Again but stated differently, reason for sin not being charged to God's elect is because Christ died and is risen again!


34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Brightfame52 said:

Yes if you claim you are saved because you used your faith to get saved that is salvation by your work. Real faith is the Gift of God, the fruit of the Spirit Gal 5 22.

Click to expand...

You really NEED to stop studying the Word with your intellect and start relying on the Holy Spirit to teach you. Believing/Trusting is not work or a work. Its simply resting on Gods Word. Resting.

Born Again 2004 said:

Your sarcasm is unwarranted! Faith and belief are the different sides of the same coin regardless, they come from God.
Ephesians 2:8-9.
Do you have belief?
Did it come from God or did you produce it?

Click to expand...

What did I just answer you above..Faith, which is simply belief comes from hearing the Word...Jesus is the Word...thus...Faith comes from Jesus....Do you believe? Are YOU saved?

Admon Mikha'el said:

You really NEED to stop studying the Word with your intellect and start relying on the Holy Spirit to teach you. Believing/Trusting is not work or a work. Its simply resting on Gods Word. Resting.

Click to expand...

Yes it is a work, its something you do. If you contribute anything you do to getting saved, you boast of salvation by your works. Its a form of boasting and pride if you like it or not.

Admon Mikha'el said:

Believing/Trusting is not work or a work. Its simply resting on Gods Word. Resting.

Click to expand...

Still, even Jesus said faith was a work.

John 6:28; Therefore they said to Him, “What are we to do, so that we may accomplish the works of God?”
John 6:29; Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”

The entire "faith chapter" of the Bible (Hebrews 11) gives examples of faith by works as well.

4 By faith Abel offered to God a better sacrifice than Cain, through which he was attested to be righteous, God testifying about his gifts, and through faith, though he is dead, he still speaks.
5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death; and he was not found because God took him up; for before he was taken up, he was attested to have been pleasing to God.
6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for the one who comes to God must believe that He exists, and that He proves to be One who rewards those who seek Him.
7 By faith Noah, being warned by God about things not yet seen, in reverence prepared an ark for the salvation of his household, by which he condemned the world, and became an heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.
8 By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed by going out to a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he left, not knowing where he was going.
9 By faith he lived as a stranger in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, living in tents with Isaac and Jacob, fellow heirs of the same promise;
10 for he was looking for the city which has foundations, whose architect and builder is God.
11 By faith even Sarah herself received ability to conceive, even beyond the proper time of life, since she considered Him faithful who had promised.

17 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and the one who had received the promises was offering up his only son;
18 it was he to whom it was said, “Through Isaac your descendants shall be named.”
19 He considered that God is able to raise people even from the dead, from which he also received him back as a type.
20 By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau, even regarding things to come.
21 By faith Jacob, as he was dying, blessed each of the sons of Joseph, and worshiped, leaning on the top of his staff.
22 By faith Joseph, when he was dying, made mention of the exodus of the sons of Israel, and gave orders concerning his bones.

23 By faith Moses, when he was born, was hidden for three months by his parents, because they saw he was a beautiful child; and they were not afraid of the king’s edict.
24 By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter,
25 choosing rather to endure ill-treatment with the people of God than to enjoy the temporary pleasures of sin,
26 considering the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures of Egypt; for he was looking to the reward.
27 By faith he left Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king; for he persevered, as though seeing Him who is unseen.
28 By faith he kept the Passover and the sprinkling of the blood, so that the destroyer of the firstborn would not touch them.
29 By faith they passed through the Red Sea as through dry land; and the Egyptians, when they attempted it, were drowned.

30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell down after the Israelites had marched around them for seven days.
31 By faith the prostitute Rahab did not perish along with those who were disobedient, after she had hidden the spies in peace.

Building an ark, traveling to a foreign country, marching around a city 7 times, painting blood over your door, refusing to be a prince of Egypt and wandering around the desert.... these things sound like work to me.

James 2:14; What use is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone says he has faith, but he has no works? Can that faith save him? ?
James 2:17; In the same way, faith also, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.
James 2:20; But are you willing to acknowledge, you foolish person, that faith without works is useless?
James 2:21; Was our father Abraham not justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar?
22 You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;
23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “And Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called a friend of God.
24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
25 In the same way, was Rahab the prostitute not justified by works also when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?
26 For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

B-A-C said:

Still, even Jesus said faith was a work.

John 6:28; Therefore they said to Him, “What are we to do, so that we may accomplish the works of God?”
John 6:29; Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”

The entire "faith chapter" of the Bible (Hebrews 11) gives examples of faith by works as well.

4 By faith Abel offered to God a better sacrifice than Cain, through which he was attested to be righteous, God testifying about his gifts, and through faith, though he is dead, he still speaks.
5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death; and he was not found because God took him up; for before he was taken up, he was attested to have been pleasing to God.
6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for the one who comes to God must believe that He exists, and that He proves to be One who rewards those who seek Him.
7 By faith Noah, being warned by God about things not yet seen, in reverence prepared an ark for the salvation of his household, by which he condemned the world, and became an heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.
8 By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed by going out to a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he left, not knowing where he was going.
9 By faith he lived as a stranger in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, living in tents with Isaac and Jacob, fellow heirs of the same promise;
10 for he was looking for the city which has foundations, whose architect and builder is God.
11 By faith even Sarah herself received ability to conceive, even beyond the proper time of life, since she considered Him faithful who had promised.

17 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and the one who had received the promises was offering up his only son;
18 it was he to whom it was said, “Through Isaac your descendants shall be named.”
19 He considered that God is able to raise people even from the dead, from which he also received him back as a type.
20 By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau, even regarding things to come.
21 By faith Jacob, as he was dying, blessed each of the sons of Joseph, and worshiped, leaning on the top of his staff.
22 By faith Joseph, when he was dying, made mention of the exodus of the sons of Israel, and gave orders concerning his bones.

23 By faith Moses, when he was born, was hidden for three months by his parents, because they saw he was a beautiful child; and they were not afraid of the king’s edict.
24 By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter,
25 choosing rather to endure ill-treatment with the people of God than to enjoy the temporary pleasures of sin,
26 considering the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures of Egypt; for he was looking to the reward.
27 By faith he left Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king; for he persevered, as though seeing Him who is unseen.
28 By faith he kept the Passover and the sprinkling of the blood, so that the destroyer of the firstborn would not touch them.
29 By faith they passed through the Red Sea as through dry land; and the Egyptians, when they attempted it, were drowned.

30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell down after the Israelites had marched around them for seven days.
31 By faith the prostitute Rahab did not perish along with those who were disobedient, after she had hidden the spies in peace.

Building an ark, traveling to a foreign country, marching around a city 7 times, painting blood over your door, refusing to be a prince of Egypt and wandering around the desert.... these things sound like work to me.

James 2:14; What use is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone says he has faith, but he has no works? Can that faith save him? ?
James 2:17; In the same way, faith also, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.
James 2:20; But are you willing to acknowledge, you foolish person, that faith without works is useless?
James 2:21; Was our father Abraham not justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar?
22 You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;
23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “And Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called a friend of God.
24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
25 In the same way, was Rahab the prostitute not justified by works also when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?
26 For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

Click to expand...

Oh Wow! So are we talking about faith here? Or works? Faith is like the battery that gives power to your engine to get your car running...The engine produces the effort. Jesus gave us the faith to give us the "energy" to reach our and receive salvation...His faith gives us "energy" to give to the poor, to support the widow, to heal the sick, to cast out demons and so on...Faith is the key not the work. Without trusting God we could not/would not do anything.

Brightfame52 said:

Yes it is a work, its something you do. If you contribute anything you do to getting saved, you boast of salvation by your works. Its a form of boasting and pride if you like it or not.

Click to expand...

You did not contribute anything to your getting saved. Nothing at all. Jesus provided the salvation and Jesus provided the faith to receive it...What did you do? You said yes, and He dropped it into you.

Admon Mikha'el said:

Without trusting God we could not/would not do anything.

Click to expand...

And yet.. many atheists, non-Christians give to charities, help the poor, feed the hungry and give clothing to the needy.
Works alone don't save anyone either.

B-A-C said:

And yet.. many atheists, non-Christians give to charities, help the poor, feed the hungry and give clothing to the needy.
Works alone don't save anyone either.

Click to expand...

Yes they do...Why do they give, 1 Tax writeoffs 2 Pride Agreed many of them feel bad for the poor. But they all ride on the two reasons I gave. And I agree...Works don't bring anyone salvation. We do the works of faith in that we trust God when He shows us a need, and what He wants us to do....Many times it will look impossible, or dangerous or whatever, but because we trust Him, we go forward anyway. The Work is the work, faith is only the key to getting it done....And its ALL His faith working in us. When we do the works of faith its like we're planting a seed.....It grows....and we can believe Him for ever bigger and better things

Admon Mikha'el said:

You did not contribute anything to your getting saved. Nothing at all. Jesus provided the salvation and Jesus provided the faith to receive it...

Click to expand...

Getting saved... no you're right. Staying saved... it costs us everything.

Luke 14:27; "Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple.
Luke 14:28; "For which one of you, when he wants to build a tower, does not first sit down and calculate the cost to see if he has enough to complete it?
Luke 14:29; "Otherwise, when he has laid a foundation and is not able to finish, all who observe it begin to ridicule him,
Luke 14:30; saying, 'This man began to build and was not able to finish.'
Luke 14:31; "Or what king, when he sets out to meet another king in battle, will not first sit down and consider whether he is strong enough with ten thousand men to encounter the one coming against him with twenty thousand?
Luke 14:32; "Or else, while the other is still far away, he sends a delegation and asks for terms of peace.
Luke 14:33; "So then, none of you can be My disciple who does not give up all his own possessions.

Can you tell me what these two parables mean to you?

Matt 25:14 "For it is just like a man about to go on a journey, who called his own slaves and entrusted his possessions to them.
Matt 25:15 "To one he gave five talents, to another, two, and to another, one, each according to his own ability; and he went on his journey.
Matt 25:16 "Immediately the one who had received the five talents went and traded with them, and gained five more talents.
Matt 25:17 "In the same manner the one who had received the two talents gained two more.
Matt 25:18 "But he who received the one talent went away, and dug a hole in the ground and hid his master's money.
Matt 25:19 "Now after a long time the master of those slaves *came and *settled accounts with them.
Matt 25:20 "The one who had received the five talents came up and brought five more talents, saying, 'Master, you entrusted five talents to me. See, I have gained five more talents.'
Matt 25:21 "His master said to him, 'Well done, good and faithful slave. You were faithful with a few things, I will put you in charge of many things; enter into the joy of your master.'
Matt 25:22 "Also the one who had received the two talents came up and said, 'Master, you entrusted two talents to me. See, I have gained two more talents.'
Matt 25:23 "His master said to him, 'Well done, good and faithful slave. You were faithful with a few things, I will put you in charge of many things; enter into the joy of your master.'
Matt 25:24 "And the one also who had received the one talent came up and said, 'Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow and gathering where you scattered no seed.
Matt 25:25 'And I was afraid, and went away and hid your talent in the ground. See, you have what is yours.'
Matt 25:26 "But his master answered and said to him, 'You wicked, lazy slave, you knew that I reap where I did not sow and gather where I scattered no seed.
Matt 25:27 'Then you ought to have put my money in the bank, and on my arrival I would have received my money back with interest.
Matt 25:28 'Therefore take away the talent from him, and give it to the one who has the ten talents.'
Matt 25:29 "For to everyone who has, more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away.
Matt 25:30 "Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Mat 25:31 "But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne.
Mat 25:32 "All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats;
Mat 25:33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.
Mat 25:34 "Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
Mat 25:35 'For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in;
Mat 25:36 naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.'
Mat 25:37 "Then the righteous will answer Him, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink?
Mat 25:38 'And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You?
Mat 25:39 'When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?'
Mat 25:40 "The King will answer and say to them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.'
Mat 25:41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
Mat 25:42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink;
Mat 25:43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.'
Mat 25:44 "Then they themselves also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?'
Mat 25:45 "Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.'
Mat 25:46 "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

B-A-C said:

Getting saved... no you're right. Staying saved... it costs us everything.

Luke 14:27; "Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple.
Luke 14:28; "For which one of you, when he wants to build a tower, does not first sit down and calculate the cost to see if he has enough to complete it?
Luke 14:29; "Otherwise, when he has laid a foundation and is not able to finish, all who observe it begin to ridicule him,
Luke 14:30; saying, 'This man began to build and was not able to finish.'
Luke 14:31; "Or what king, when he sets out to meet another king in battle, will not first sit down and consider whether he is strong enough with ten thousand men to encounter the one coming against him with twenty thousand?
Luke 14:32; "Or else, while the other is still far away, he sends a delegation and asks for terms of peace.
Luke 14:33; "So then, none of you can be My disciple who does not give up all his own possessions.

Can you tell me what these two parables mean to you?

Matt 25:14 "For it is just like a man about to go on a journey, who called his own slaves and entrusted his possessions to them.
Matt 25:15 "To one he gave five talents, to another, two, and to another, one, each according to his own ability; and he went on his journey.
Matt 25:16 "Immediately the one who had received the five talents went and traded with them, and gained five more talents.
Matt 25:17 "In the same manner the one who had received the two talents gained two more.
Matt 25:18 "But he who received the one talent went away, and dug a hole in the ground and hid his master's money.
Matt 25:19 "Now after a long time the master of those slaves *came and *settled accounts with them.
Matt 25:20 "The one who had received the five talents came up and brought five more talents, saying, 'Master, you entrusted five talents to me. See, I have gained five more talents.'
Matt 25:21 "His master said to him, 'Well done, good and faithful slave. You were faithful with a few things, I will put you in charge of many things; enter into the joy of your master.'
Matt 25:22 "Also the one who had received the two talents came up and said, 'Master, you entrusted two talents to me. See, I have gained two more talents.'
Matt 25:23 "His master said to him, 'Well done, good and faithful slave. You were faithful with a few things, I will put you in charge of many things; enter into the joy of your master.'
Matt 25:24 "And the one also who had received the one talent came up and said, 'Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow and gathering where you scattered no seed.
Matt 25:25 'And I was afraid, and went away and hid your talent in the ground. See, you have what is yours.'
Matt 25:26 "But his master answered and said to him, 'You wicked, lazy slave, you knew that I reap where I did not sow and gather where I scattered no seed.
Matt 25:27 'Then you ought to have put my money in the bank, and on my arrival I would have received my money back with interest.
Matt 25:28 'Therefore take away the talent from him, and give it to the one who has the ten talents.'
Matt 25:29 "For to everyone who has, more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away.
Matt 25:30 "Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Mat 25:31 "But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne.
Mat 25:32 "All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats;
Mat 25:33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.
Mat 25:34 "Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
Mat 25:35 'For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in;
Mat 25:36 naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.'
Mat 25:37 "Then the righteous will answer Him, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink?
Mat 25:38 'And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You?
Mat 25:39 'When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?'
Mat 25:40 "The King will answer and say to them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.'
Mat 25:41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
Mat 25:42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink;
Mat 25:43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.'
Mat 25:44 "Then they themselves also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?'
Mat 25:45 "Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.'
Mat 25:46 "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Click to expand...

Interesting....We do not have the right to sit on our hands and do nothing when we get saved do we? Jesus invested Himself into us, and we NEED to go out and continue HIs work in the World. We need to multiply the gift we are given....By faith we sow our salvation into others. don't we? So then, What is salvation, and How do we invest it?

Admon Mikha'el said:

faith is only the key to getting it done....And its ALL His faith working in us. When we do the works of faith its like we're planting a seed.....It grows....and we can believe Him for ever bigger and better things

Click to expand...

Luke 8:13; "Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.
Luke 8:14; "The seed which fell among the thorns, these are the ones who have heard, and as they go on their way they are choked with worries and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to maturity.

All seeds that start to grow and start to bear fruit do not finish what they start.
Is it Jesus's fault they fell away and quit believing, or was it their own fault?

We can't bear any fruit without Jesus, that's true, but did the second seed start to bear fruit? Yet it did not finish the fruit.

Luke 13:6; And He began telling this parable: "A man had a fig tree which had been planted in his vineyard; and he came looking for fruit on it and did not find any.
Luke 13:7; "And he said to the vineyard-keeper, 'Behold, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?'
Luke 13:8; "And he answered and said to him, 'Let it alone, sir, for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer;
Luke 13:9; and if it bears fruit next year, fine; but if not, cut it down.'"

You can't bear fruit without Jesus, but even with Jesus helping some people, fertilizing them, watering them, plowing their soil... they still refuse to bear fruit.

B-A-C said:

Luke 8:13; "Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.
Luke 8:14; "The seed which fell among the thorns, these are the ones who have heard, and as they go on their way they are choked with worries and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to maturity.

All seeds that start to grow and start to bear fruit do not finish what they start.
Is it Jesus's fault they fell away and quit believing, or was it their own fault?

We can't bear any fruit without Jesus, that's true, but did the second seed start to bear fruit? Yet it did not finish the fruit.

Luke 13:6; And He began telling this parable: "A man had a fig tree which had been planted in his vineyard; and he came looking for fruit on it and did not find any.
Luke 13:7; "And he said to the vineyard-keeper, 'Behold, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?'
Luke 13:8; "And he answered and said to him, 'Let it alone, sir, for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer;
Luke 13:9; and if it bears fruit next year, fine; but if not, cut it down.'"

You can't bear fruit without Jesus, but even with Jesus helping some people, fertilizing them, watering them, plowing their soil... they still refuse to bear fruit.

Click to expand...

True....our free will often get in the way doesn't it....So the question comes to mind....Who do we listen to? Jesus or the Dark One?

Admon Mikha'el said:

So then, What is salvation, and How do we invest it?

Click to expand...

You use the gifts God gave you. It can be simple witnessing, visiting the sick, feeding the poor. It could be singing or teaching.
It could be mowing someone's grass or taking out their trash. It could be cleaning a church. It could be giving (tithing).
It could be any or all of the above.

Even posting messages here on TalkJesus is a work/ministry of sorts.

B-A-C said:

You use the gifts God gave you. It can be simple witnessing, visiting the sick, feeding the poor. It could be singing or teaching.
It could be mowing someone's grass or taking out their trash. It could be cleaning a church. It could be giving (tithing).
It could be any or all of the above.

Even posting messages here on TalkJesus is a work/ministry of sorts.

Click to expand...

I agree....Have you noticed that the majority of Jesus work did not involve a lot of speaking? His life was His main witness...What He did. and Yes...TJ can be a ministry too.

Admon Mikha'el said:

What did I just answer you above..Faith, which is simply belief comes from hearing the Word...Jesus is the Word...thus...Faith comes from Jesus....Do you believe? Are YOU saved?

Click to expand...

Yes I am and I too believe in God's word: Ephesians 2: 8-9

Born Again 2004 said:

Yes I am and I too believe in God's word: Ephesians 2: 8-9

Click to expand...

I'm really glad to know this.

Admon Mikha'el said:

I'm really glad to know this.

Click to expand...

So, you either don't believe
Ephesians 2:8-9 you don't agree what it says or you don't understand it!

Born Again 2004 said:

So, you either don't believe
Ephesians 2:8-9 you don't agree what it says or you don't understand it!

Click to expand...

It seems he is agreeing with you here.
Just curious, do you also believe verse 10 here?

Eph 2:10; For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Born Again 2004 said:

So, you either don't believe
Ephesians 2:8-9 you don't agree what it says or you don't understand it!

Click to expand...

God didn't so much as give you Grace as he gave you the "gift" of Grace which was belief...without this gift you would not be believing. You did not create belief...that would be something you did and...that My friend is works and YOU could boast!