyone?
Both the saved and the unsaved.

Brother-Paul said:

From experience Dave, those truly born again believers, who do not attend a place of worship, do not do so for these reasons, or back biting in these groups, or quite simply they have dedicated themselves to serious Bible Study and are more mature in faith than many (not all) preachers.

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The church isn't simply about what you get from it. It's also about what you give back to it. Again, what good is "serious Bible study" and being "more mature in faith" if you are keeping it all to yourself?

Brother-Paul said:

every denomination think they are right with God.

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..as do you.

PloughBoy said:

Let me say this, when you have been born into the Body of Christ, it is not a body revealed in parts. You have become a member of a Whole HOST of Believers, Brothers and sisters the promise was given to "Abraham" and Abraham has fellowship with us, and if you do not know that, and you do not recognize the presence of Isaac, Jacob, john Calvin, John Hus, Edwards, Luther, David, Paul, James, Peter, Elijah, Nahum, Daniel a whole HOST, living in you. something is wrong!

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Jesus and the Holy Spirit live in me. Not any Earthly pastor or prophet. This is an un-biblical teaching.

PloughBoy said:

Tell me someone; HOW can a "Child of The LIVING GOD" have more in common with the child of a Devil than with HIs Own kind. Tell me How can a Child of The LIVING GOD walk hand in hand and enjoy

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Matt 9:10; Now it happened, as Jesus sat at the table in the house, that behold, many tax collectors and sinners came and sat down with Him and His disciples.
Matt 9:11; And when the Pharisees saw it, they said to His disciples, "Why does your Teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?"
Matt 11:19; The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Look, a glutton and a winebibber, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!' But wisdom is justified by her children."

Jesus hung around these people, and He loved them. It almost sounds like they are beneath you. Perhaps being "too good" to love other people is what makes us a devil.

1Jn 3:10; In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.

B-A-C said:

Why should one or two bad churches keep you from going to any.

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Back to square one brother, What is a church?

B-A-C said:

If you are attending or not attending a church because of the pastor, then you are going to church for the wrong reason

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What is a church?

B-A-C said:

But is the pastor mature enough, or funny enough, or deep enough?

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Is the pastor funny enough, that is a strange one. Maybe not in this day and age.

B-A-C said:

Yes, there are some bad churches. But not all of them.

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What is a church Ray?

B-A-C said:

Not accepting the people, I cannot agree with. Jesus loves gluttons, wine drinkers, tax-collectors, prostitutes, and even homosexuals... shouldn't we do the same?

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In the comment regarding people, I am not referring to myself, but it is something I have seen, groups and clicks within a congregation, that is my seat! Really!

B-A-C said:

The plain and simple fact is... you don't know who is saved and who isn't.

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That is true, that is not the issue, the issue starts with how you preach, I am not directing this at you or anyone specific Ray.

Take the following example.

Preacher one treats all the congregation as born again, preaches to all as saved. They are the sheep in his flock.

Preacher two directs his sermon to the congregation that all must be born again, if they are not they will not see and not enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

Which one is correct Ray.

The first pastor thinks the church is saved, considering all as his flock. Treating them all as saints.

The second takes no chances, he knows some in his congregation are not saved. So is message is to all, You, each one of you, must be born again or you are not saved.

The second can comfortably move to the next stage and confirm to all, if you are not born again you are not yet part of the body of Christ, you are a member of this congregation, but you must be on again from above to be part of our Lord's church, the ekklesia. The first pastor is frightened to start telling the congregation The Truth here, because he has not been bold enough to speak The Truth.

A pastor of an evangelical place of worship, stood up to Talk about the church, his first words to the congregation were, good morning saints, I have not said that for a while,but that is what we are. Really! Not all are born again, not all are part of the church, they may be members of that place of worship, but they are not all members of the church, the ekklesia, the Body of Christ.

To tell the congregation they are the church, without explaining which are not, to call them all saints when they are not, is misguiding some of them who are not saved into believing they are saved and to allow the flock to share the untruths with others.

Brother-Paul said:

Back to square one brother, What is a church?

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B-A-C said:

For the purpose of this discussion, when I say "church", I don't mean the building.
I mean the body of Christ, the assembly, the gathering together of the saints.

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Brother-Paul said:

What is a church Ray?

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Using your two examples above... about the two different preachers. I like that.

There should be "saved" - "believers" - "Christians" whatever term you like in a "church". And maybe you believe those are the ONLY people that are actually part of the church. Maybe you are even right about this.
But even so. The fact remains... most "assemblies/congregations" have non-believers and un-saved people there. In fact, where do most un-saved people go to get saved? A building/temple/tabernacle/synagogue/house-of-God whatever you want to call it.
So saved and un-saved people have to intermingle.

1Cor 5:9; I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people.
1Cor 5:10; Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world.

We can get nit-picky on the semantics, and argue about what the "church" means if you like, but again... I am talking about the assembly/the congregation, both saved and un-saved.

But even if you don't consider the unsaved part of "the church" proper, you do have to consider them part of the assembly and congregation. And we have to love them just as much as we love anyone else.

B-A-C said:

This should be the primary sermon that the pastor preaches every week in the main service. Yes, I agree. But then people say I'm already saved, I don't need this sermon, the pastor isn't deep enough for me. He only preaches milk and not meat.
That's why you have other ministries. Men's Bible studies, women's prayer groups, Sunday school classes, home fellowship groups, ... there are plenty of other ways to go deeper with other believers.

But being part of a congregation isn't all about you. It isn't simply so you can be fed. It's so we ourselves can go out a share the gospel ourselves. What good is it to be full of the Spirit and the Word, if we don't share it with anyone?
Both the saved and the unsaved.



The church isn't simply about what you get from it. It's also about what you give back to it. Again, what good is "serious Bible study" and being "more mature in faith" if you are keeping it all to yourself?

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Dear brother, you are thinking on the same lines as Dave, that if someone does not go to (a place of prayer and worship) they are totally isolated.

That is not the case, did Jesus go every week to the Temple? No he didn't. Did he go to prayer and worship each week, 'behind four walls' no he didn't.

Jesus went around the countryside, sharing the good news whenever he could, his disciples watched and did the same. They had fellowship in each others houses.

Then Jesus gave the great Commission... did he say, go to a building you will call a church, it is not the ekklesia but you will call it a church based on another word, kuriakon. No he didn't, he said...

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Brother-Paul said:

That is not the case, did Jesus go every week to the Temple? No he didn't. Did he go to prayer and worship each week, 'behind four walls' no he didn't.

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Yes. He did. Not just every week, but every day.

Matt 26:55; In that hour Jesus said to the multitudes, "Have you come out, as against a robber, with swords and clubs to take Me? I sat daily with you, teaching in the temple, and you did not seize Me.
Mark 14:49; I was daily with you in the temple teaching, and you did not seize Me. But the Scriptures must be fulfilled."
Luke 19:47; And He was teaching daily in the temple. But the chief priests, the scribes, and the leaders of the people sought to destroy Him,
Luke 22:53; When I was with you daily in the temple, you did not try to seize Me. But this is your hour, and the power of darkness."


Luke 2:46; Now so it was that after three days they found Him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the teachers, both listening to them and asking them questions.
Matt 21:15; But when the chief priests and scribes saw the wonderful things that He did, and the children crying out in the temple and saying, "Hosanna to the Son of David!" they were indignant
Matt 21:23; Now when He came into the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people confronted Him as He was teaching, and said, "By what authority are You doing these things? And who gave You this authority?"
Matt 24:1; Then Jesus went out and departed from the temple, and His disciples came up to show Him the buildings of the temple.
Mark 11:15; So they came to Jerusalem. Then Jesus went into the temple and began to drive out those who bought and sold in the temple, and overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those who sold doves.
John 8:2 ; Now early in the morning He came again into the temple, and all the people came to Him; and He sat down and taught them.
John 18:20; Jesus answered him, "I spoke openly to the world. I always taught in synagogues and in the temple, where the Jews always meet, and in secret I have said nothing.

Matt 13:54; When He had come to His own country, He taught them in their synagogue, so that they were astonished and said, "Where did this Man get this wisdom and these mighty works?
Mark 1:21; Then they went into Capernaum, and immediately on the Sabbath He entered the synagogue and taught.
Mark 3:1; And He entered the synagogue again, and a man was there who had a withered hand.
Mark 6:2; And when the Sabbath had come, He began to teach in the synagogue. And many hearing Him were astonished, saying, "Where did this Man get these things? And what wisdom is this which is given to Him, that such mighty works are performed by His hands!
Luke 4:38; Now He arose from the synagogue and entered Simon's house. But Simon's wife's mother was sick with a high fever, and they made request of Him concerning her.
Luke 6:6; Now it happened on another Sabbath, also, that He entered the synagogue and taught. And a man was there whose right hand was withered.
John 6:59; These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum.


But even if He wouldn't have... He picked 12 disciples that followed Him everywhere. The crowds followed Him. Martha, Mary and Lazarus followed Him.
Yes Jesus went off and prayed alone sometimes. But most of the time He surrounded Himself with people. I'm not saying we can't ever be alone. But it shouldn't be our primary focus to avoid people.

I don't know if this story is true or not. It is copied from the internet.
The word "church" doesn't appear anywhere in this story, but to me... it's about church.

=======================================

I arrived at the address and honked the horn. After waiting a few minutes I honked again. Since this was going to be my last ride of my shift I thought about just driving away, but instead I put the car in park and walked up to the door and knocked.. 'Just a minute', answered a frail, elderly voice. I could hear something being dragged across the floor.

After a long pause, the door opened. A small woman in her 90's stood before me. She was wearing a print dress and a pillbox hat with a veil pinned on it, like somebody out of a 1940's movie.

By her side was a small nylon suitcase. The apartment looked as if no one had lived in it for years. All the furniture was covered with sheets.

There were no clocks on the walls, no knickknacks or utensils on the counters. In the corner was a cardboard
box filled with photos and glassware.

'Would you carry my bag out to the car?' she said. I took the suitcase to the cab, then returned to assist the woman.

She took my arm and we walked slowly toward the curb.

She kept thanking me for my kindness. 'It's nothing', I told her.. 'I just try to treat my passengers the way I would want my mother to be treated.'

'Oh, you're such a good boy, she said. When we got in the cab, she gave me an address and then asked, 'Could you drive
through downtown?'

'It's not the shortest way,' I answered quickly..

'Oh, I don't mind,' she said. 'I'm in no hurry. I'm on my way to a hospice.

I looked in the rear-view mirror. Her eyes were glistening. 'I don't have any family left,' she continued in a soft voice..'The doctor says I don't have very long.' I quietly reached over and shut off the meter.

'What route would you like me to take?' I asked.

For the next two hours, we drove through the city. She showed me the building where she had once worked as an elevator operator.

We drove through the neighborhood where she and her husband had lived when they were newlyweds She had me pull up in front of a furniture warehouse that had once been a ballroom where she had gone dancing as a girl.

Sometimes she'd ask me to slow in front of a particular building or corner and would sit staring into the darkness, saying nothing.

As the first hint of sun was creasing the horizon, she suddenly said, 'I'm tired.Let's go now'.
We drove in silence to the address she had given me. It was a low building, like a small convalescent home, with a driveway that passed under a portico.

Two orderlies came out to the cab as soon as we pulled up. They were solicitous and intent, watching her every move.
They must have been expecting her.

I opened the trunk and took the small suitcase to the door. The woman was already seated in a wheelchair.

'How much do I owe you?' She asked, reaching into her purse.

'Nothing,' I said

'You have to make a living,' she answered.

'There are other passengers,' I responded.

Almost without thinking, I bent and gave her a hug.She held onto me tightly.

'You gave an old woman a little moment of joy,' she said. 'Thank you.'

I squeezed her hand, and then walked into the dim morning light.. Behind me, a door shut.It was the sound of the closing of a life..

I didn't pick up any more passengers that shift. I drove aimlessly lost in thought. For the rest of that day,I could hardly talk.What if that woman had gotten an angry driver,or one who was impatient to end his shift? What if I had refused to take the run, or had honked once, then driven away?

On a quick review, I don't think that I have done anything more important in my life.

We're conditioned to think that our lives revolve around great moments.

But great moments often catch us unaware-beautifully wrapped in what others may consider a small one.

B-A-C said:

Using your two examples above... about the two different preachers. I like that.

There should be "saved" - "believers" - "Christians" whatever term you like in a "church". And maybe you believe those are the ONLY people that are actually part of the church. Maybe you are even right about this.
But even so. The fact remains... most "assemblies/congregations" have non-believers and un-saved people there. In fact, where do most un-saved people go to get saved? A building/temple/tabernacle/synagogue/house-of-God whatever you want to call it.
So saved and un-saved people have to intermingle.

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Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Spirit is moving.

I feel we are moving 'a little' nearer an understanding brother. I was told a lot when I was younger, it is not what we say it is how we say it, how true this is, except to say before I accepted the Lord I said what I said to get what I wanted, to motivate, to not cross me.

Thank the Lord he took all that away. Anyway back to the subject in hand.

First you say there should be saved believers, I agree and believe in different percentages there always will be. That gives us a good start. These born again from above are the Christians, they are the saved souls, they are the saints, but only these people are the church, the ekklesia.

How can we be so sure? Quite simply Jesus says in John 3, we must be born again, if we are not we WILL NOT SEE, we WILL NOT ENTER the Kingdom of Heaven. What do we have to do to be born again? In brief, realise we are a sinner, repent, be baptised by spirit and water, confess our faith with our lips and from our heart.

Now you will no doubt say, hang on brother, people in my congregation confess their sins every week, they say the creed, we pray together, all that is true. But does it come from the heart? Have they truly repented, have they taken up their cross, have they asked the old self to be crucified?

Clearly only God knows, but we must not forget, the Holy Spirit WILL NOT enter into the heart of a soul that has not been washed and regenerated. So if the soul is not washed and regenerated, it us not saved, it is not part of the ekklesia, it cannot be part of the Body of Christ unless sin has been washed away.

So we return to the beginning, every congregation that comes together in a place of worship and prayer will not be born again from above, so although these souls are part of the fellowship, they are not part of the church, the ekklesia.

Now we can be aware of some saved souls by their fruits, but we agree we cannot be aware of all.

With that in mind we come back to the two preacher example, it is not what we say all the time it is how we say it. Treat a congregation as saved and lost souls and preach accordingly, never treat the congregation as all saved, kt happens all to often. Don't mislead them about what a church actually is, the ekklesia or the kuriakon, the scripture based word and the none scripture based word.

Preach boldly in all truth, I am sure you do Ray. A shared a message with a brother recently, the topic was born again, it included John 3:1-21. I would never break this section of scripture up, many preach on the first part with Nicodemus, many preach on John 3:16-17, not many preach on the whole 21 verses and probably fewer on the last part. But every verse here is so Important. My dear brother in Christ said, Paul if that was preached at our church, 50% would probably not come back. Ermmm, they are away evangelical congregation.

I can only think, if 50% didn't come back, were they, are they born again? I cannot help but wonder how many places of worship would have many members left if Jonathan Edwards gave his powerful sermon on the Wrath of God.

Where are the bold preachers today? There should be more than ever as time runs out, but sadly today's sermons seem to be segments of scripture on a rotating basis, the cotton wool scriptures, the nice stories, enough to keep people in the seats or pews, but what use is it keeping the equivalent of card board cut outs in the seats, none at all.

B-A-C said:

Yes. He did. Not just every week, but every day.

Matt 26:55; In that hour Jesus said to the multitudes, "Have you come out, as against a robber, with swords and clubs to take Me? I sat daily with you, teaching in the temple, and you did not seize Me.
Mark 14:49; I was daily with you in the temple teaching, and you did not seize Me. But the Scriptures must be fulfilled."
Luke 19:47; And He was teaching daily in the temple. But the chief priests, the scribes, and the leaders of the people sought to destroy Him,
Luke 22:53; When I was with you daily in the temple, you did not try to seize Me. But this is your hour, and the power of darkness."


Luke 2:46; Now so it was that after three days they found Him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the teachers, both listening to them and asking them questions.
Matt 21:15; But when the chief priests and scribes saw the wonderful things that He did, and the children crying out in the temple and saying, "Hosanna to the Son of David!" they were indignant
Matt 21:23; Now when He came into the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people confronted Him as He was teaching, and said, "By what authority are You doing these things? And who gave You this authority?"
Matt 24:1; Then Jesus went out and departed from the temple, and His disciples came up to show Him the buildings of the temple.
Mark 11:15; So they came to Jerusalem. Then Jesus went into the temple and began to drive out those who bought and sold in the temple, and overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those who sold doves.
John 8:2 ; Now early in the morning He came again into the temple, and all the people came to Him; and He sat down and taught them.
John 18:20; Jesus answered him, "I spoke openly to the world. I always taught in synagogues and in the temple, where the Jews always meet, and in secret I have said nothing.

Matt 13:54; When He had come to His own country, He taught them in their synagogue, so that they were astonished and said, "Where did this Man get this wisdom and these mighty works?
Mark 1:21; Then they went into Capernaum, and immediately on the Sabbath He entered the synagogue and taught.
Mark 3:1; And He entered the synagogue again, and a man was there who had a withered hand.
Mark 6:2; And when the Sabbath had come, He began to teach in the synagogue. And many hearing Him were astonished, saying, "Where did this Man get these things? And what wisdom is this which is given to Him, that such mighty works are performed by His hands!
Luke 4:38; Now He arose from the synagogue and entered Simon's house. But Simon's wife's mother was sick with a high fever, and they made request of Him concerning her.
Luke 6:6; Now it happened on another Sabbath, also, that He entered the synagogue and taught. And a man was there whose right hand was withered.
John 6:59; These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum.


But even if He wouldn't have... He picked 12 disciples that followed Him everywhere. The crowds followed Him. Martha, Mary and Lazarus followed Him.
Yes Jesus went off and prayed alone sometimes. But most of the time He surrounded Himself with people. I'm not saying we can't ever be alone. But it shouldn't be our primary focus to avoid people.

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Well put brother, thank you.

Jesus came to the Jews first, ✡, hence the temple and synagogues, but from Pentecost all that changed, the church, the Body of Christ was born, Spirit filled, born again believers. And the Temple but with hands was demolished, the Temple of God is in every saved soul, in every spiritual stone, no buildings. The church, the Body of Christ is Spiritual. The time in every saved soul is Spiritual. These are key points.

Now do not mis understand what I say brother, a building was and is required, for the early Church (born again believers) they met in each others homes. As the church grew across Europe and the world, (born again believers) so did the need for larger premises to come together in.

Hence the buying fir worship was called, a church, but not the church from scripture, a new word was introduced from the latin, kuriakon.

Now this is the point, the new word is not in scripture, so to call abuilding a church causes confusion with the true church, the Body of born again believers. As stated previously some think the word came from the German word kirche, it is not totally certain but I follow the emanation it was introduced by the RCC, the reason I flow this thinking is that the RCC was translating The Word into Latin. Anyway which ever is correct doesn't matter, the fact us, it is not in scripture.

I believers the use of the word kuriakon, was the work of the devil, it causes confusion, worse than that, it attempts to take the Glory from the Spiritual Body of Christ, his church, the ekklesia, the born again believers.

Bless you

B-A-C said:

I don't know if this story is true or not. It is copied from the internet.
The word "church" doesn't appear anywhere in this story, but to me... it's about church.

=======================================

I arrived at the address and honked the horn. After waiting a few minutes I honked again. Since this was going to be my last ride of my shift I thought about just driving away, but instead I put the car in park and walked up to the door and knocked.. 'Just a minute', answered a frail, elderly voice. I could hear something being dragged across the floor.

After a long pause, the door opened. A small woman in her 90's stood before me. She was wearing a print dress and a pillbox hat with a veil pinned on it, like somebody out of a 1940's movie.

By her side was a small nylon suitcase. The apartment looked as if no one had lived in it for years. All the furniture was covered with sheets.

There were no clocks on the walls, no knickknacks or utensils on the counters. In the corner was a cardboard
box filled with photos and glassware.

'Would you carry my bag out to the car?' she said. I took the suitcase to the cab, then returned to assist the woman.

She took my arm and we walked slowly toward the curb.

She kept thanking me for my kindness. 'It's nothing', I told her.. 'I just try to treat my passengers the way I would want my mother to be treated.'

'Oh, you're such a good boy, she said. When we got in the cab, she gave me an address and then asked, 'Could you drive
through downtown?'

'It's not the shortest way,' I answered quickly..

'Oh, I don't mind,' she said. 'I'm in no hurry. I'm on my way to a hospice.

I looked in the rear-view mirror. Her eyes were glistening. 'I don't have any family left,' she continued in a soft voice..'The doctor says I don't have very long.' I quietly reached over and shut off the meter.

'What route would you like me to take?' I asked.

For the next two hours, we drove through the city. She showed me the building where she had once worked as an elevator operator.

We drove through the neighborhood where she and her husband had lived when they were newlyweds She had me pull up in front of a furniture warehouse that had once been a ballroom where she had gone dancing as a girl.

Sometimes she'd ask me to slow in front of a particular building or corner and would sit staring into the darkness, saying nothing.

As the first hint of sun was creasing the horizon, she suddenly said, 'I'm tired.Let's go now'.
We drove in silence to the address she had given me. It was a low building, like a small convalescent home, with a driveway that passed under a portico.

Two orderlies came out to the cab as soon as we pulled up. They were solicitous and intent, watching her every move.
They must have been expecting her.

I opened the trunk and took the small suitcase to the door. The woman was already seated in a wheelchair.

'How much do I owe you?' She asked, reaching into her purse.

'Nothing,' I said

'You have to make a living,' she answered.

'There are other passengers,' I responded.

Almost without thinking, I bent and gave her a hug.She held onto me tightly.

'You gave an old woman a little moment of joy,' she said. 'Thank you.'

I squeezed her hand, and then walked into the dim morning light.. Behind me, a door shut.It was the sound of the closing of a life..

I didn't pick up any more passengers that shift. I drove aimlessly lost in thought. For the rest of that day,I could hardly talk.What if that woman had gotten an angry driver,or one who was impatient to end his shift? What if I had refused to take the run, or had honked once, then driven away?

On a quick review, I don't think that I have done anything more important in my life.

We're conditioned to think that our lives revolve around great moments.

But great moments often catch us unaware-beautifully wrapped in what others may consider a small one.

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Lovely story brother, I have read another similar in the past, I also know what you arexsatong and what you feel and mean.

But, back to The Word. You are comparing our Lord's teaching, of loving others, being caring and compassionate, that is 100% spot on,we both know it Ray.

It is what we do, what we are commanded to do. But it doesn't change the facts that, if we are not born again we will not see the Kingdom of heaven, we will not enter the Kingdon if heaven. We must be born again.

If we are born again we are washed and regenerated, we are in Christ, Christ is in us, we become members, spiritual stones, in the Body of Christ, the ekklesia, the only true church.

We must not get co fusedbetween the ekklesia and the kuriakon. We must accept the Word, not additions, or use of scripture in other ways by another word being added that is not in scripture.

The question remains, do we accept The Word which clearly explains the church is the ekklesia, the 'Body of Christ' or do we accept the building is a church, called so because someone in the past introduced a word that translates the same as ekklesia?

I cannot accept anything that is not in scripture Ray.

It is not down to thinking I am right as you implied in a previous post, it is down to confirming what scripture actually says and providing the explanation based on scripture. Unless some discussions regarding scripture that can be vague, this topic is very clear, the church, the ekklesia, is the Body of Christ, being built up as Spiritual stones to become the Bride of Christ sooner than many choose to think.

In His Love

Shalom

I must also point out, when your as self isolated as I am, from a very young age, with narcissist parents, you see the world from a vastly different perspective then the rest of the population. And then the scales are removed from your eyes and you see the foolishness and futility of this time here. In the meantime I see people who go to the local Uniting Church for example, who have a poster on their noticeboard declaring that homosexuals, transgenders, hindus, buddhists etc are welcome to worship here. Really?? And then we have hillsong, an evil prosperity theology driven place with thousands turning up there every Sunday. Go to one any of these temples of Baal? No way. What God has planned for me I dont know, but it sure as heck isnt sitting in the temple of Baal every Sunday. You can only destroy the enemys stronghold from the outside, not the inside of there temple.

B-A-C said:

Jesus and the Holy Spirit live in me. Not any Earthly pastor or prophet. This is an un-biblical teaching.



Matt 9:10; Now it happened, as Jesus sat at the table in the house, that behold, many tax collectors and sinners came and sat down with Him and His disciples.
Matt 9:11; And when the Pharisees saw it, they said to His disciples, "Why does your Teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?"
Matt 11:19; The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Look, a glutton and a winebibber, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!' But wisdom is justified by her children."

Jesus hung around these people, and He loved them. It almost sounds like they are beneath you. Perhaps being "too good" to love other people is what makes us a devil.

1Jn 3:10; In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.

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It is impossible for the people your are referring to, in "Matt 9:10-11", Matt 9:11, Matt. 11:19, 1 John 3:10, are in the "Body of Christ" neither are they "Born of GOD" and Neither are they saved, but completely under "damnation"! "a Kindergarten" in Sunday School class might be familiar with that.

And in this Generation we are Living in and Those who are Born of GOD, is a Blessing handed down, Through the "Covenant of Abraham". and that is 1st graders Sunday school information.

And I already know, no one is going back me up, and they know it is the TRUTH! But maybe in a "Luke Warm" WAY.


English Standard Version
"For whoever is ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him will the Son of Man also be ashamed when he comes in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.” {keep it up, "BrideGroom" coming, Lamps burning low]

American Standard Version
And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and that he was carried away by the angels into Abraham's bosom: and the rich man also died, and was buried.

Acts 3:25
And you are sons of the prophets and of the covenant God made with your fathers when He said to Abraham, 'Through your offspring all the families of the earth will be blessed.'


AND You Said: B-A-C= " This is an un-biblical teaching." WELL, what is that Matthew and 1st John stuff you putting out?

And said this too! And getting "HIGH Fives"
Jesus hung around these people, and He loved them. It almost sounds like they are beneath you. Perhaps being "too good" to love other people is what makes us a devil.

Well Jesus must have been a liar! when he said this!
John 14:21
Whoever has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me. The one who loves Me "WILL BE" loved by My Father, AND I Will Love him and reveal Myself to him."

Jesus Love and The Fathers Love is "CONDICTIONAL" And those people you are referring to In The Gospels are UNREGENERATE sinners. And JESUS IS "Proclaiming " to Them "If you Don't Repent and Believe what i have said, you going to HELL! And HE cannot wait to leave this place, and go back to His Father!

Deuteronomy 32:5
His people have acted corruptly toward Him; the spot on them is not that of His children, but of a perverse and crooked generation.

New International Version(Matthew 17)NIV
“You unbelieving and perverse generation,” Jesus replied, “how long shall I stay with you? How long shall I put up with you? Bring the boy here to me.”

Yea, He loved them alright.

Jacob I love Esau I hated "The bonds woman shall not share with the inheritance with The Free"

Gregoryp said:

I must also point out, when your as self isolated as I am, from a very young age, with narcissist parents, you see the world from a vastly different perspective then the rest of the population. And then the scales are removed from your eyes and you see the foolishness and futility of this time here. In the meantime I see people who go to the local Uniting Church for example, who have a poster on their noticeboard declaring that homosexuals, transgenders, hindus, buddhists etc are welcome to worship here. Really?? And then we have hillsong, an evil prosperity theology driven place with thousands turning up there every Sunday. Go to one any of these temples of Baal? No way. What God has planned for me I dont know, but it sure as heck isnt sitting in the temple of Baal every Sunday. You can only destroy the enemys stronghold from the outside, not the inside of there temple.

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Sound like you are perfect portrait of one of The "sons of The Living GOD" Elijah, Elisha, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Amos, Nahum, Micah and The Apostles who finally went out one by one, and Luther, Hus, Knox, Bunyan, Calvin, Beza, Edwards, Whitfield, The Lollards, and .....The etc. Just like Jonathan Edwards said that John Calvin said, "Fret Not" 'It is a Gift from GOD" We are not called out to reach "The Masses" but to observed and it is 1 on 1. One at a time.
"One at a Time" 1 on 1. LOL! Focus!

B-A-C said:

This should be the primary sermon that the pastor preaches every week in the main service. Yes, I agree. But then people say I'm already saved, I don't need this sermon, the pastor isn't deep enough for me. He only preaches milk and not meat.

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Preaching the need to be born again is no doubt one of the most important messages in scripture,we both agree brother.

But it doesn't stop there. There are dozens of angles to preach it, what is being born again, how is it defined in scripture, born again, born anew, becoming a new creation, a ew creature, etc. Then there are the verses that relate to the washing and regeneration there is so much to preach and so many different angles to approach it.

Are we really born again, a question to all the congregation. Have we done this, have we said that, did we really mean it, do we really understand, we must understand it is a life or death situation.

Are you saved because you have come to this place of worship today, are you saved if you go to any other place of worship?

Being born again is not like taking and jacket off and putting a new one on, it is life changing, life saving. It is becoming part of the Body of Christ, the ekklesia, the Church. We cannot be part of the Body of Christ if we are still in sin.

I do not need to tell you these things brother, you know and can add more. As you once said to me Ray 'Preach it'; I share these words with you, 'Preach it, preach it boldy, preach it in Faith'

If we are not born again, we will NOT SEE the Kingdom of heaven, we will NOT ENTER the Kingdom of heaven. Quote all of John 3:1-21 what is the confusion if we are not born again, the same conclusion if we only think we are.

If we are not born again. we are still in sin, we are still unsaved, we can not be part of the Body of Christ until we are free from past sin, forgiven, washed and spiritually regenerated.

We can be part of a fellowship, we can be members of a group, a congregation, but we cannot be part of the Body of Christ, the ekklesia, the church quoted from scripture unless we are born again from above.

We must never just think we are saved, we must know we are saved and we only know that when Christ is in us and we are in him. The old self has to be crucified, we have to leave it behind, we are made knew when the spirit of God is in us, have we actuly received the spirit of God?

We are not new creations if we still have one foot in the world's ways, we still have one foot in the grave, we are not yet set free.

When Noah made the arc and preached as he did, it was not always from the same angle, not always the same way, day after day for 120 years. One day he prea hed, one day he felled trees, another day he prophesied, another day he cut and shaped the timber, another day I am sure he prayed, another day he pitched the timbers. All the time he preached he shared the message boldly, then he built on it, but as we know they didn't listen, they laughed art him.

You have people sitting in the seats listening, preach it.

You know Ray, when I was at school we used to recite the times tables, hearing and saying things over and over again makes them stay in our minds. Now I admit saying the same thing over and over again can become boring, but saying the same thing from scripture quoting the various ways it is put to us can I believe work.

The aim, I believe, is to make a point from scripture, make the congregation think, get them to question, am I really born again. The Holy Spirit spirit takes over from that point through our prayers.

Hope you don't mind me adding this Ray

In His Love

brother-paul

The " CHURCH " is the Body Of Christ.

The "Body Of Christ " is not all Christians ,in name by man, but are " only Born Again Christians by God.

In many Churches, " Acolytes" bring in lit candles to the Sanctuary ,light the main Chancel Candles at the beginning of the service, re-ight their Candles from the the Chancel Candles ( before putting out) and carry their lit Candels out of the Sanctuary at the end of the service .

This represents bringing the lite ( Jesus) in and out of the Church for the service.
It represents the people coming in an out of the Church bringing in and going out with the lite of Jesus in them.

These people are the "Church"...not all Christians are true believers!

Born Again 2004 said:

The " CHURCH " is the Body Of Christ.

The "Body Of Christ " is not all Christians ,in name by man, but are " only Born Again Christians by God.

In many Churches, " Acolytes" bring in lit candles to the Sanctuary ,light the main Chancel Candles at the beginning of the service, re-ight their Candles from the the Chancel Candles ( before putting out) and carry their lit Candels out of the Sanctuary at the end of the service .

This represents bringing the lite ( Jesus) in and out of the Church for the service.
It represents the people coming in an out of the Church bringing in and going out with the lite of Jesus in them.

These people are the "Church"...not all Christians are true believers!

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You are referring to symbols, items NOT in scripture, but introduced by the RCC.

Acolyte comes from the Greek word, akolouthos. The Bible makes no reference to an acolyte or acolytes.

The light of Christ is already in a place of worship, it is in the hearts of every born again from above believer. And only the born again spiritually washed and regenerated souls.

Shalom

Heading to my local church to go Praise and worship my Lord and savior, power in numbers when believers come together

blessing to all on this thread,

Matthew 18
19 Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. 20 For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them.”