KingJ said:

Can you name a Christian in scripture that went astray after accepting Jesus? Paul was a murderer, he accepted Jesus and his life changed 100%. He did not have to daily examine himself and say '''I better not murder, else I will lose my salvation'' . He lost all desire to murder. He battled with venial sins only Rom 7:15. As we all do.

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2Tim 4:10 For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia.

2Tim 1:15 This thou knowest, that all they which are in Asia be turned away from me; of whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes.
2Ti 1:16 The Lord give mercy unto the house of Onesiphorus; for he oft refreshed me, and was not ashamed of my chain:

Philippians 2:19 But I trust in the Lord Jesus to send Timotheus shortly unto you, that I also may be of good comfort, when I know your state.
2:20 For I have no man likeminded, who will naturally care for your state.
2:21 For all seek their own, not the things which are Jesus Christ's.

Acts 5:1 But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,
2 And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet.
Act 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
Act 5:4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
Act 5:5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.
Act 5:6 And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him.
Act 5:7 And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in.
Act 5:8 And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much.
Act 5:9 Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out.
Act 5:10 Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband.
Act 5:11 And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things.

1Tim 1:18 This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare;
1Ti 1:19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
1Ti 1:20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

1Corinthians 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
1Co 5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
1Co 5:2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
1Co 5:3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
1Co 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
1Co 5:6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?

In 2Corinthians Paul writes that the church should forgive this man and allow him to return for Godly sorrow leads to repentance.
But the issue in 1Corithians is that a Spirit-filled Pentecostal man who had been enlightened with the knowledge of God was still able to do wrong and seriously commit sin; for which to stop this pollution from spreading
he was put out of the church for a while.
But what if this man or indeed anyone in similar circumstances today never repents and chooses not to come back to God?

KingJ said:

Paul was a murderer, he accepted Jesus and his life changed 100%. He did not have to daily examine himself and say '''I better not murder, else I will lose my salvation'' . He lost all desire to murder. He battled with venial sins only Rom 7:15. As we all do.

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1:1 Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:
Philippians 3:17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an example.
3:18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:
3:19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)
3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
sounds like the prosperity gospel was preached in Philippi.

1Cor 9:27; but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.

Php 3:12; Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.
Php 3:13; Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead,
Php 3:14; I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

Gal 2:2; It was because of a revelation that I went up; and I submitted to them the gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but I did so in private to those who were of reputation, for fear that I might be running, or had run, in vain.

John 6:66; As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore.
John 6:67; So Jesus said to the twelve, "You do not want to go away also, do you?"
John 6:68; Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life.

KingJ said:

When God grafts us in, He does not make the mistake of marrying a devil.

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Matt 13:40; "So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age.
Matt 13:41; "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness,
Matt 13:42; and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

But I guess God "makes the mistake" of letting lawless people into His kingdom? I guess God "made the mistake" of putting Satan and the fallen angels in heaven?
Then again, maybe it's not a mistake.

Just came across this information posted by someone in another thread - food for thought


* Gnostic heresy was principally based of the concept that just having knowledge of God saves you. “Gnostics considered the principal element of salvation to be direct knowledge of the supreme divinity in the form of mystical or esoteric insight. Many Gnostic texts deal not in concepts of sin and repentance, but with illusion and enlightenment.”
“In most Gnostic systems, the sufficient cause of salvation is this "knowledge of" ("acquaintance with") the divine.” – Etymology, Gnosticism - Wikipedia
a bit like faith only it would seem.

Downunder said:

By mortal sin (a grave violation of God's law) man destroys charity, turns away from God, and chooses an inferior good. Venial sin offends charity but allows it to continue in the soul.

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Thanks, I "sort of" knew this, but I wanted KingJ to put it in writing.
But according to this, (and some other RC doctrine on the internet) the official doctrine of the RC church, is that they do not believe in OSAS. (so, according to KingJ, they teach satanic doctrine)

In Catholicism, Christians do not have eternal security because they can commit a mortal sin.[5] The Church teach that Christians are subject to the cleansing torment of purgatory before entrance into heaven.

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So a "mortal sin" means you have turned away from God.

So by supporting the idea of mortal and venial sin, you are opposing the idea of OSAS.
In fact, by supporting the idea of purgatory, you are opposing the idea of OSAS.

complete said:

* I was horrified recently when my words were attributed to Satan by a member in a thread of his making, for I cannot think of a worse accusation to make to a child of God. Yet that same member had previously opened a thread on loving one another!!

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Matt 16:23; But He turned and said to Peter, "Get behind Me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to Me; for you are not setting your mind on God's interests, but man's."
Mark 8:33; But turning around and seeing His disciples, He rebuked Peter and *said, "Get behind Me, Satan; for you are not setting your mind on God's interests, but man's."

Did Jesus love Peter?

Downunder said:

That sure is going to separate the chaff from the wheat.
Oh and do not think that everybody sees how you skip over and ignore weighty posts revealing the meaning of scripture from the OT.
Obviously went straight over your head.

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The OT teaches us a lot. I would never disregard any of it. One verse that shines bright out of the OT is Psalm 51:17.

It teaches us that even though by the law a mortal sinner, destined to be stoned to death, can with one decision to truly repent, be eternally saved.

KingJ said:

It teaches us that even though by the law a mortal sinner, destined to be stoned to death, can with one decision to truly repent, be eternally saved.

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That is really nice. Thank God for his mercy.
And I have repented with much contrition from time to time. Psalm 51:10-12 saved my soul after a year of tribulation beyond measure.
BUT (there is always a but) notwithstanding this mercy and grace there are those who are fully saved and Spirit-filled and have departed from the faith.
As yet some of these are not forthcoming with a broken spirit or a broken and contrite heart. Far from it. One saint has become a lesbian and claims that she is happier now than when she was in Christian fellowship.
Time is against these reprobates. For although they may eventually one day come to their senses and leave the pigsty to return, they are in mortal danger for their souls. For if they do not repent and return before they
physically die or before the day of the Lord then they are doomed. And the scriptures in the NT have many many warnings to this end.

Matthew 25:10 And while they were going to buy, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the marriage feast, and the door was shut.
Mat 25:11 Afterward the other virgins came also, saying, ‘Lord, lord, open to us.’
Mat 25:12 But he answered, ‘Truly, I say to you, I do not know you.’
Mat 25:13 Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour.

Downunder said:

2Tim 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God according to the promise of the life that is in Christ Jesus,
1:2 To Timothy, my beloved child: Grace, mercy, and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.
2Tim 2:11 The saying is trustworthy, for: If we have died with him, we will also live with him;
2:12 if we endure, we will also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us;
2:13 if we are faithless, he remains faithful— for he cannot deny himself.
Paul writing to Timothy and to other Pentecostal Christians of the church of God - not Jews, not unbelievers.

Luke 12:8 Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God:
12:9 But he that denieth me before men shall be denied before the angels of God.
Matthew 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

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This is one of the reasons for a public baptism. One who is truly saved, will have no problem declaring it publicly.

KingJ said:

This is one of the reasons for a public baptism. One who is truly saved, will have no problem declaring it publicly.

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The verses from Matthew and Luke may be about confession of faith in the waters of baptism; which is most often a public display of acceptance to become a disciple of Jesus.
However, the verses from 2Timothy are not about this.
Verse 12 is addressed to the saints under Timothy's oversight.
"If we endure" that is a call to overcome slothfulness and losing sight of the goal of salvation. Paul would not have written of this concern if it was not a problem in the church of God.
Thus he writes if we endure we will reap a reward: and what is that reward but to also reign with him.
Then Paul goes on to warn the saints that if they deny Jesus [fail, fall away, backslide; become slothful; deliberately sinning, or whatever) then there are consequences for this: he will also deny us.
This denying of us by Jesus is the judgement on those who fail to uphold their testimonies and remain faithful unto Jesus and the gospel. Denying the truth both of the Word of God and of the Spirit of truth.
If a saint cannot rule their own lives with help from the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit how can such a failed disciple expect to rule and reign with Christ Jesus when he sets up his government on Earth?
Jesus is coming back to claim the overcomers - those who overcome trials and tribulations and endure to the end.

The backslider in heart will be filled with the fruit of his ways, and a good man will be filled with the fruit of his ways. Proverbs 14:14

KingJ said:

This is one of the reasons for a public baptism. One who is truly saved, will have no problem declaring it publicly.

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Baptisms occur before a convert is saved. It is baptism that does save you.
Baptism of water and of Spirit first; then comes the translation of a person from darkness to light and into the Kingdom of God.
Believing is only the first step - believing >> repentance >> baptisms >> day one of salvation
Who hath believed and is baptized shall be saved; but who hath disbelieved shall be condemned. Mark 16:16

complete said:
* I was horrified recently when my words were attributed to Satan by a member in a thread of his making, for I cannot think of a worse accusation to make to a child of God. Yet that same member had previously opened a thread on loving one another!!

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B-A-C said:

Matt 16:23; But He turned and said to Peter, "Get behind Me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to Me; for you are not setting your mind on God's interests, but man's."
Mark 8:33; But turning around and seeing His disciples, He rebuked Peter and *said, "Get behind Me, Satan; for you are not setting your mind on God's interests, but man's."

Did Jesus love Peter?

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Hello @B-A-C,

Yes, our Lord loved Peter.

The Lord Jesus Christ is able to make righteous judgments, because He is both Son of God and Son of Man, that member had no justification in condemning me, in that manner, simply on the basis of the fact that we were not in agreement. For he is as fallible as I.

'Behold My servant, Whom I have chosen;
My Beloved, in Whom My soul is well pleased:
I will put My spirit upon Him,
and He shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.
He shall not strive, nor cry;
neither shall any man hear His voice in the streets.
A bruised reed shall he not break,
and smoking flax shall he not quench,
till He send forth judgment unto victory.
And in His name shall the Gentiles trust.'
(Mat 12:18)

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

I remember after being born again,my life did not change all the much at the start. I still had very bad language,along with a few other flaws i will not get into. After a couple of weeks an older brother in the Lord confronted me about many of my old actions. He was very nice about it,and said " Do you realize that claiming to be a true believer now requires you act like one.

A dog acts like a dog,not a cat,a fish acts like a fish not a land creature,so why do you not?? And then it hit me!!( James 1:22) Claiming to be a believer and saying you are one,does not make you one until you act like one!! So I now took Jesus very serious! He truly means what he says in his Word. Before I took the Bible as being suggestive,but now I take it as part of my life!

When I followed in his Word,it was then my life had much more meaning,and the Lord indeed did confirmed himself as I spoke to others about him.( Mark 16:20) Jesus is not hobbie,nor is being a believer a game of any kind. When, and it really does take the Holy Spirit to revel these things,as many people outside Holy Spirit tend to judge others( Rom 2:1-5) you will see your life change for the better!

Waggles said:

Luke 10:25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
10:26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
10:27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
10:28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

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Jesus was speaking to Jews. But what we can learn from this is the fact that we need to give our all. Any less is not sufficient. Note ''deny yourself'' in Matt 16:24 and the ''all the heart'' here in Luke.

You do not become a reborn Christian, Jesus does not come into our hearts unless we mean business with Him.

Anyone can get baptised in water, pray in tongues, cast out demons and heal the sick in Jesus name......but according to Jesus here, none of these matter. Thanks for the verse Waggles, good find.

B-A-C said:

Demas, Annanias, Sapphira.

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Demas abandoned Paul in a time of need. He was not a born again Christian. He was a classic example of those who tasted of Jesus and rejected Him.

Annanias and Sapphira committed a mortal sin. By not giving their full share they were stifling the growth and success of the early church. They were devils.

God is not a fool who would have asked the Holy Spirit to give any of these a revelation of Jesus. Washed clean in His blood. Grafted into His family. Made them new creations.

We would. We are fools. We marry devils and make terrible mistakes often. God is not a fool like us. He is God. It is hard to grasp, you are all in my prayers.

Do you know of any others? I am looking for someone we know that for a fact ''actually'' served God. Someone who was '''actually'' capable of fulfilling Matt 16:24.

B-A-C said:

What exactly is a venial sin?

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Mostly those sins that did not warrant capital punishment in the OT.

God does not change Heb 23:19. He still hates certain sins over others.

Downunder said:

OH that is only for the initiated - those of us who grew up with a RC catechism; full of how to live rules and doctrine broken down into digestible amounts.
You do not know what you missed out on. Religious instruction classes were the font of many amazing imaginative convolutions of doctrinal questions about "what if" someone was going to get baptised and on the way the died in a car accident. But the Master of the lesson always had an answer: for the Jesuits and the Dominicans had thought up every scenario and written an answer suitable for any question from troublesome youngsters.
From the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Simplified
Distinguishing Mortal and Venial Sins (1854-1855)
The distinction between mortal and venial sins is evident from Scripture, part of the Church's Tradition, and corroborated by experience.
By mortal sin (a grave violation of God's law) man destroys charity, turns away from God, and chooses an inferior good. Venial sin offends charity but allows it to continue in the soul.
Explaining Mortal Sin (1856)
Mortal sin, because it attacks charity, requires God's mercy and a conversion of heart. This is normally accomplished in the sacrament of Reconciliation. When the will chooses something which is incompatible with love for God (such as blasphemy) or against love for neighbour (homicide or adultery) the sin is mortal.
"When the will is set upon a disorder not totally opposed to charity (as thoughtlessness) such sins are venial" (St. Thomas Aquinas).

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Not sure why you have such a hang up with cross questioning and having answers to questions ready. If a belief does not survive rational scriptural arguments, it does not survive rational scriptural arguments.

Mortal and venial sins is scripturally sound. Open a new thread, I don't mind sharing my truly bullet proof case for it .

B-A-C said:

1Cor 9:27; but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.

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Disqualified from preaching BAC. ''Preaching''!!!

Not ''I committed a venial sin, I committed another venial sin, oh no, I tried my best for God, I gave Him my all, now He is going to send me to hell for all eternity''

Spamming scripture with zero discernment is spamming scripture with zero discernment.